Infallibility is an attribute of a statement rather than of a person.

ebia

Senior Contributor
Jul 6, 2004
41,711
2,142
A very long way away. Sometimes even further.
✟54,775.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Politics
AU-Greens
In religion infallible statements usually relate to things that are not visible and often are not delectable by any physical instrumentality. For example "Jehovah is our God and Jehovah is one" is regarded as infallible revealed truth but no physical instrument or any physical sense can verify it, as far as I know.
Why would anyone put infallible in there? It seems at best superflouous, and possibly inappropriate.

Not that I'm a fan of words like infallible or inerrant, but most usually they are used of a source, rather than of the truth itself.
 
Upvote 0

MoreCoffee

Repentance works.
Jan 8, 2011
29,850
2,841
Near the flying spaghetti monster
✟57,848.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Why would anyone put infallible in there? It seems at best superfluous, and possibly inappropriate.

Not that I'm a fan of words like infallible or inerrant, but most usually they are used of a source, rather than of the truth itself.

Well, it is the source, it is a quote from holy scripture.
 
Upvote 0

ebia

Senior Contributor
Jul 6, 2004
41,711
2,142
A very long way away. Sometimes even further.
✟54,775.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Politics
AU-Greens
Well, it is the source, it is a quote from holy scripture.
Exactly. Scripture, or deuteronomy, would be said to be infallible.
"YHWH is God, YHWH alone" is a quote from infallible scripture.
The truth it points to is just true.
 
Upvote 0

Rick Otto

The Dude Abides
Nov 19, 2002
34,112
7,406
On The Prairie
✟29,593.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I'm not sure what that's supposed to mean.

You asked for a list. Does the list need to be infallible? Also, does it need to be exhaustive?

Already you need complexities resolved before we have a simple list.
It appears reflexive, defensive, and misleading, unconscious or not.

Here we are insisting on a tightly contextualized use of the word "infallible", and I am confronted with an attempt to use the same term as a common adjective.
Can a list be unquestionably correct, or any stated fact for that matter, without it being issued ex-cathedra?
We are using the term in an attempt to understand what it means.
Using it as a casual adjective is counterproductive in this discussion.
Thank you.

One need look no further than the OP to discern this. :p
 
Upvote 0

Rick Otto

The Dude Abides
Nov 19, 2002
34,112
7,406
On The Prairie
✟29,593.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
If one's car is in fact parked outside - which is the condition for the statement "my car is parked outside" to be true - then the statement is infallible is it not? And if the car is not parked outside (one wonders where it is if it is not outside [of the room in which the statement is made]) then the statement is not true nor infallible is it? ;)

I thought this thread was about what Roman Catholicism teaches about infallibility.
Something about ex-cathedra statement regarding faith and morals.

I must learn to temper my expectations...
 
Upvote 0

Rick Otto

The Dude Abides
Nov 19, 2002
34,112
7,406
On The Prairie
✟29,593.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Why would anyone put infallible in there? It seems at best superflouous, and possibly inappropriate.

Not that I'm a fan of words like infallible or inerrant, but most usually they are used of a source, rather than of the truth itself.

Exactly. Thank you, ebia.

BTW, just a heads up in case it happens to you...
My auto correct made ebia into Ebola. lol
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Whatever it means, one would think it important enough to be clear about, and the one thing that would help the most does not to my knowledge, exist: a list of infallible statements that have been made.

I believe the lack of clarity to be unconsciously intentional so as to allow wiggle room, and history records a whole lot of wiggling.

I think it's more the case that no one can say which are which.

After the declaration of Papal Infallibility in the late 1800s, there have been only two ex cathedra proclamations. They are deemed to be infallible, but the premise was that infallibility inheres in the Papacy. So what do we say of the many Papal declarations in the past when the exact mechanism that we call ex cathedra wasn't in place? This is important because any Catholic will say that the Pope isn't automatically infallible in everything he says publicly, just when he makes an ex cathedra declaration.

"The church" obviously cannot say that no such decrees in the past were infallible if the recent decision by Vatican I claimed that the power has always been there--which it must or else admit to being what Protestants are always charged with (innovators, not Apostolic, etc). But, at the same time, it has no way of assessing the decrees of the past, some of which were called infallible by the popes, some of which were later renounced by the church, and many were simply announced.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,307
10,595
Georgia
✟909,820.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
I am not inviting a discussion about this or that specific papal statement. The intent of the original post is clear. It is about definition and accuracy. One ought to refrain from representing the faith of others especially when one's representations are not accurate. That is the point of the OP's first paragraph. The remaining paragraphs are about two specific passages in holy scripture.

lectures are fine as far as they go. In the OP the quote from Matt 16 is a chapter where Christ turns to Peter and says "get thee behind Me Satan you are an offense to Me" --- so then - far from perfect.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,307
10,595
Georgia
✟909,820.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
I think it's more the case that no one can say which are which.

After the declaration of Papal Infallibility in the late 1800s, there have been only two ex cathedra proclamations. .

Was the statement in the 1800's "the RCC now supposes that the Popes have just acquired infallibility so watch out if one says something ex cathedra"? I think we all agree that they were not claiming to "start the ability by that statement"
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,307
10,595
Georgia
✟909,820.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Exactly. Scripture, or deuteronomy, would be said to be infallible.
"YHWH is God, YHWH alone" is a quote from infallible scripture.
The truth it points to is just true.

Which is why we engage in sola-scriptura testing of all tradition and doctrine.

And it is why Christ could so thoroughly hammer the tradition of the magisterium of his day in Mark 7:6-13
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ebia

Senior Contributor
Jul 6, 2004
41,711
2,142
A very long way away. Sometimes even further.
✟54,775.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Politics
AU-Greens
Which is why we engage in sola-scriptura testing of all tradition and doctrine.
I didn't say scripture was the only infallible source.
For that matter I wasn't even affirming that scripture is infallible.

I'm probing what the word infallible means.
 
Upvote 0

MoreCoffee

Repentance works.
Jan 8, 2011
29,850
2,841
Near the flying spaghetti monster
✟57,848.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
lectures are fine as far as they go. In the OP the quote from Matt 16 is a chapter where Christ turns to Peter and says "get thee behind Me Satan you are an offense to Me" --- so then - far from perfect.

Who said that saint Peter was perfect?

It is helpful not to confuse infallible in statements made excathedra with impeccable in life.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,307
10,595
Georgia
✟909,820.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Who said that saint Peter was perfect?

It is helpful not to confuse infallible in statements made excathedra with impeccable in life.

The OP directs us to statements made by Christ to Peter in Matt 16 --they point to Peter as flawed in some ways. And of course Peter goes on to fallibly deny Christ 3 times. But that does not mean that Peter is a "bad Apostle" in fact he is one of the 3 at the top - given the task of evangelizing the Jews while Paul evangelized the gentiles.

Scripture is indeed infallible - because it comes from God.

Not because it was supposedly pronounced to be so in the 1800's.

in Christ,

Bob
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,307
10,595
Georgia
✟909,820.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
I thought this thread was about what Roman Catholicism teaches about infallibility.
Something about ex-cathedra statement regarding faith and morals.

I must learn to temper my expectations...

As far as I know --only the RCC does that.
 
Upvote 0

MoreCoffee

Repentance works.
Jan 8, 2011
29,850
2,841
Near the flying spaghetti monster
✟57,848.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
The OP directs us to statements made by Christ to Peter in Matt 16 --they point to Peter as flawed in some ways. And of course Peter goes on to fallibly deny Christ 3 times. But that does not mean that Peter is a "bad Apostle" in fact he is one of the 3 at the top - given the task of evangelizing the Jews while Paul evangelized the gentiles.

Scripture is indeed infallible - because it comes from God.

Not because it was supposedly pronounced to be so in the 1800's.

in Christ,

Bob

It is dangerous to lift statements in holy scripture out of their context to prove one's theology. Saint Peter said "You are the Christ the Son of the living God" and that was true, was it not, infallible revelation from God as the Lord Jesus Christ explained when he said "Simon son of Jonah, you are a blessed man! Because it was no human agency that revealed this to you but my Father in heaven". The context explains the meaning. But when verses are taken out of their context beware of what will be said of them.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ebia

Senior Contributor
Jul 6, 2004
41,711
2,142
A very long way away. Sometimes even further.
✟54,775.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Politics
AU-Greens
It is dangerous to lift statements in holy scripture out of their context to prove one's theology. Saint Peter said "You are the Christ the Son of the living God" and that was true, was it not, infallible revelation from God as the Lord Jesus Christ explained when he said "Simon son of Jonah, you are a blessed man! Because it was no human agency that revealed this to you but my Father in heaven".

Peter's statement is true.
But I don't think its right to apply the word infallible to either the idea nor to Peter's saying it.
The gospel that tells us the story is what is normally said to be infallible.

On the other hand if someone thinks Peter wrote either or both of the two epistles that bear his name then you could cite those as the fallible Peter writing an infallible text.
 
Upvote 0

MoreCoffee

Repentance works.
Jan 8, 2011
29,850
2,841
Near the flying spaghetti monster
✟57,848.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Peter's statement is true.
But I don't think its right to apply the word infallible to either the idea nor to Peter's saying it.
The gospel that tells us the story is what is normally said to be infallible.

On the other hand if someone thinks Peter wrote either or both of the two epistles that bear his name then you could cite those as the fallible Peter writing an infallible text.

In the case of Matthew 16:16-17 it is a distinction without a difference that seeks to separate the infallible revelation given to saint Peter from the true words spoken by saint Peter. In fact the tendency in Christianity is to regard the entire book of saint Matthew as infallible revelation from God.

The New Advent web site presents the following as a kind of synopsis of Catholic teaching on infallibility.
In general, exemption or immunity from liability to error or failure; in particular in theological usage, the supernatural prerogative by which the Church of Christ is, by a special Divine assistance, preserved from liability to error in her definitive dogmatic teaching regarding matters of faith and morals.​
(See here)
 
Upvote 0

ebia

Senior Contributor
Jul 6, 2004
41,711
2,142
A very long way away. Sometimes even further.
✟54,775.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Politics
AU-Greens
In the case of Matthew 16:16-17 it is a distinction without a difference that seeks to separate the infallible revelation given to saint Peter from the true words spoken by saint Peter. ...
I'm not separating the revelation from the words.
Rather I'm challenging your overuse of the word infallible.


The revelation to Peter is true. His words express a truth.
But "infallible" is the wrong adjective to talk about that.
 
Upvote 0

MoreCoffee

Repentance works.
Jan 8, 2011
29,850
2,841
Near the flying spaghetti monster
✟57,848.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
I'm not separating the revelation from the words.
Rather I'm challenging your overuse of the word infallible.


The revelation to Peter is true. His words express a truth.
But "infallible" is the wrong adjective to talk about that.

I do not agree.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

MoreCoffee

Repentance works.
Jan 8, 2011
29,850
2,841
Near the flying spaghetti monster
✟57,848.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
The following portion of the article in the Catholic Encyclopaedia may be helpful.
Catholic Encyclopaedia from 1917 AD said:
True meaning of infallibility

It is well to begin by stating the ecclesiological truths that are assumed to be established before the question of infallibility arises. It is assumed:
  • that Christ founded His Church as a visible and perfect society;
  • that He intended it to be absolutely universal and imposed upon all men a solemn obligation actually to belong to it, unless inculpable ignorance should excuse them;
  • that He wished this Church to be one, with a visible corporate unity of faith, government, and worship; and that
  • in order to secure this threefold unity, He bestowed on the Apostles and their legitimate successors in the hierarchy — and on them exclusively — the plenitude of teaching, governing, and liturgical powers with which He wished this Church to be endowed.
And this being assumed, the question that concerns us is whether, and in what way, and to what extent, Christ has made His Church to be infallible in the exercise of her doctrinal authority.

It is only in connection with doctrinal authority as such that, practically speaking, this question of infallibility arises; that is to say, when we speak of the Church's infallibility we mean, at least primarily and principally, what is sometimes called active as distinguished from passive infallibility. We mean in other words that the Church is infallible in her objective definitive teaching regarding faith and morals, not that believers are infallible in their subjective interpretation of her teaching. This is obvious in the case of individuals, any one of whom may err in his understanding of the Church's teaching; nor is the general or even unanimous consent of the faithful in believing a distinct and independent organ of infallibility. Such consent indeed, when it can be verified as apart, is of the highest value as a proof of what has been, or may be, defined by the teaching authority, but, except in so far as it is thus the subjective counterpart and complement of objective authoritative teaching, it cannot be said to possess an absolutely decisive dogmatic value. It will be best therefore to confine our attention to active infallibility as such, as by so doing we shall avoid the confusion which is the sole basis of many of the objections that are most persistently and most plausibly urged against the doctrine of ecclesiastical infallibility.

Infallibility must be carefully distinguished both from Inspiration and from Revelation.

Inspiration signifies a special positive Divine influence and assistance by reason of which the human agent is not merely preserved from liability to error but is so guided and controlled that what he says or writes is truly the word of God, that God Himself is the principal author of the inspired utterance; but infallibility merely implies exemption from liability to error. God is not the author of a merely infallible, as He is of an inspired, utterance; the former remains a merely human document.

Revelation, on the other hand, means the making known by God, supernaturally of some truth hitherto unknown, or at least not vouched for by Divine authority; whereas infallibility is concerned with the interpretation and effective safeguarding of truths already revealed. Hence when we say, for example, that some doctrine defined by the pope or by an ecumenical council is infallible, we mean merely that its inerrancy is Divinely guaranteed according to the terms of Christ's promise to His Church, not that either the pope or the Fathers of the Council are inspired as were the writers of the Bible or that any new revelation is embodied in their teaching.

It is well further to explain:
  • that infallibility means more than exemption from actual error; it means exemption from the possibility of error;
  • that it does not require holiness of life, much less imply impeccability in its organs; sinful and wicked men may be God's agents in defining infallibly;
  • and finally that the validity of the Divine guarantee is independent of the fallible arguments upon which a definitive decision may be based, and of the possibly unworthy human motives that in cases of strife may appear to have influenced the result. It is the definitive result itself, and it alone, that is guaranteed to be infallible, not the preliminary stages by which it is reached.
If God bestowed the gift of prophecy on Caiphas who condemned Christ (John 11:49-52; 18:14), surely He may bestow the lesser gift of infallibility even on unworthy human agents. It is, therefore, a mere waste of time for opponents of infallibility to try to create a prejudice against the Catholic claim by pointing out the moral or intellectual shortcomings of popes or councils that have pronounced definitive doctrinal decisions, or to try to show historically that such decisions in certain cases were the seemingly natural and inevitable outcome of existing conditions, moral, intellectual, and political. All that history may be fairly claimed as witnessing to under either of these heads may freely be granted without the substance of the Catholic claim being affected.
 
Upvote 0