WoF and the Focus on Miracles

olderguy said:

I'm actually glad that you agreed with me. Typical Christians say sins don't mean anything to God. They think we can sin all we want and it effects nothing. I never did agree with them on this, not even as a baby Christian.

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Well, I'd hope the TYPICAL Christian doesn't think sin s nothing. Continuing in sin is wrong.


But with Christ, sin has been put away from us. Not that we wont sin, but the punishment for sin is paid for. Jesus made the payment, we owe nothing more.


But as Paul says in Romans (read chapters 6 and 7 especially) sin has effects on us. It entices us and pulls us toward the curse of the world. And if we choose to walk in the curse we have abandoned the blessing.


It is your choice. Blessing or curse.

olderguy said:

I agree with what you said, I just use different words. I consider sin to block us off from God's energies. Br Hagin would have said the anointing can't reach us. I envision God as bathing the Earth in His holiness all the time. Most people can't grab it. Hagin once said if a person is strong enough in faith that person can just reach out and take what they need from God. But I say sin blocks it, kinda like a force field. God's energy can't reach us unless He intervenes to override His own spiritual laws. God does this, but not usually.

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Kenneth Hagin taught us to speak the Word.

When we choose to frame things in language that is not in the Word, we begin to open the door for aberration in our understanding. When you speak of "energies" all I can think of is New Age. There are many "energies" used in that movement.

I would caution you about this, although I'm sure your intentions are quite sincere and you feel it helps you understand things better. No, I would learn t speak the Word. Use the words found n the Word. Analogies are fine -- I use them time and again -- but your speech should be the Word. Don't water it down.

olderguy said:

You see, I think I know the sin blocking me. I smoke tobacco and I've felt for at least 7 - 8 yrs that God wants me to stop it.

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I covered this in another post back to you (or maybe wrapped in a reply to Marcia). Check it out.

Basha21 said:

I absolutely believe that we need to speak the Word only so that it will come to pass in our lives--it's a spiritual principal, a supernatural law; but that doesn't negate the effect of sin in our lives.

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Well, let's look at a couple things.

First, I agree in concept with what you've said and agree that it is easier to teach the "effect of sin in our lives."

So, obviously we have two things to consider:

(1) Sin as it relates to salvation.


When we are saved God forgives ALL of our sins. Salvifically they are removed forever. This is why we read:


How can it be said that we are not able to sin when we know we sin daily?

This is because God doesn't recognize our sin any longer. We are seen through Jesus' Blood. We are washed in the Blood. We are imputed the righteousness if Jesus.


As far as God is concerned, our sins are removed. Gone.

So that brings up....

(2) Sin as it relates to sanctification.

This is where Romans comes in. Chapter 7:14


There is a separation of our new man, our spirit man, from our old man, our carnal man. 1 John 3:9 refers to our new man. Our spirit is new, pure, sinless. But when we transgress God's commands it is sin in us, our old man, that is doing this.

Now our soulish man has a choice: follow the spirit man or the carnal man. This is where sanctification plays its part. God won't force our answer here, but He will guide through His Holy Spirit to convict us toward righteousness.


So, sanctification. Notice in the bold: :do not present your members to sin". You are anew man, sinless. Your carnal self still is enticed by sin. Your soulish man, under sanctification, needs to learn to choose: spirit or carnal; blessing or curse; life or death.

Your sin is not salvific, but rather it affects you walk. God protects you once your sins are forgiven.


But the devil is the accuser of old. He s a liar, a deceiver, and he is out to steal, kill and destroy whatever he can of your blessing. You see in 1 John 5 above that he can't touch you salvifically.

What he does is lie to us. He makes us ponder sin. He convinces us to step outside the hedge of protection. He gets us to step into the curse.

When we do this we become double-minded in many ways.

At times we attempt to justify our sin. "That's not so bad." "That's just a 'little' sin." We attempt to have fun with our sin.

At other times we recognize our sin and it shames us. We withdrawal instead of falling before God for help. Understand, He's already done away with the very sin we are ashamed of. So what are we ashamed of?

Ultimately, our position makes us doubt that we are worthy to approach God, to ask for something, to think that we are worthy enough to receive. It is our double-mindedness that truly gets in our way.

Sure, the root cause is our sin. But sin didn't stop God: He already forgave us and views us as a child who cannot sin (1 John 3:9). But He expects, through our sanctification, that we will strive for confidence in Him and His promises.


When we embrace the sin in us (remember, Paul says our transgression is not us, but sin in us -- our old man) and allow it to take us out of the blessing we are affected. We become double-minded. And it is this lack of confidence in God's will for us that hinders our results.

Remember:


According to His will. We know this to be according to His Word, His promises. But it also is our confidence. For that is according to His will as well.

Awesome post, Harry!

hhodgson said:

We must keep in mind that sin is "no longer" an issue with God since we have received full redemption by His finished work on the cross... It wasn't confessing your sins that made you born-again. It was confessing Jesus Christ as your
Saviour. But, it may become an issue if it affects other people. Then we should go to them and make it right.

Now, repentance is another story. We should be leading a repentance life-style, but... I don't mean the bawling and squalling type most of us were taught. True repentance is "changing of the mind and turn away."

In the bold part of your quote, I would change the word from (have) to (want) to be as sin free as possible. By having to strive or "must" do something would be based on what WE do... (works). The message most Christians are HEARING says... that sin breaks your relationship or fellowship with God. The strictest message says that you lose your salvation (backslide) every time you sin, until it's confessed. Others believe your eternal salvation is still secure, but you lose fellowship, can't get your prayers answered, or can't be used of God if you sin. That's not true since all of us sin (Rom. 3:23 and 1 john 1:8).​

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Amen. Good post!!

The key point to understand,is no one can keep the law and remain sinless.

The law when broken was sin and sin was a curse in its self from the law.

Christ has once and for all removed the curse of the law by his remission of all sin of mankind on the Cross.

Galatians: 3. 13. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: - Bible Offline

As Christians God in looking on us only sees Christ in us not flesh.
This is spiritual,our spirits are redeemed but our minds and flesh are not.

We must sanctify our flesh to walk in the blessing,and the flesh wars against the spirit.
The result of a child of God living a sin filled life,would be outside of the blessing.
Such a circumstance would bare the torment of sin,because our bodies are still in the temporal world.

A child of God should fall under conviction from sin by the Holy Spirit,personally
I could not fathom a Christian living in deliberate sin and being unaware.

So as Christians we are once and for all forgiven of sin,but are not immune to the
pitfalls.

Romans: 8. 1. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4. That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. - Bible Offline

Basic Christian values.

I truly cannot understand why this topic gets so mixed up.

Some want to blame their past sins for unanswered prayer.
The Devil is a liar,all of your sin has been bought by the blood of Christ.

Some say well then I guess there is no sin Sin all you want!
The Devil is a liar,There is no condemnation for those who walk after the spirit and not after the flesh,just because you are redeemed doesn't give to the right to live like the devil.
walking after the spirit is the process of sanctification or to crucify the flesh.

My hope is none will take offence with these undeniable promises of God.

now faith said:

The key point to understand,is no one can keep the law and remain sinless.

The law when broken was sin and sin was a curse in its self from the law.

Christ has once and for all removed the curse of the law by his remission of all sin of mankind on the Cross.

Galatians: 3. 13. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: - Bible Offline

As Christians God in looking on us only sees Christ in us not flesh.
This is spiritual,our spirits are redeemed but our minds and flesh are not.

We must sanctify our flesh to walk in the blessing,and the flesh wars against the spirit.
The result of a child of God living a sin filled life,would be outside of the blessing.
Such a circumstance would bare the torment of sin,because our bodies are still in the temporal world.

A child of God should fall under conviction from sin by the Holy Spirit,personally
I could not fathom a Christian living in deliberate sin and being unaware.

So as Christians we are once and for all forgiven of sin,but are not immune to the
pitfalls.

Romans: 8. 1. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4. That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. - Bible Offline

Basic Christian values.

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Beautiful explanation!! Great post.

The bold above is what 1 John 3 is all about:

now faith said:

I truly cannot understand why this topic gets so mixed up.

Some want to blame their past sins for unanswered prayer.
The Devil is a liar,all of your sin has been bought by the blood of Christ.

Some say well then I guess there is no sin Sin all you want!
The Devil is a liar,There is no condemnation for those who walk after the spirit and not after the flesh,just because you are redeemed doesn't give to the right to live like the devil.
walking after the spirit is the process of sanctification or to crucify the flesh.

My hope is none will take offence with these undeniable promises of God.

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Amen!

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You all are making great points, I started to answer some individually, but then there were so many, I gave up!

Just keep in mind that the spirit is perfected, but the flesh is not. The soul (our mind, will and emotions) sits in the middle and chooses which to follow. Our lives on this earth are a mixture of both walking in the spirit, and walking in the flesh. When we are walking in the spirit we are not under the law, because there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. But when we are walking in the flesh, the law takes hold, and brings with it death.

God is not withholding anything good from us in either case. He is not sitting in heaven deciding when we are walking in the spirit enough to receive blessings and when we are walking in the flesh and need to be cut off. We separate ourselves from Gods blessings when we walk in the flesh through the law of condemnation because walking in the flesh puts us under the law and the law always brings condemnation; it is the strength of sin. It is our own conscience that the law uses because our conscience knows, it ALWAYS knows. It was the law that was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, it is in our heart, and in our mind, and we know. That is why the the law will not pass away until all is fulfilled, because both the unsaved world, and the flesh still operate under the law.

The only way to free the flesh from the law of sin (and death) is to walk in the spirit, and consider the flesh dead. This allows the resurrection life of Jesus to flow into our corruptible flesh, and it can then to be used by the Spirit of God. It is an irony that only flesh reckoned dead is promised to be quickened by the Spirit of God.

Peace...

Faith Shield said:

I agree with Harry - sin is no longer an issue with God. Why is it that Christians are so sin-focused rather than being righteous-in-Christ-focused? They say, "You're right with God through Christ, by faith". Then, they say, "If you do this or that then you're not righteous and must repent, so that you can become righteous again." It brings freedom to know that you can live your life without the threat of making a little mistake that could bring you out of fellowship with God. It’s an awful way to live your life, to have to check everything you do against the Bible.

This is why I transitioned from WoF ten years ago into the grace message. But I still believe there is something good about WoF. I just don't like the way that WoF can tend to be so law-oriented rather than grace-oriented. I think WoF needs to head more in the direction of the likes of Joseph Prince, who cites Kenneth Hagin as being one of his greatest influences.

Sin becomes an issue when it adversely affects other people. We shouldn't even call it "sin", as Jesus bore all our sin on the cross - it would be a lack of faith to believe otherwise. Most Christians believe we should follow the Ten Commandments. We should remind ourselves that this states that working on a Sunday is a sin! However, the law has been fulfilled by Jesus. The New and better covenant fulfils the law. Now, we have one commandment: that we love one another. Kenneth Hagin wrote about this in his book: Love the Way to Victory. Our focus should be more on walking in love, rather than “not sinning”.

I think we’re afraid of people getting away with wrongdoing. People uphold sin and divine retribution from a desire to see justice fulfilled. But most of what we deem to be "sin" carries its own payload of punishment – there’s no need for further punishment from God. Take for example those who commit a crime: they risk being punished by the judicial system. Someone who drinks or smokes heavily risks their health as well as wasting their money on their vice. If a person is consistently rude to people – its not going to work out well for them.

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Sin becomes an issue when it adversely affects other people. [UN QUOTE ]



If I am to understand this statement,Sin has no adverse reactions on the individual as long as it does not involve others.

1 John: 1. 6. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Verse 8 is contrary to your statement.

Here is a issue with Sin:
James: 1. 15. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. 16. Do not err, my beloved brethren.

Kenneth Hagin never said it's ok to sin as long as it doesn't harm anyone else.

In what way would a individual determine if their sin was a negative prospect for others?

Romans 14 covers how some would be weaker than others in matters of ordinances and vows.
There is a difference between a vow of a sanitary ordinance,and a abomination.

Smoking and eating foodstuffs could be sin to some who impose a decree they will not partake.

Yet for those who have Faith to partake on them it is not sin.

Worshipping golden calves is a sin no matter the circumstances.

dkbwarrior said:

You all are making great points, I started to answer some individually, but then there were so many, I gave up!

Just keep in mind that the spirit is perfected, but the flesh is not. The soul (our mind, will and emotions) sits in the middle and chooses which to follow. Our lives on this earth are a mixture of both walking in the spirit, and walking in the flesh. When we are walking in the spirit we are not under the law, because there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. But when we are walking in the flesh, the law takes hold, and brings with it death.

God is not withholding anything good from us in either case. He is not sitting in heaven deciding when we are walking in the spirit enough to receive blessings and when we are walking in the flesh and need to be cut off. We separate ourselves from Gods blessings when we walk in the flesh through the law of condemnation because walking in the flesh puts us under the law and the law always brings condemnation; it is the strength of sin. It is our own conscience that the law uses because our conscience knows, it ALWAYS knows. It was the law that was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, it is in our heart, and in our mind, and we know. That is why the the law will not pass away until all is fulfilled, because both the unsaved world, and the flesh still operate under the law.

The only way to free the flesh from the law of sin (and death) is to walk in the spirit, and consider the flesh dead. This allows the resurrection life of Jesus to flow into our corruptible flesh, and it can then to be used by the Spirit of God. It is an irony that only flesh reckoned dead is promised to be quickened by the Spirit of God.

Peace...

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I was trained in the grace message before I became wof, so I really agree with this.

It might be good to start a thread on walking in the Spirit.

It's a whole lot easier than people think.

And it's all done by grace.