Concerned about the number of former Christians on CF... what can we do?

I think that just by openly being a Christian you end up with lots of experience defending what you believe, haha! People today are very cynical.

I personally find it very difficult to express why I believe what I do. Especially as quite often the people asking aren't really asking to hear what you think, they're just asking to argue, so they don't really hear what you have to say.

I think this is a much needed post.

I recently was thinking about the "Exploring Christianity" sub forum, & how poor or even hostile some of the Christian responses are.

I also not long ago I think started a thread in GT about the education crisis in Christianity. You're right in that most churches aren't really equipping lay people to think about their faith or be educated about it more. It's not good.

I think many mainline bodies have the tools at the leadership level, but I think the instruction for members is lacking. With fundamentalist or conservative bodies, there seems to be more of that aversion to scholarship or thinking through the faith, whether due to spiritual manipulation or fear or American evangelical mentality.

There needs to be a change, but I'm not sure where to start. I've been trying to work on myself when I can, but I tend to shy away from articulating much about TEC or my faith in general because of the attacks I've experienced from conservatives. I want to share my faith more, & I just need to get there.

FireDragon76 said:

There seems to be a growing number of former Christians on CF, and indeed, around the internet. And I see a recurring pattern going on here. People looking for answers to questions, they get simplistic answers from well-meaning people that are unsatisfying, the non-believers or doubters question them,

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We need to read the Bible and learn how to love, like Paul says >

"with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love," (Ephesians 4:2)

If we are going to relate with other Christians, we need to be ready with love's "longsuffering", for the ones who will be wrong Or else, we are not strong enough for real loving and we might instead blame wrong people, which certainly won't work!!

And Jesus talks about forgiving >

"'And whenever you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive him, that your Father in heaven may also forgive you your trespasses.'" (Mark 11:25)

So, we are not wise to excuse ourselves because of wrong people. We need to in prayer forgive them, "so we are with God, ourselves; and God will do what is right, with us "

Looking to wrong people to do what is right is silly, then, I would consider.

"Look to God and all He has for us, through Jesus."

And as we get real in Christian loving, ourselves, we become able to discover who the real ones are And feed on the examples of the real ones, but these are in the midst of this corrupt and wrong world with its fake religious stuff. You can't clean up the wrong stuff, in order to get with the real Christians; you need to get real with God, yourself, and strong in loving forgiveness, then we can connect with the real ones who are "in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation", Paul says in Philippians 2:14.

The real ones, then, are in the "middle" of all the wrong stuff, not fleeing and trying to make some isolated safe place for themselves; so you need to be able to go into the midst of the battle if you want to meet and share with the true soldiers!!

And we become real enough to do this, by stopping our arguing and complaining and unforgiveness >

"Do all things without complaining and disputing, that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation" > in Philippians 2:14-16.

"bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do." (Colossians 3:13)

So, I offer > you can't change the wrong people. You need to change, yourself, by submitting to how God is correcting us (Hebrews 12:6-11); and our Father will correct us with much better and stronger standards than what wrong people are accusing and criticizing you about!!

Because He has so much more and better for us, but we need to become how His love changes us by His grace so we can perceive and enjoy and live in all He has for us. So, trusting in Jesus and our Father's correction is what we need, never mind ones who are wrong "as our excuse to point our fingers at someone other than ourselves."

FireDragon76 said:

Conservative churches have it all wrong: the problem isn't that people haven't "heard the Gospel". The problem is that so few have seen it lived out.

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*applause*

I think this is a really excellent point.

Although, I think the issue of people leaving Christianity is also very diverse and complex, and includes many other things as well.

FireDragon76 said:

I think in regards to more mainline churches... just present what you and your church believes... intelligent people will understand there is more than one interpretation of being a Christian. And unintelligent people can be delt with by showing a superior sense of hospitality and courtesy. I mean, just some basic things one ought to consider, like, the fact that nobody likes to be told their religious beliefs they may already have are wrong. Nobody likes to be told they are a sinner or have offended God. Even if that stuff is true, nobody likes hearing it, and its not always helpful to hear only the things you don't want to hear coming from a complete stranger. So you have to think about how you say stuff, not just what you say. Many conservative Christians here are too focused on saying all the right things, and it shows.

Com, the problem is that it seems many conservative Christians think that "love" is best embodied by "sharing the Gospel", or rather "proselytizing/witnessing". And with the reality that the average non-Christian often having a better grasp of religious facts better than the average Christian, that's a fight the average Christian has already lost.

Conservative churches have it all wrong: the problem isn't that people haven't "heard the Gospel". The problem is that so few have seen it lived out.

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KitKatMatt said:

*applause*

I think this is a really excellent point.

Although, I think the issue of people leaving Christianity is also very diverse and complex, and includes many other things as well.

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Yes, yes, this was very good. Another round of applause.

Sadly, I do have to say, that sometimes here, responding with hospitality and courtesy, to fundamentalism, it is not effective, no. I had not realised, that there are so many differences, within the Baptist church, when I began here. I am Swedish, here for the gap year, and now I go, to a Baptist church, but have learnt, it is uncommonly liberal, for Baptist. I had posted, in the Baptist section, and got some very hateful, strange comments, yes, just for disagreeing, about verses. I got told, rubbish, that I cannot have faith, in Jesus, I cannot be a Christian, if I do not take, Genesis 1-11, as actual. If I do not believe, as they do, about women being ordained, homosexuality, other things, no. I had been very upset, at first.

What I have learned, is to just, not respond to people, who behave, with hostility. Wipe the dust, from your feet, yes. Move forward. Some, they will not accept, that there are different understandings, of the scripture, no matter, how carefully, or graciously, you explain. Look at the Baptist section right now, there is a thread, about it being battle line. I am just, not going, to get involved in it, because, if I explain my own beliefs, I will only be met, with harassment. I disagreed, about something else, where this woman, had written things, that were so offensive. My sister, had been with me, when I read had read, what that woman wrote, and was so offended, it hurt. Still, I was polite, with my disagreement, with her, I explained, my reasons for why, I disagreed, calmly, yes. This man wrote NINE posts, in his anger, that I had not, believed the verses, the same, as her. Moderators, they came, and deleted, many posts. There is nonstop, drama. They do not, just make it about, them not having the same beliefs as you, no. They make, any disagreement with their understanding, into you calling God a liar. They said you disagree with God, not that you, disagree, with their interpretations, of the verses, no. Fundamentalism, creationism, literalism, no, we do not much of that, in Sweden, I am not accustomed. I accept, that my naivety, and my inexperience with this part, of American culture, is part of the problem. What I have learnt to do, is to not take, what people on here, strangers to me, say, to heart, no. As Christians, we are to follow, Christ himself.

I grew up in a Southern Baptist church, as far as I know they and other Baptist churches are usually extremely conservative.

I changed my icon a little while back from Christian to this, because I was encountering so many people on this forum who belittled me and my beliefs. They called me "lukewarm", said that I was not a "True Christian" because I differed with them on topics, and insulted me in the way that I remember hearing when I was growing up with in that church.

Eventually, it's too much to handle.

Without those words, I'd still identify openly as a Christian. As it is now, I'm not sure what I am. I thought I knew, but I was chased from it by some very ugly attitudes and now am not sure if I want anything to do with it anymore.

FireDragon76 said:

I personally think the main issue is that most Christians have not been trained to think systematically or critically about their faith, and are not equipped to present good answers.

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I can speak only for myself, but as ex-Christian, I really don't expect Christians to have great answers which would solve my intellectual problems with the religion (for me the question is not about excistence of God, rather about which religion is right one). If they listen the question and give some thought to it, that's good enough for me.

Blue Wren said:

Fundamentalism, creationism, literalism, no, we do not much of that, in Sweden, I am not accustomed. I accept, that my naivety, and my inexperience with this part, of American culture, is part of the problem.

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I have user-group "Culture shocked Scandinavians on CF" for reason

http://www.christianforums.com/groups/566/

But what I personally like about American religious culture is that, it's more acceptable to actually believe in something in US. In Scandinavia I feel the athmosphere, even in churches, is way too secular for me. It's like, even if you are practising religion, you're not supposed to take it seriously at all. It just makes me feel like I can't breath.

FireDragon76 said:

There seems to be a growing number of former Christians on CF, and indeed, around the internet.

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I wish that you had posted this in a general Christian area, rather than a protected area, as it is not permissable to challenge in here the role of Liberal Christianity's in the decline.

Inkfingers said:

I wish that you had posted this in a general Christian area, rather than a protected area, as it is not permissable to challenge in here the role of Liberal Christianity's in the decline.

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You could always post a similar topic yourself in a general Christian area.

I think it's funny that I posted my part of being looked down on by other Christians because I hold different (liberal) views, and then someone comes in just because they want to say that Liberal Christianity itself has a roll in people leaving Christianity

FireDragon76 said:

There seems to be a growing number of former Christians on CF, and indeed, around the internet. And I see a recurring pattern going on here. People looking for answers to questions, they get simplistic answers from well-meaning people that are unsatisfying, the non-believers or doubters question them, and they get attacked by being told they are not believing or they are defying God's will, perhaps through harboring of various sins usually enumerated against them. So these people end up even more aggrevied against Christians and the Church.

I really think CF as a community needs to do something in response, otherwise it is just a case of presenting a stumbling block for the Gospel.

I personally think the main issue is that most Christians have not been trained to think systematically or critically about their faith, and are not equipped to present good answers. Indeed, perhaps a strong minority come from religious environments where asking questions is strongly discouraged, and intellectual and emotional objections are delt with in heavy-handed fashion, using psychological and sociological manipulation. "Bad religion". Something has to change, or we are going to have more and more people just leaving the Christian faith behind as irrelevant, or even being hostile to it altogether.

The only faith group I see doing a good job in this area are Roman Catholics, and to a much lesser extent, Lutherans. Catholic responses to atheists and agnostics on this forum seem to be much more appropriate responses- not necessarily the most thought out, but they know when to avoid discussions they will lose. And its important not to waste your time on these sorts of discussions as they just cause confusion and scandal for people that are doubting.

I also think we as Christians need to work on learning to be on the defensive and keep a Christ-like demeanor even when dealing with angry, bitter people. It's very tough. For centuries Christians haven't had to be defensive about their beliefs except for the most fundamentalist. Now everybody is under attack. So its a challenge.

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Pray?

"The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." ~James 5:16

Thank you kindly.

All we can do is being loving

I'm not a liberal Christian in most senses (sorry), but yes, it certainly is troubling. The problem is that some Christians--some of them liberal, some of them fundamentalist, some of them some mixture in between, some of them paradoxically both--are just plain wrong on something or other. While most people don't like admitting it, the Bible has some absolute, non-negotiable truths that, if you don't adhere to, mean that you're not really a Christian even if you identity as such--or you're just a cultural Christian or something.

Sometimes I myself wonder, "How can these people be Christians and believe this or that?" I got banned from CF for a day because of it, I'm ashamed to say. I learned then that God judges hearts, not people.

I think that in terms of "who to blame", both extremes might be responsible, and that's because many non-Christians seem to think that fundamentalism is the only option (even though they subconsciously know that realistically that can't be true), or they find that Christianity's views have changed too much and they can't stay. For some people, it goes too far left, and for others too far right.

I think maybe a good idea would be for an ecumenical group to set up a sort of "spectrum of Christianity" (It would be fun for me because then I could say I'm on the autism spectrum and the Christian spectrum! ) to determine what falls into orthodox, moderate, conservative, and liberal in terms of beliefs, and then people can sort of place themselves somewhere and let the secular public understand that there are a variety of beliefs within the spectrum, and if they don't like one church they can go find another one, although a big part of being a Christian is learning to put up with Christians that disagree with you. I think that is what non-Christians need to realize--it doesn't matter how much they agree or disagree with "those people in that church", they just need to go in there understanding the basics.

FireDragon76 said:

Barna and other groups have done surveys on youth attitudes to Christianity. There's a lot of negative attitudes. The top perceptions are that Christians do not like gays and that they are judgemental. Both are assosciated with conservative, not liberal, Christian attitudes.

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For ex-Christians this is bloody obvious, but it's yet another one of those one hundred thousand obvious things in real life that conservative/fundie Christians just choose to refuse to admit. Pick 10 random ex-Christians and ask them about their most negative experiences with Christians, and I bet 9-10 of them have most negative experiences with conservatives.

To me it looks in a nutshell like conservative strategy is to try to bully as many people out of Christian circles as they can and then blame liberals for them leaving.

grandvizier1006 said:

While most people don't like admitting it, the Bible has some absolute, non-negotiable truths that, if you don't adhere to, mean that you're not really a Christian even if you identity as such--or you're just a cultural Christian or something.

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I understand where you're coming from, but I disagree with this. That's one of the reasons why I'm on the liberal forum!

I think this is the kind of attitude that can really upset some people; this sort of 'Oh you think that? You're not really a Christian then, you're not really saved.' I think this is part of what can drive people away.

JackofSpades said:

Pick 10 random ex-Christians and ask them about their most negative experiences with Christians, and I bet 9-10 of them have most negative experiences with conservatives.

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Very true! And I think a lot of people think we're all like the conservatives

"the Bible has some absolute, non-negotiable truths that, if you don't adhere to, mean that you're not really a Christian even if you identity as such"

and who declares what the "non-negotiable truths" are -- that if you don't adhere to - yer not a Christian?

Who declares this -- YOU ??

Who died and made you God?