Mason and the Bavarian Illuminati, do they exist ?

Skip Sampson · Nov 8, 2014

Now that you are speaking for Freemasonry, I'll offer a few comments:

Albion said:
Masonry these days is a very democratic or egalitarian society.

That is not quite true. In the first place, the organization is very autocratic. One only need understand the powers given to the Worshipful Master to understand that. True, he is elected by the membership, but once in office, he's owns it.

One might also point to Simpleman25's lodge, in which non-Christians are prohibited from joining, to see rebuttal to your position. As no Mason has publicly called him out on it, we can assume their concurrence with the position.

I think you meant to say that all Master Masons are equal in stature. But even if you did, that would not be quite true. There are firm pecking orders among Masons, most usually based on their Masonic offices and memberships. Just read any Masonic fora and you'll see that in action.

Albion said:
You would be amazed--because I was--to find out the enormous charity work that lodges and individual members take on, at great personal sacrifice, with very little publicity.

You might have pointed out that a large part of such charity work is focused on Masons or their family members. Scholarships, in many GLs, are given solely to relatives of Masons. The Shrine hospitals are certainly open to everyone, but much of its income, probably the majority, comes from non-Masonic sources. Just witness the recent advertisements asking for support from the general community.

Albion said:
My church doesn't oppose it and most churches don't.

Just out of curiosity, is your pastor a Mason? If not, has he actually seen a Masonic oath? It would be instructive for him to read one and see if he has no objection to it while one recites it in front of the altar, on his knees, Bible (usually) in hand and to which he asks for God's help in keep its parts. My guess is that most pastors would step back from endorsing such a thing.

The Masonic temple, contrary to your suspicion, is not a place where worship services are conducted.

Some of your rituals make that view debatable. Your lodges are erected to God,dedicated to the saints John and are often referred to as sacred places. Your meetings are often opened and/or closed in the name of God. Your candidates often enter the lodge in the name of God, they take their oaths in God's presence and in his name, and your intro EA prayer asks that they form a partnership with God. H.W. Coil described Freemasonry as a primitive religion and pointed out that many Masons, in his time, saw Freemasonry as the only religion they needed. As I say, your point is debatable.

And no member is asked to alter his own Christian beliefs on the matter of salvation or anything else.

You have no non-Christian members? If you do, are they ever asked to alter their non-Christian beliefs on salvation? Cordially, Skip.

Albion · Nov 9, 2014

Skip Sampson said:
Now that you are speaking for Freemasonry, I'll offer a few comments:

You ask me questions and then, if I reply, you talk as though I think I'm some official spokesman. :doh:

And, of course, if the question is so pointless that I don't answer, you get to pretend that I'm ducking it or can't answer. It's the game that's most interesting to you, isn't it, much more than learning about Masonry?

That is not quite true. In the first place, the organization is very autocratic.

I disagree, but I was speaking of the composition of the membership, not your imagined councils of men in Tibet or wherever who are supposed to be running the world.

Skip Sampson · Nov 9, 2014

Albion said:
And, of course, if the question is so pointless that I don't answer, you get to pretend that I'm ducking it or can't answer.

Why do you consider the questions in my previous post to be pointless? Cordially, Skip.

Ellwood3 · Dec 26, 2014

speakout said:
They obviously do , given that their symbols are flying in charismatic churches lately.

How are we going stop this infiltration of Christianity or should we all start preparing for the Antichrist and the false prophet.

[FONT=&quot]As far as how we are going to stop this infiltration into churches, we cant. Only the actions of the Holy Spirit can. He can convict. He can change hearts, and reveal truth. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]In my opinion that is one reason why it is not enough to write statements and give official policy. What is needed is the work of the Holy Spirit. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Jim Cymbala said, [/FONT]Weve found, if you can beat the devil on the prayer meeting night, youll beat him on every other level.

[FONT=&quot]After struggling during the night, Cymbala had made last minute changes in his topic and went out and preached a message about prayer to a group who were expecting something else. He refers to this sermon in at least two of his books.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]That sermon is called My House Shall Be Called a House of Prayer and it is here:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U79YOKje2zU

On a daily basis, not many Christians ask, much less implore, God to have His will regarding Freemasonry and other secret organizations in the world and in the Church. I think it is likely most Christians never have heard or asked a single prayer on this subject.

We dont need to worry about the Illuminati or any other group. We do need to pray.

Albion · Dec 26, 2014

They obviously do , given that their symbols are flying in charismatic churches lately.

Unless I missed it along the way, this question has gone unanswered--

Does anyone know what the above is talking about? WHAT questionable symbols are supposedly "flying in charismatic churches? "

Ellwood3 · Dec 30, 2014

Albion said:
Unless I missed it along the way, this question has gone unanswered--

Does anyone know what the above is talking about? WHAT questionable symbols are supposedly "flying in charismatic churches? "

Here are some examples of what one site claims are such symbols (pyramids, obelisks, etc, which can be and which can be misapplied):

Religions: The Occult Connection Part II

Note that I do NOT believe Christian author Max Lucado is part of the Illuminati on the "evidence" that --------- --------??????????????

on the "evidence" that someone jumping into the water on the cover of his "Fearless" book is making a pyramid.

I think it helps to keep a sense of humor about these things, if possible, on both sides. Here is Max:

Lucado's site:
https://maxlucado.com/

Lucado's blog:
https://maxlucado.com/category/read/daily/

Max is actually a very humble guy, especially for a man who has sold over 100 million books, both for children and adults. He is about as solid as they come:

Max Lucado - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
There's a very long list of his books there. Not one of them promote anything demonic.

Hermie the Caterpillar is one of Lucado's cartoons. Here's the channel:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLRk7c6CSOR_aZZyofBLrLNISGdj7fhmE3

So, maybe there are some better examples out there, ones that don't indict people as Illuminati or being part of a secret underground for in some way showing basic depiction of something like a pyramid.

My understanding is that Charismatic churches have been increasing their membership in Masonic organizations, and some may be exposing an agenda. There is plenty to look at in the question originally posted.

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]NOTE: Ben Breedloves memorial service was December 29, 2011. Through live Internet feed, it was seen by around 58,000 people. Ben had a YouTube following on his BreedloveTV channel (https://www.youtube.com/user/BreedloveTV). Just before he died, Ben made two videos that then went viral about his heart condition and what he had experienced in his times he was close to death. The book written by his sister Ally Breedlove is When Will the Heaven Begin (after a Kid Cudi song lyric). In honor of Ben today I include his links:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]This is my story (Part 1): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmlTHfVaU9o [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]This is my story (Part 2): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4LSEXsvRAI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4LSEXsvRAI [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Ally Breedloves talk at Bens service: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEhAtP2Fnb8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEhAtP2Fnb8 [/FONT]

Albion · Dec 30, 2014

Ellwood3 said:
Here are some examples of what one site claims are such symbols (pyramids, obelisks, etc, which can be and which can be misapplied):

Religions: The Occult Connection Part II

Goodness. I don't believe that pyramids and obelisks ARE, in fact, typically found in charismatic churches. Do you? And as I scan that website I see Charles Taze Russell called a Mason, when he was not one, and the cross and crown--an old Christian emblem--called an "occult" sign. There's nothing factual about any of this that I can see.

So, maybe there are some better examples out there, ones that don't indict people as Illuminati or being part of a secret underground for in some way showing basic depiction of something like a pyramid.

My understanding is that Charismatic churches have been increasing their membership in Masonic organizations, and some may be exposing an agenda. There is plenty to look at in the question originally posted.

I wouldn't put much stock in that claim.

Ellwood3 · Jan 2, 2015

Albion said:
Goodness. I don't believe that pyramids and obelisks ARE, in fact, typically found in charismatic churches. Do you?

[FONT=&quot]A church can use a triangle to show the Triune God, and someone can say, Thats a pyramid! Clearly that group is part of the New World Order![/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Focus like that does not illuminate anything. It creates paranoia.[/FONT]

https://www.bible.com/bible/1/2ti.1.kjv
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2 Timothy 1:6-7[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6 For this reason I remind you to fan into flame the gift of God, which is in you through the laying on of my hands. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]7 for God gave us a spirit not of fear but of power and love and self-control.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Original Newsboys Peter Furler from Houston We Are Go, singing Matt Redmond's Blessed Be Your Name + Isaiah passages at end:
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLycgKxlgc0&index=2&list=PL09876FB4E74E1C3A[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Do not fear.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

Ellwood3 · Jan 2, 2015

There has always been a plan to create a New World Order. It is older than the garden of Eden. It has always been the devils plan, along with his demons. Whoever they work through, those humans are their puppets. They have given up their real power.

The devil and his many other fallen angels are not gods. The devil is the spiritual equivalent of Michael the angel, not of God the Father, Christ and the Holy Spirit.

What is vital to know is that there are no true gods except for God. Other gods do not come into existence simply because somebody makes them up. They are just ways for the devil and his demons to lead people astray and to gain their worship.

The Bible says worship given to gods is actually given to demons.

Deuteronomy 32:16 Context: They moved him to jealousy with strange [gods]. They provoked him to anger with abominations.

Deuteronomy 32:16-18

16 they stirred him to jealousy with strange gods; with abominations they provoked him to anger.
17 They sacrificed to demons that were no gods, to gods they had never known, to new gods that had come recently, whom your fathers had never dreaded.
18 You were unmindful of the Rock that bore you, and you forgot the God who gave you birth.

Psalm 106:36 Context: They served their idols, which became a snare to them.

Psalms 106:36-38 :

36 They served their idols, which became a snare to them. 37 They sacrificed their sons and their daughters to the demons;
38 they poured our innocent blood, the blood of their sons and daughters, whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan, and the land was polluted with blood.

1 Corinthians 10:19 Context: What am I saying then? That a thing sacrificed to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything?

1 Corinthians 10:19-21

19 What am I saying then? That an idol is anything, or what is offered to idols is anything?
20 Rather, the things which the Gentiles sacrifice they sacrifice to demons and not to God and I do not want you to have fellowship with demons.
21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the Lord's table and of the table of demons.

God has always known the devils plans and those he works with and through. Not one thing is hidden before God.

We have not one thing to fear from the Illuminati or any other secret society.

God is with us.

Ellwood3 · Jan 2, 2015

The devil has always worked through more than one group. We have no reason to fear that, either.

Matthew 10:26-33:

27 What I tell you in the dark, say in the light, and what you hear whispered, proclaim on the housetops.
28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
29 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? And not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father.
30 But even the hairs of your head are all numbered.
31 Fear not, therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows.
32 So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven,
33 but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.
Matt 10:26-33 (ESV)

Matthew 10:26 Context: Therefore don't be afraid of them, for there is nothing covered that will not be revealed; and hidden that will not be known.

Fear meeting the One who bled and died on a cross for you, and not having Him say, Well done, good and faithful servant.

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

Albion · Jan 2, 2015

Ellwood3 said:
[FONT=&quot]A church can use a triangle to show the Triune God, and someone can say, “That’s a pyramid! Clearly that group is part of the New World Order!”

Focus like that does not illuminate anything. It creates paranoia.[/FONT]

So you are retreating now. I have pointed out that a symbol that's used in Masonry has a meaning assigned to it by Masonry, not what someone else uses that symbol for. But the answer is always "you are related. They borrowed it from you (without permission) to use for themselves and for a different purpose--so the two organizations are "related!" :doh:

Or else, it's "Here's the meaning (according to the speaker), so anyone who uses it, is using it as meaning that and nothing BUT that!"

So now you come to make excuses for different organizations using the same symbol...and guess what? Suddenly, we're supposed to believe that there is NO connection and the meanings are NOT the same.

:yellowcard:

When someone doesn't have the facts, but insists upon making uninformed claims just the same, he usually winds up contradicting himself.

Ellwood3 · Jan 21, 2015

I am not retreating. If you re-read the Post (#108, also #107 and #106) it may help. My post referred to a site that appears to view any pyramid, for example, as automatically being evil.

I have, as another example, even read a claim that the Divine Mercy Image (Catholic) is a pyramid so is also wicked. Which is not true.

Divine Mercy image - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The point of confusion appears to be about whether symbols can have more than one meaning. I said they can, and am uninterested in arguing about it.

My Post #106 was my response to your question, which you had asked more than once and no one had responded to yet. I have not contradicted myself, so there is nothing to retreat from.

Albion · Jan 21, 2015

Ellwood3 said:
I am not retreating. If you re-read the Post (#108, also #107 and #106) it may help. My post referred to a site that appears to view any pyramid, for example, as automatically being evil.

Which is kinda silly, can't we all agree?

I have, as another example, even read a claim that the Divine Mercy Image (Catholic) is a pyramid so is also wicked. Which is not true.

OK. We agree.

Neogaia777 · Jan 21, 2015

I heard (read) that the Illuminati came from freemasonry, and now a secret society, has made plans for the world, much of their beliefs can be looked up online pretty easily...

God Bless!

Simpleman25 · Jan 21, 2015

Neogaia777 said:
I heard (read) that the Illuminati came from freemasonry, and now a secret society, has made plans for the world, much of their beliefs can be looked up online pretty easily...

God Bless!

Theres ZERO proof that anything you've written is true.

Unless of course you believe everything that's written on the internet.

Even Thomas Jefferson is quoted saying, "Don't believe everything that you read on the internet".

He was president, so he would know. <enter sarcasm font>

Albion · Jan 21, 2015

Neogaia777 said:
I heard (read) that the Illuminati came from freemasonry, and now a secret society, has made plans for the world, much of their beliefs can be looked up online pretty easily...

God Bless!

There was a group in the 1700s. It was not a branch of Masonry. The idea that it still survives is ridiculous, but the fact that the name can be found in history is enough to sell various conspiracy theories about it.

By the way, we've had two different people here on CF claim that they know that the Illuminati exists...because some group of drinking buddies or a club with an eye towards poking fun at conspiracy theories called itself by that name. One of these fellows swore that the Illuminati advertises that it holds its meetings in a coffee shop in Seattle (the obvious setting for the headquarters of a secret society that rules the world, I guess that's supposed to be). :doh:

Neogaia777 · Jan 21, 2015

Albion said:
There was a group in the 1700s. It was not a branch of Masonry. The idea that it still survives is ridiculous, but the fact that the name can be found in history is enough to sell various conspiracy theories about it.

By the way, we've had two different people here on CF claim that they know that the Illuminati exists...because some group of drinking buddies or a club with an eye towards poking fun at conspiracy theories called itself by that name. One of these fellows swore that the Illuminati advertises that it holds its meetings in a coffee shop in Seattle (the obvious setting for the headquarters of a secret society that rules the world, I guess that's supposed to be).

I've heard some of their (Illuminati's) philosophies on politics religion, for example, and most sound pretty logical and reasonable to conclude, which makes them so dangerous...

Some are cold, they've predicted that nations will rise and fall, and if they determine that we are going to face a fall, they will "orchestrate" it, to keep their money and possessions, they will ensure their survival and then, when orchestrating the fall, they ensure their survival and may even be capable of causing a disaster and trying to control it to their benefit, I believe this is happening now or will happen soon...

God Bless!

Blue Wren · Jan 21, 2015

circuitrider · Jan 21, 2015

I've also heard that Elvis is still alive. LOL

Nope, as Albion said, no such current organization exists nor have I a seen any real evidence that it does.

Albion · Jan 22, 2015

Neogaia777 said:
I've heard some of their (Illuminati's) philosophies on politics religion, for example, and most sound pretty logical and reasonable to conclude, which makes them so dangerous...

Why don't you just go ahead and post that material from the Illuminati so we can all see what it says?

It's easy to comment on someone else's theories about some organization that they've only heard exists, but if you mean to say that you've actually seen or heard from them directly, that would be worth our attention.

And I'm especially interested in conspiratorial, "secret" societies that carefully lay out all their goals and values for anyone to see.

Mason and the Bavarian Illuminati, do they exist ?

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