Why would people with wealth not have pure motives?
Does wealth corrupt or do we become corrupt due to a lack of Faith?
Romans: 14. 22. Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth. 23. And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
I do not know any core WOF teaching that tells us to seek wealth in the Word or to create wealth By a systematic method.
When we are Christians we already have power over sin We put on the new man.
Why look for new ways to be free from sin?
Ephesians: 4. 21. If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22. That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 23. And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 24. And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Christ's effort was the cross, this is the only power over sin, to look or make our own effort would no longer be grace it would be works.
Many WOF teachers have referred to the accounts of evangelist Smith Wigglesworth:
Smith
Thinking again of Smith Wigglesworth (1859-1947) and a curious internet entry entitled, "The Sad Legacy of Smith Wigglesworth".
Sad? What could be sad about a world-wide service for Jesus shining with episodes of divine healing, salvation experiences, deliverances, creative miracles and call-backs from death?
[I remember one account in the book "Smith Wigglesworth Remembered" (Harrison House Publishers) where the author W. Hacking told of his first encounter. He and friends were late for a meeting and walked in to find the message in progress. The evangelist was speaking of the Transfiguration of Jesus (Matthew 17:1-9) and illustrated with both hands fingering above his head. Back-light from an upper window was giving this gesture a glorious effect. A little bottle of Smith's anointing oil was on the platform floor and in the speaker's wanderings in the heat of the message the bottle remained unharmed. The author was mesmerized by the bottle and Smith's feet. Was every movement and sentence of the speaker according to a heavenly plan?]
But I digress. The curious internet entry above told the tale of some "full-Gospel" youths with a sick friend whom they took to a crusade featuring healing. They ushered the friend to the fore-front. He received prayer. Nothing happened. They told him of progressive healings as an alternative sometimes to instant miracles.
The friend went home and believed as he had been instructed. Over the weeks he was reminded that he had to press in harder, perhaps call a fast, recite the healing verses, "only believe" etc. His encouragers began to sound like his critics.
The outcome was a disaster. The affliction remained. The youth came to doubt the faith in general and walked away from Jesus. He had tasted, but ultimately he would not enter in.
So much for imitating what we see done by others. God will have original marks on each servant. Anointings will be different. Healings are not inevitable this side of Glory. God will be no man's errand boy just because a particular Bible verse is cited.
Praise God for the wonderful fruit of Wigglesworth. Praise God that the Christian annals are full of the mercies of healing. But praise God even louder for the better outcomes of His sovereign will.
Note: Readers will reply that the WOF posture is not accountable for this man's failure. What could be wrong about holding God to the promises of His Word? His Name is above all His Word. Even Jesus acknowledged that not all suffering or sickness of the the faithful will be delivered this side of Glory (Luke 18: 7,8).
Many WOF teachers have referred to the accounts of evangelist Smith Wigglesworth:
Thinking again of Smith Wigglesworth (1859-1947) and a curious internet entry entitled, "The Sad Legacy of Smith Wigglesworth".
Sad? What could be sad about a world-wide service for Jesus shining with episodes of divine healing, salvation experiences, deliverances, creative miracles and call-backs from death?
[I remember one account in the book "Smith Wigglesworth Remembered" (Harrison House Publishers) where the author W. Hacking told of his first encounter. He and friends were late for a meeting and walked in to find the message in progress. The evangelist was speaking of the Transfiguration of Jesus (Matthew 17:1-9) and illustrated with both hands fingering above his head. Back-light from an upper window was giving this gesture a glorious effect. A little bottle of Smith's anointing oil was on the platform floor and in the speaker's wanderings in the heat of the message the bottle remained unharmed. The author was mesmerized by the bottle and Smith's feet. Was every movement and sentence of the speaker according to a heavenly plan?]
But I digress. The curious internet entry above told the tale of some "full-Gospel" youths with a sick friend whom they took to a crusade featuring healing. They ushered the friend to the fore-front. He received prayer. Nothing happened. They told him of progressive healings as an alternative sometimes to instant miracles.
The friend went home and believed as he had been instructed. Over the weeks he was reminded that he had to press in harder, perhaps call a fast, recite the healing verses, "only believe" etc. His encouragers began to sound like his critics.
The outcome was a disaster. The affliction remained. The youth came to doubt the faith in general and walked away from Jesus. He had tasted, but ultimately he would not enter in.
So much for imitating what we see done by others. God will have original marks on each servant. Anointings will be different. Healings are not inevitable this side of Glory. God will be no man's errand boy just because a particular Bible verse is cited.
Praise God for the wonderful fruit of Wigglesworth. Praise God that the Christian annals are full of the mercies of healing. But praise God even louder for the better outcomes of His sovereign will.
Note: Readers will reply that the WOF posture is not accountable for this man's failure. What could be wrong about holding God to the promises of His Word? His Name is above all His Word. Even Jesus acknowledged that not all suffering or sickness of the the faithful will be delivered this side of Glory (Luke 18: 7,8).
Yes, so true.This is interesting as I started off in WoF and transitioned into grace. Now I’m looking at WoF and seeing that there is something good and true about it. WoF is simply living according to the Word of God, which is the Bible. However, WoF people, just like any other charismatic Christian group, tend to put equal focus on the law as grace. So, they often say that you’re right with God just as you are, but then they’ll tell you that the Bible says don’t do this or that – so just stop it or you’ll come out of fellowship with God. It got on my nerves, to be honest – so I just went with the grace message and it was a tremendous relief. I personally believe that some sort of balance between WoF and grace would be closer to the truth of God’s Word.
Life is not as simple as giving people a moral code to follow. I find that much of what we do, if not all of what we do, is driven by the subconscious mind; we are compelled to behave according to our natural instincts. Therefore, it can be very difficult, if not impossible, to simply switch your behaviour with an effort of the will. We often see behaviour modification, when someone pretends to behave a certain way. But I’d say that its not just the action or behaviour that needs to be controlled – its also the beliefs, desires, motives, attitudes, patterns of thinking and everything else that drives that action or behaviour pattern.
I find that when it comes to terms such as “legalism” and “leven of the Pharisee”: churches and believers usually have their own definition of those terms. With those I’d class as “legalistic”, often believing that term to denote very obvious, extreme legalism. I suppose believers would see me as having rather extreme views when it comes to grace.
WoF is often associated with wealth and such like. But I do believe that many on this forum are wary of this and have more pure motives. Around ten years ago, I started looking to the Bible for more spiritual, mental and emotional promises. Instead of using the Word to seek wealth, I began to look to happiness, peace, wisdom, love and power over sin. But I think I deviated a little and sought to apply this power towards material things and achievement. I like the idea of using faith for taking authority over the flesh. I believe that the Word promises power over the flesh and bad habits. This is so much more refreshing and empowering than the out-dated, legalistic approach of preaching rules based on scripture – with the threat of punishment. For me, one of the greatest texts in scripture is that of 2 Peter 1:2-4. We should be looking to scripture for power over sin - Christ's effort, not our own effort.
Yes.Smith Wigglesworth was truly and incredible man with an amazing ministry.
Some would say that Wigglesworth showed the world what a true man of faith should look like. But Im not sure now whether all believers are meant to be like Wigglesworth. We all have our own callings on our lives and our own giftings. In the ministry some are given the gift of Word of Knowledge, whilst some Discerning of Spirits were all different.
When we hear tales about people like Wigglesworth and revivals of the past, such as Azusa Street, theres the idea that this is a taste of whats to come; that we should aspire to experience such revivals everyday. I used to attend Londons Kensington Temple in the late nineties, which was WoF oriented and heavily into the revival theme.
Id like to make another point, which I included in another thread I started, which became a little heated. What if were actually not meant to experience such revivals everyday? Perhaps therell be a time when we eventually do (Acts 2:17). But for now, perhaps God wants many believers to live that so-called average life, with a 9 to 5 job, with a house in the suburbs with 2.4 children?
I remember those days back in the late nineties when I wanted to be in the ministry. I remember hearing about gifts of the spirit, such as discerning of spirits, and thinking how cool that would be to have. I was just driven by curiosity and perhaps, if Ill be honest, a want for approval. Charismatic ministry, I think, can be rather like the Christian equivalent of a child reading Marvel comics. I mean, what kid doesnt want to be a Superhero like Captain America? I think a lot of Christians are wooed by the supernatural.
Id like to confirm that I do believe theres a time and place for miracles. But Im just sharing my own personal experiences and feelings on the matter; much of which is from my past when I was rather neurotic and naïve. But I know its not just me who incorrectly processed WoF and Charismatic preaching.
As I said before: we all have different callings, which are facilitated by different experiences, strengths and weaknesses. Im beginning to see that perhaps my calling is to somehow help believers struggling with depression, anxiety and insecurities. I think my calling is geared more towards facing everyday life, rather than aspiring to be the next Smith Wigglesworth. Facing reality in everyday life can take just as much faith (or almost as much faith) as someone laying their hands on the sick. Theres sometimes the feeling that, as a believer, youve failed if you dont perform a miracle. But I think many, if not most, believers are called to live what we could call a normal life. Its taken me a long time to begin to realise that you can experience the manifest presence of God in such humble circumstances.
About how we can effect others >
"'In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.'" (Genesis 22:18)
"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)
I agree with you: why look for new ways to be free from sin, when its written in the Word? Again, Im just relating my personal experiences here and am not attempting to refute scripture. Ill admit that I have, and still continue to, struggle with sin. There seems to be an attitude that when a person gives their life to the Lord all the promises in the Bible automatically become theirs. But Kenneth Hagin says that promises in the Word must be appropriated by faith, so that they can truly be experienced in the life of the believer. I believe this also goes for freedom from sin, godliness. The church often seems to assume that when you become a believer Jesus works to change you, including setting you free from bad habits. We certainly do hear of these things happening. But I have not experienced this in my own life or the lives of other Christians I have been in contact with. So this is another area in which I would love to see anecdotes about: faith for victory over bad habits. This is a subject which is related to, but slightly different than, righteousness by faith, which is mans acceptability to God through the cross.
Yes.
I guess the key issue is what we THINK God wants from us vs what God really wants.
God has a plan for each person.
He also has a unique path to the fulfilling God's plan.
Again, we've been told it's up to us to DO it, but apart from God we can do nothing.
Hence the importance of knowing the God kind of life, God's Grace, the God kind of Faith, God's character, etc.
IOW, grow in God in grace and peace and let HIM lead you into more than that.
It's good to hear about men like Wigglesworth, but tuck it away in your heart, and let God lead you where He wants you.
Learn to hear God, and allow Him to work through you FIRST.
Everything else will be ADDED.
You won't have to work it up.
God will do it by His power and strength, His SPIRIT, His grace.
I believe Wigglesworth was a exception from the norm.
He would only read God's Word and told Summerall not to bring a newspaper in his house.
Your faith cannot be corrupted by the Word.
Our Lord knew what the reason for man's lack of faith was:
Luke: 4. 25. But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land; 26. But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow. 27. And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian.
Same old devil same old prophets of baal.
Same old lies and excuses since the beginning,always a form of doubt always another way.
My opinion is that modern day Christians are in spirit a type of Lot [the man ]in Sodom.
God told Abraham not to bring his people with him,but Abraham took Lot anyway.
It became a learning curve for Abraham,contending over wells fighting to save Lot from captivity and even bargaining with our Lord.
Lot was righteous but weak,he still longed for the fruits of city life and that is where he turned his face to.
I suppose it was a lack of faith in God,that he wanted to be near the city for provision or profit.
Lot ended up living in the most corrupt place on earth,this side of America.
Lot was vexed with their whoredoms,Lot was righteous but tolerant of his surroundings.
Just like us.
I doubt any ministry or healing or miracle could Lot carry out with the people of Sodom and Gomorrah,and I doubt that he told anyone of the God of Abraham.
We are no better than Lot.
We are corrupted by this world and its sin,yet we are righteous.
We are the mega churches that do not preach salvation,churches who deny God's Word,churches who deny the power of God by denying the gifts of God.
We are the churches who preform Sodom and Gomorrah marriages,and feel so good about doing it.
We are the churches who run our children through the fires of molech.
God's mercy shined on Lot but Lot paid dearly for his turning a blind eye to his surroundings.
If we aspire to great men like Wigglesworth,then we must throw out the trash and truly seek the kingdom of God first every moment.
2 Corinthians: 10. 5. Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; 6. And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled. - Bible Offline
Results are circumstantial. It is the faith that is important.
If I become ill and pass, I pray my confession to God's word remain until the end.
It is the faith that pleases God.
I want to please God.
Yes, so true.
The flesh wants it's own way and our spirit wants to commune with God and do things YHWH's way.
It's too bad that so much has been made of "grace VS law", because God's Torah (instructions) are ONLY doable by HIS GRACE.
IOW, it should be "GRACE to obey God's instructions".
"Believe and obey [or the obedience that comes from faith; or the obedience that is faith]." - Romans 1:5 EXB, NIV Romans 16:26 NIV
If someone doesn't understand the full application of God's GRACE, he'll go crazy trying to "DO" all God's commands.
So do we throw away God's commands?
No.
We get God's grace from God Himself, and have Him show us how to do His commands with His power and strength.
And while we're learning to do WHAT YHWH wants using YHWH's power, we rest knowing His GRACE covers our mistakes.
Because HE ALONE is the author and perfecter of our faith and life. Hebrews 12:2
"You will not succeed by your own strength or by your own power [ Not by might, nor by power], but by my Spirit, says the Lord All-Powerful [Almighty]." - Zechariah 4:6
OR another way of looking at it is FOCUS on GOD and get His help to do what HE says.
DON'T focus on His commands, and try to DO them without Him.
"Apart from me you can do nothing." - John 15:5
"God is working in you to help you want to do and be able to do [both to will/desire and to work] what pleases him." - Philippians 2:13
"I can do everything through Christ, who gives me His ability and strength." - Philippians 4:13
"To do this, I use Christs [his] great strength that works so powerfully in me." - Colossians 1:29
"You will not succeed by your own strength or by your own power [ Not by might, nor by power], but by my Spirit, says the Lord All-Powerful [Almighty]." - Zechariah 4:6
YHWH has made His grace available to us to give us the ability to do what He wants.
All His instructions lead to good results.
Disregarding any of YHWH's instructions leads to trouble.
God's grace does more than double duty, it does multiple duty.
YHWH's GRACE helps us do things His way in His power and strength.
YHWH's GRACE covers us when we fail.
YHWH's GRACE leads us into TRUTH, knowing it, believing it, doing it.
YHWH's GRACE gives us what the Lord Jesus Christ deserves, not what we deserve.
YHWH's GRACE allows us to enter His rest while we grow into the fullness of the perfection of Christ. IOW, His perfection, not our own perfection.
This is why the Lord Jesus Christ said this:
"For truly I tell you, until the sky and earth pass away and perish, not one smallest letter nor one little hook [identifying certain Hebrew letters] will pass from the Law until all things [it foreshadows] are accomplished.
19 Whoever then breaks or does away with or relaxes one of the least [important] of these commandments and teaches men so shall be called least [important] in the kingdom of heaven, but he who practices them and teaches others to do so shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." - Matthew 5:18-19
Would He tell us this IF He DIDN'T give us His GRACE?
No, that would be cruel.
Matthew 5:18-19 is doable BY God's GRACE.
14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to dothis I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
Romans 7:14-20 (NIV)
What a truly wonderful post! The scripture you quoted resonated with me and delighted my soul.
Its such a relief to read in the Bible, verses which promise divine empowerment to live a godly life. Jesus not only removed punishment for sin – He also gave us the power to live right. I don’t want to use such verses as an excuse to sin and to be lazy. But there are times when I have to admit that I simply cannot live my life the way God and His Word would have me live. Its not just me who has this struggle – the apostle Paul also went through this:
14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
Romans 7:14-20 (NIV)
I’ve had people use scripture as a weapon to make some believers appear insincere. I remember someone from a past church, years ago, saying that the Bible says we’ve all been made righteous, so if anyone sins, it’s because they want to. That is just nonsense in my book!
I believe faith is the answer - its faith which makes the promises of the Bible active in the life of the believer. Kenneth Hagin was probably the only person in years to come along and show us how to appropriate God’s Word for ourselves and to truly live by faith. I feel that brother Hagin focused mainly on faith for finances and healing: because that was his experience and calling. But he also said we could use the same principles for anything else God’s Word promises us.
I have a bit of a crazy idea: why don’t we treat ungodliness (bad habits and behaviour) like a sickness? Its almost like a mental illness in that we are unable to do the things we consciously intend to do. Its also like an emotional illness: as we can get ungodly desires that we do not, and should not, have. So why don’t believers actively use faith in God’s Word for godliness?
An inability to appropriate God’s Word for what we truly need, leads to a mental ascension and presumption towards God’s Word, followed by a pretence that we can have, be or do a promise of God’s Word. That is not faith that unlocks the power of God - it is willpower, self-effort, the flesh.
A believer wouldn’t go around pretending they're well when they’re sick, would they? So why do we do the same when it comes to something like godliness or having the peace and joy of the Lord? I think some believers do pretend they’re well when they’re sick: they fail to employ faith properly and think their pretence constitutes faith, when it doesn’t. Word of Faith and Charismatic Christians are marked by being serious about a genuine, powerful experience with God – faith in all areas is the answer!
Remember, God’s Word never changes. However, I believe that our interpretation, focus and application of God’s Word does change and is evolving over the years.