Are we confusing kindness & love therefore watering down the Truth?

Michie · Jan 22, 2015

From an article I read:

Do not allow others to shame you by calling you unmerciful or unloving. Tell them, I love you too much to lie to you. And do not allow others to simplify Jesus, either, by reducing Him to merely being kind. There is a place for kindness, but love must sometimes overrule it. And Jesus is love. He, who is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, surely loves us too much to lie to us.

If you want to read it in full:
Many Have Reduced Love to Kindness, and Kindness to Mere Affirmation – A Further Reflection on the Moral Troubles of our Time « Archdiocese of Washington

I think no matter the intention to tell the truth with no intention of offense, some are just not wanting to hear anything but constant affirmation. To do otherwise is automatically taken as an attack.

People often reduce Jesus as a really cool dude that hung out with all stripes of sinners with no other intent but to not judge, show love, etc.

But I think He was opening their hearts to the truth. Not all that heard it received it well. IMO, it seems we often out of fear of offending cannot be truthful with one another. It waters down the message imo. And isn't real love something that includes the whole person which would include their eternal soul?

hedrick · Jan 22, 2015

Michie said:
People often reduce Jesus as a really cool dude that hung out with all stripes of sinners with no other intent but to not judge, show love, etc.

Yes and no. I do know people whose theology seems to match that song from Porgy and Bess, "Taint Necessarily So." While there's room for a certain skepticism of human knowledge, still, I agree that there are things that matter. So perhaps there are people who are confusing kindness and love.

But I also find a continuing stream of accusations that my tradition has done this, when in fact we do not believe that certain things are sin. Some people seem to find it impossible to believe that Christians could actually believe that, and instead claim that we're giving in to the world, or confusing kindness with love. Not so. At a certain point this turns into a kind of ad hominem attack that I hope this forum will not perpetuate.

Don't believe it's ad hominem? "You can't possibly really believe X isn't sin. You just don't care about sin." Classic ad hominem. I care passionately about sin. The US economy was almost sunk by sin. Families are torn apart by it. The world is fighting wars because of it. Fellow Christian are being killed because of it. I pray and take what actions I can.

However the rules of CF probably don't permit this discussion to get very specific.

Michie · Jan 22, 2015

hedrick said:
Yes and no. I do know people whose theology seems to match that song from Porgy and Bess, "Taint Necessarily So." While there's room for a certain skepticism of human knowledge, still, I agree that there are things that matter. So perhaps there are people who are confusing kindness and love.

But I also find a continuing stream of accusations that my tradition has done this, when in fact we do not believe that certain things are sin. Some people seem to find it impossible to believe that Christians could actually believe that, and instead claim that we're giving in to the world, or confusing kindness with love. Not so. At a certain point this turns into a kind of ad hominem attack that I hope this forum will not perpetuate.

Don't believe it's ad hominem? "You can't possibly really believe X isn't sin. You just don't care about sin." Classic ad hominem. I care passionately about sin. The US economy was almost sunk by sin. Families are torn apart by it. The world is fighting wars because of it. Fellow Christian are being killed because of it. I pray and take what actions I can.

However the rules of CF probably don't permit this discussion to get very specific.

I was really hoping we could discuss this without tainting it before the discussion even started. I'm really confused by the defensiveness of your post given the goals of this forum. Maybe I'm getting the wrong impression.

I'm not here to discuss how everyone misunderstands your tradition. Only what I posted.

FireDragon76 · Jan 22, 2015

Michie said:
People often reduce Jesus as a really cool dude that hung out with all stripes of sinners with no other intent but to not judge, show love, etc.

That's because that's exactly what Jesus did.

But I think He was opening their hearts to the truth. Not all that heard it received it well.

The ones that did not receive it well were the ones that thought they had the market cornered on truth and holy living.

IMO, it seems we often out of fear of offending cannot be truthful with one another. It waters down the message imo. And isn't real love something that includes the whole person which would include their eternal soul?

Who really knows what's good for another individuals soul... really? It reminds me of another saying of Jesus, "Here friend, let me help you take that speck out of your eye..." You can do it as gently as possible, but its still condescending hypocrisy.

hedrick · Jan 22, 2015

Michie said:
I was really hoping we could discuss this without tainting it before the discussion even started. I'm really confused by the defensiveness of your post given the goals of this forum. Maybe I'm getting the wrong impression.

I'm not here to discuss how everyone misunderstands your tradition. Only what I posted.

OK, let's take the article alone, without looking at the previous article that it refers to. It still has the problem. Unlike the previous one, which dealt with divorce and (briefly) homosexuality, this one seems to focus on issues of public policy.

As far as I can tell, he's criticizing people for supporting other people rather than dealing with underlying causes. It's a reasonable criticism. That kind of thing does happen. His specifics depend upon his political views, which I may or may not accept. But it's obviously better to deal with the problem. So he may be right, if his public policy judgements are right. That's impossible to judge without looking at each situation in detail. I suspect I'd agree with some of his judgements and disagree with others.

But I think the way he's written it is still basically ad hominem.

Treating symtoms rather than causes isn't because one confuses kindness with love. Either approach, symptoms and cause, comes because we care about other people. Someone who misallocates their funds, or treats the wrong thing doesn't care less or differently. Maybe they disagree with his political judgements about the best way to treat things. Or maybe they don't see any way to fix the system, and want to help people survive. They may even be making mistakes. But I don't think it's because they are kind rather than loving. At worst, they've made bad judgements in the area of public policy. To show that they don't actually love the people they're trying to help would take more evidence than was presented. (Indeed I didn't see any.)

If he's right that mistakes are being made, he's going to have to make good cases in each situation that there's a better approach. Criticizing people for being kind rather than loving is probably not going to convince anyone.

Note that he gave few enough examples that I have no idea whether I'd agree with him on specific policies. I might well agree on some of them. My concern is entirely with the way he is attributing motivations.

I don't think it's defensiveness to claim that this article is an ad hominem attack.

The defensiveness, if there is any, is because this sort of attack is pretty common in areas of gender and sexual policy, and those areas are in fact the subject of the article to which this one refers.

Michie · Jan 23, 2015

FireDragon76 said:
That's because that's exactly what Jesus did.

He had a mission. He did more than that.

The ones that did not receive it well were the ones that thought they had the market cornered on truth and holy living.

They way I understood it. They were going through the motions. Laying heavy burdens on others they were unwilling to carry themselves. Whitewashed tombs.

Who really knows what's good for another individuals soul... really? It reminds me of another saying of Jesus, "Here friend, let me help you take that speck out of your eye..." You can do it as gently as possible, but its still condescending hypocrisy.

I think you misunderstand. This is not about judgment but not condoning something that should not be condoned out of 'love'.

Michie · Jan 23, 2015

hedrick said:
OK, let's take the article alone, without looking at the previous article that it refers to. It still has the problem. Unlike the previous one, which dealt with divorce and (briefly) homosexuality, this one seems to focus on issues of public policy.

As far as I can tell, he's criticizing people for supporting other people rather than dealing with underlying causes. It's a reasonable criticism. That kind of thing does happen. His specifics depend upon his political views, which I may or may not accept. But it's obviously better to deal with the problem. So he may be right, if his public policy judgements are right. That's impossible to judge without looking at each situation in detail. I suspect I'd agree with some of his judgements and disagree with others.

But I think the way he's written it is still basically ad hominem.

Treating symtoms rather than causes isn't because one confuses kindness with love. Either approach, symptoms and cause, comes because we care about other people. Someone who misallocates their funds, or treats the wrong thing doesn't care less or differently. Maybe they disagree with his political judgements about the best way to treat things. Or maybe they don't see any way to fix the system, and want to help people survive. They may even be making mistakes. But I don't think it's because they are kind rather than loving. At worst, they've made bad judgements in the area of public policy. To show that they don't actually love the people they're trying to help would take more evidence than was presented. (Indeed I didn't see any.)

If he's right that mistakes are being made, he's going to have to make good cases in each situation that there's a better approach. Criticizing people for being kind rather than loving is probably not going to convince anyone.

Note that he gave few enough examples that I have no idea whether I'd agree with him on specific policies. I might well agree on some of them. My concern is entirely with the way he is attributing motivations.

I don't think it's defensiveness to claim that this article is an ad hominem attack.

The defensiveness, if there is any, is because this sort of attack is pretty common in areas of gender and sexual policy, and those areas are in fact the subject of the article to which this one refers.

I quoted one paragraph from the article because that was what I wanted to discuss. I realize the article was written by a Catholic priest & I know not everyone here is Catholic. I mentioned the rest could be read if desired. But I wanted to discuss the paragraph I quoted & hear various thoughts on that. I put the link because it is required & but I was asking about the quoted paragraph. I come from quite the varied spiritual background & I am very aware of the differences of opinion people have about their & other's Church practice & belief. But I was wanting thoughts on the paragraph I posted from different areas of thought in the Body of Christ. I'm sorry I was not clearer in my intent.

Michie · Jan 23, 2015

I tried to clarify by an edit in the OP but it just comes up to a blank page. :sorry:

hedrick · Jan 23, 2015

Michie said:
I quoted one paragraph from the article because that was what I wanted to discuss. I realize the article was written by a Catholic priest & I know not everyone here is Catholic. I mentioned the rest could be read if desired. But I wanted to discuss the paragraph I quoted & hear various thoughts on that. I put the link because it is required & but I was asking about the quoted paragraph. I come from quite the varied spiritual background & I am very aware of the differences of opinion people have about their & other's Church practice & belief. But I was wanting thoughts on the paragraph I posted from different areas of thought in the Body of Christ. I'm sorry I was not clearer in my intent.

Taken out of any context, I agree with the statement quoted in the OP. After all, Jesus could get downright confrontational at times. His idea of love included justice, and dealing with those who abuse others, as well as dealing with people's underlying motivations.

But where are we going with this? My impression is that the Christian world is not lacking in willingness to deal with injustice and error. Rather, we have different ideas of what it is. Different traditions and subtraditions tend to focus on different kinds of sin and error, sometimes as a matter of emphasis, and sometimes based on disagreements as to what actually is sinful and what is true. This presents a particular challenge for relationships among Christians of varying traditions. How do we regard those who think our judgements are wrong, and may even extend that to suspicion of our motivations?

I would suggest that we start by assuming that other Christians are trying to follow Jesus. Perhaps they are wrong. We may try to persuade them. But we should not attack their motivations or suggest that their dedication to Christ is less than ours, or that they don't care about truth and justice.

MKJ · Jan 23, 2015

In my experience, there is a sub-set of people who think it is more important to be kind than anything else. However, I am not inclined to think that in most cases they are not being loving - it is more often that they think that the kinds of principles involved in a lot of these discussions are less sure, or less important, than being kind is. So really, if you dig, it almost always comes down to a difference in views about what is true.

On the other hand, I feel sometimes that people who take the other view really strongly are often mistaken or naive about how people think and feel. For example, look at all the people who have been so upset about some of the things Pope Francis has said about welcoming homosexuals, not being judgmental and so on. They think he is talking about softening principles. Well, I don't think so at all, what he is saying is that you can't lay Christian requirements on people who don't know Christ, and you get to know Christ in many cases through the Church and its people. How the proper authorities (and that is important) treat someone who is a practicing Christian who is doing something sinful - a sin about a topic that in at least a general way they understand - is an entirely different question than how you deal with someone who is not a Christian or a knowledgeable one.

I feel generally that the too kind - not truthful accusation is just a little too simple to describe the situation.

PreachersWife2004 · Jan 24, 2015

I liken dealing with sinners to dealing with children. (not because of maturity level, mind you)

I love my children very much. But when they do wrong, they need to understand that they're doing wrong. Sometimes that involves discipline/punishment. They don't like to be corrected.

Sinners are much the same way, and unfortunately, a good number of people have decided that correcting sin isn't as nice as just saying "you're okay just the way you are". The bible seems to be on the side of those who would call out a sin. Matthew 18, for example. Or the passage that talks about the bible being useful for teaching, but also correcting and rebuking.

Jesus was incredibly loving and we should model ourselves after him, but even after he dispersed loving words, he still said "go and sin no more". If a person doesn't understand that what they are doing is sinning, how will they know they need to stop it?

Michie · Jan 26, 2015

PreachersWife2004 said:
I liken dealing with sinners to dealing with children. (not because of maturity level, mind you)

I love my children very much. But when they do wrong, they need to understand that they're doing wrong. Sometimes that involves discipline/punishment. They don't like to be corrected.

Sinners are much the same way, and unfortunately, a good number of people have decided that correcting sin isn't as nice as just saying "you're okay just the way you are". The bible seems to be on the side of those who would call out a sin. Matthew 18, for example. Or the passage that talks about the bible being useful for teaching, but also correcting and rebuking.

Jesus was incredibly loving and we should model ourselves after him, but even after he dispersed loving words, he still said "go and sin no more". If a person doesn't understand that what they are doing is sinning, how will they know they need to stop it?

Amen.

Tigger45 · Jan 26, 2015

This scenario played out this Sunday at my church. By the grace of God my sister who is basically a universalist and the topic of the sermon was on Matt. 5. Well the pastor did such a good job of lining out law and gospel that my sister was very impressed. The majority of my sister's Christian experience have come from a fundamentalist perspective which throughly turns her off.

GenetoJean · Jan 26, 2015

PreachersWife2004 said:
I liken dealing with sinners to dealing with children. (not because of maturity level, mind you)

I love my children very much. But when they do wrong, they need to understand that they're doing wrong. Sometimes that involves discipline/punishment. They don't like to be corrected.

Sinners are much the same way, and unfortunately, a good number of people have decided that correcting sin isn't as nice as just saying "you're okay just the way you are". The bible seems to be on the side of those who would call out a sin. Matthew 18, for example. Or the passage that talks about the bible being useful for teaching, but also correcting and rebuking.

Jesus was incredibly loving and we should model ourselves after him, but even after he dispersed loving words, he still said "go and sin no more". If a person doesn't understand that what they are doing is sinning, how will they know they need to stop it?

My experience with Christians showing me this type of love is that they tell me what I am doing is a sin and tell me to "go and sin no more" and then walk away feeling that they have done their job. When a person, especially at a young age (which I am not, I admit), doesnt know what else to do, the above approach doesnt help. This thread is not about any specific sin but for demonstration purposes I am going to use the sinful action that I am accused of the most and that is me being transgender. I know people dont believe me but I searched for well over 35 years for help, for a "cure", an understanding of how to stop these thoughts and self-loathing. This help, from my experience, does no exist. So, I had to analyze my beliefs, pray a lot, accept the help offered, and I firmly believe it is from God. If you are going to tell someone something is wrong be prepared to help them get help.

Tigger45 · Jan 26, 2015

GenetoJean said:
My experience with Christians showing me this type of love is that they tell me what I am doing is a sin and tell me to "go and sin no more" and then walk away feeling that they have done their job. When a person, especially at a young age (which I am not, I admit), doesnt know what else to do, the above approach doesnt help. This thread is not about any specific sin but for demonstration purposes I am going to use the sinful action that I am accused of the most and that is me being transgender. I know people dont believe me but I searched for well over 35 years for help, for a "cure", an understanding of how to stop these thoughts and self-loathing. This help, from my experience, does no exist. So, I had to analyze my beliefs, pray a lot, accept the help offered, and I firmly believe it is from God. If you are going to tell someone something is wrong be prepared to help them get help.

Michie · Jan 26, 2015

GenetoJean said:
My experience with Christians showing me this type of love is that they tell me what I am doing is a sin and tell me to "go and sin no more" and then walk away feeling that they have done their job. When a person, especially at a young age (which I am not, I admit), doesnt know what else to do, the above approach doesnt help. This thread is not about any specific sin but for demonstration purposes I am going to use the sinful action that I am accused of the most and that is me being transgender. I know people dont believe me but I searched for well over 35 years for help, for a "cure", an understanding of how to stop these thoughts and self-loathing. This help, from my experience, does no exist. So, I had to analyze my beliefs, pray a lot, accept the help offered, and I firmly believe it is from God. If you are going to tell someone something is wrong be prepared to help them get help.

Very true. But I took it for granted that is what Preacher's Wife meant. She was discussing Jesus & He never seemed to just point a finger & leave without some type of help.

GenetoJean · Jan 27, 2015

Michie said:
Very true. But I took it for granted that is what Preacher's Wife meant. She was discussing Jesus & He never seemed to just point a finger & leave without some type of help.

That is probably very true for Preacher's Wife. I have yet to experience it in person so I was just wanting to mention it. I regret and appologize that I might have implied I was accusing Preacher's Wife.

Michie · Jan 27, 2015

GenetoJean said:
That is probably very true for Preacher's Wife. I have yet to experience it in person so I was just wanting to mention it. I regret and appologize that I might have implied I was accusing Preacher's Wife.

I didn't take it that way at all. I was just clarifying how I took her post.

PreachersWife2004 · Jan 27, 2015

My husband has dealt with that very sin, GenetoJean. I mean, not him personally, but with a member.

And we certainly did not turn our back on that member. Ultimately, he turned his back on the Lord, but it was not for lack of caring and compassion on our part. What I pointed out in my earlier post was that with all the love that Jesus poured out, there WAS still law.

This thread is only dealing with a portion of how we as Christians are supposed to be. With law, there must ALWAYS be gospel. If all one preaches is the law, then he is condemned by that law.

GenetoJean · Jan 27, 2015

PreachersWife2004 said:
My husband has dealt with that very sin, GenetoJean. I mean, not him personally, but with a member.

And we certainly did not turn our back on that member. Ultimately, he turned his back on the Lord, but it was not for lack of caring and compassion on our part. What I pointed out in my earlier post was that with all the love that Jesus poured out, there WAS still law.

This thread is only dealing with a portion of how we as Christians are supposed to be. With law, there must ALWAYS be gospel. If all one preaches is the law, then he is condemned by that law.

Thank you and your husband for showing love. I pray that the person you were helping is living the life God knows is best for them, whatever that life is.

Are we confusing kindness & love therefore watering down the Truth?

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