Uh no, I didn't go the Heaven, that was made up.

doubtingmerle · Jan 18, 2015

"The Boy Who Came Back from Heaven" now admits that he didn't go to heaven and the story was all made up. See Boy Says He Didn't Go To Heaven; Publisher Says It Will Pull Book : The Two-Way : NPR . It is sad that a made-up story can have such influence. Come to think of it, is there any fact you can rely on that proves people can survive death and go to heaven?

Abandoned Barns · Jan 18, 2015

I don't think there really can be "proof" only God's word, but to believe that you must have faith.

doubtingmerle · Jan 18, 2015

Abandoned Barns said:
I don't think there really can be "proof" only God's word, but to believe that you must have faith.

And this is one of the verses you have faith in?

Eccl. 3:19 For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same. As one dies so dies the other; indeed, they all have the same breath and there is no advantage for man over beast, for all is vanity.

Hetta · Jan 18, 2015

Wow. I have never read any of those books because I simply don't believe them. The fact that this boy lied at such a young age suggests a great deal of parental influence, and given that, these parents and the kid are not exactly people in which anyone can place their confidence.

bhsmte · Jan 18, 2015

doubtingmerle said:
"The Boy Who Came Back from Heaven" now admits that he didn't go to heaven and the story was all made up. See Boy Says He Didn't Go To Heaven; Publisher Says It Will Pull Book : The Two-Way : NPR . It is sad that a made-up story can have such influence. Come to think of it, is there any fact you can rely on that proves people can survive death and go to heaven?

Is this the book they also made a movie about, or was that another near death experience?

Hentenza · Jan 18, 2015

doubtingmerle said:
And this is one of the verses you have faith in?

Eccl. 3:19 For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same. As one dies so dies the other; indeed, they all have the same breath and there is no advantage for man over beast, for all is vanity.

How do you interpret the verse you quoted?

Abandoned Barns · Jan 18, 2015

doubtingmerle said:
And this is one of the verses you have faith in?

Eccl. 3:19 For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same. As one dies so dies the other; indeed, they all have the same breath and there is no advantage for man over beast, for all is vanity.

i do, but I'm not sure I'm taking your point.

doubtingmerle · Jan 18, 2015

Abandoned Barns said:
i do, but I'm not sure I'm taking your point.

That verse says people die just like beasts and there is no advantage of people over beasts at death. It seems to teach that life ends at death.

brinny · Jan 18, 2015

doubtingmerle said:
That verse says people die just like beasts and there is no advantage of people over beasts at death. It seems to teach that life ends at death.

It means that both man and beast returns to the dust from whence they came, does it not?

Thank you kindly.

oi_antz · Jan 18, 2015

brinny said:
It means that both man and beast returns to the dust from whence they came, does it not?

Thank you kindly.

It clearly does. What does it say about the human's advantage over the beast at resurrection? This is interesting to me, I love animals.

Abandoned Barns · Jan 18, 2015

doubtingmerle said:
That verse says people die just like beasts and there is no advantage of people over beasts at death. It seems to teach that life ends at death.

Now I see your point. In my view this verse is speaking to physical death and that's true; the physical bodies of both men and animals will eventually die, return to the earth and become dust. The author of Ecclesiastes also speaks to the idea of our non-physical selves being returned to God for judgement.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (ESV) said:
and the dust return to the earth as it was, and the spirit return unto God who gave it.

so I guess it really depends on what you see as the "end of life". While it's true our physical bodies will not come with, nor will any of the riches or worldly possessions we've accumulated, it truly is the end of physical life. I know you've probably heard it before but we're told in a pretty straightforward way that were all sinners:

Romans 5:12 (ESV) said:
Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned

and that the cost of sin is death:

Romans 6:23(ESV) said:
23For the wages of sin is death,

but that through Christ there will be something else:

Romans 6:23(ESV) said:
but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

it's the essential message of the Gospel and the basis of all Christian faith.

2PhiloVoid · Jan 18, 2015

doubtingmerle said:
"The Boy Who Came Back from Heaven" now admits that he didn't go to heaven and the story was all made up. See Boy Says He Didn't Go To Heaven; Publisher Says It Will Pull Book : The Two-Way : NPR . It is sad that a made-up story can have such influence. Come to think of it, is there any fact you can rely on that proves people can survive death and go to heaven?

This is a different boy than the one who was recently represented in the recent book and movie, Heaven Is for Real. You do realize this, right? :preach:

Let's not get ourselves overly worked up over this.

doubtingmerle · Jan 18, 2015

2PhiloVoid said:
This is a different boy than the one who was recently represented in the recent book and movie

Right, but this book had hit the best seller lists five years ago. It turns out it was based on a lie.

doubtingmerle · Jan 18, 2015

Abandoned Barns said:
Now I see your point. In my view this verse is speaking to physical death and that's true; the physical bodies of both men and animals will eventually die, return to the earth and become dust. The author of Ecclesiastes also speaks to the idea of our non-physical selves being returned to God for judgement.

It does? Where does Ecclesiastes say anything about a spirit going to heaven?

Have you ever read the Old Testament? My impression is that it has little if any conception of life after death until we come to books like Daniel which were written long after the captivity.

2PhiloVoid · Jan 18, 2015

doubtingmerle said:
Right, but this book had hit the best seller lists five years ago. It turns out it was based on a lie.

Sure, but now there's another book/movie/story that is out that may very well not be a lie.

Regardless, our faith in Christ is not dependent on contemporary experiences (or fabrications), but our own experiences and learning in the light of the historic testimony of the church, going back to the Apostles and the earlier Jewish prophets. So, one bad story today doesn't have to knock down the whole infrastructure of faith, Merle.

Peace

Messy · Jan 18, 2015

doubtingmerle said:
It does? Where does Ecclesiastes say anything about a spirit going to heaven?

Have you ever read the Old Testament? My impression is that it has little if any conception of life after death until we come to books like Daniel which were written long after the captivity.

Elijah went to heaven and Enoch. Samuel was not just dead and non existing, he spoke to Saul and he said he would be with him the next day.

Abandoned Barns · Jan 18, 2015

doubtingmerle said:
It does? Where does Ecclesiastes say anything about a spirit going to heaven?

Have you ever read the Old Testament? My impression is that it has little if any conception of life after death until we come to books like Daniel which were written long after the captivity.

Well, I'm inclined to believe that the second verse I quoted above (Ecclesiastes 12:7) speaks to going to heaven.

I'm no preacher, but of course I've read the Old Testiment. I think the purpose of the Old Testiment was to convey the law (i.e.tell folks how to behave) rather then to teach the good news of the new covenant, but I do think it contains references to heaven as early as Genisis:

Genisis 5:23 (NIV) said:
Enoch walked faithfully with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.

Genisis 15:15 (NIV) said:
As for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you will be buried at a good old age.

and Deuteronomy:

Deuteronomy 32:50 (NIV) said:
"Then die on the mountain where you ascend, and be gathered to your people, as Aaron your brother died on Mount Hor and was gathered to his people,

i read that in the original Greek its fairly easy to distinguish that the terms "go to your fathers" and "gathered to your people" refer to actually meeting people and not simply a euphemism for burial.

Am I aggravating you? Maybe its just the hour at which I'm reading this, but your post seemed angry?

doubtingmerle · Jan 19, 2015

2PhiloVoid said:
Sure, but now there's another book/movie/story that is out that may very well not be a lie.

And the other story might also be false, yes?

It seems that tales of near-death experiences are an unreliable source of truth.

doubtingmerle · Jan 19, 2015

Messy said:
Elijah went to heaven and Enoch. Samuel was not just dead and non existing, he spoke to Saul and he said he would be with him the next day.

Elijah is said to have been taken up into the sky in a chariot. Where he went after that is not clear. That can hardly be taken as evidence that one's spirit would go to heaven while his body was in the grave, or that the body would someday resurrect.

And of Elisha it is clearly said that he died and was buried.

And the claim that the claim that the Witch of Endor called back Samuel from the grave is hardly a claim that all spirits go to heaven.

doubtingmerle · Jan 19, 2015

Abandoned Barns said:
Well, I'm inclined to believe that the second verse I quoted above (Ecclesiastes 12:7) speaks to going to heaven.

Ok, that says the body returns to the earth and the spirit returns to God. The NASB says "spirit" could be translated as breath. That seems to be a more natural reading--the body returns to dirt and the breath returns to the atmosphere.

Until we get to books like Daniel written long after most of the rest of the old Testament, I see no place where the Old Testament promise people they can live forever. Nowhere does it say to consider the heavenly consequences of life's decisions. As I read it, it is all about following Yahweh in order to have God's protection on earth.

Am I aggravating you? Maybe its just the hour at which I'm reading this, but your post seemed angry?

No anger at all. Thanks for your responses.

Uh no, I didn't go the Heaven, that was made up.

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