What scriptures show there would be an apostasy?

BigDaddy4

It's a new season...
Sep 4, 2008
7,442
1,983
Washington
✟217,719.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
No, I'm not suggesting that. Prior to the Restoration (which is an ongoing thing, not an event in 1830), the Christian world was mostly unaware that the Gospel of Christ had been effectively supplanted by something that was, in part, only a semblance of the Gospel. In other words, the spiritual wool had been largely pulled over the eyes of Christianity, relative to the true Gospel.

Of course, many Christians inwardly began to be aware that something was amiss, but were not able to restore the truth, in spite of great efforts to do so. Restoring the truth was only possible through the same means by which the Gospel had first been given to man—by revelation. Study and analysis of the scriptures...debate and discussion...these things were ineffective to do what could only be done through God's power.

Which is all a bunch of baloney, as you cannot prove anything you claim above ever happened.

When God restored the Gospel and Priesthood to the earth, Satan's machinations against the Gospel—which had been perpetuated by Christians for centuries, who understood that that which they believed was the "whole truth"—were exposed. The man of sin, who had usurped among men that authority which belongs to God alone and who had thereby placed himself in the place of God, was revealed.

That is the significance of what I wrote.

God has not "restored" any such thing because neither was lost.

Refer to this post for Scripture that has not been fulfilled yet.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7850954/#post66608499

3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,


Who specifically is the man of lawlessness? Are you calling Satan a man?

4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

Has Satan, or any man for that matter, taken his seat in the temple of God and tried to display himself as God?

Please provide specific references in which you believe this has happened. Whether it is true or not will be a different matter...
 
Upvote 0

MormonFriend

Senior Veteran
Sep 2, 2003
5,659
91
California
Visit site
✟6,575.00
Faith
Mormon
Dear Trevor,

Do you believe that Paul stated clearly in II Thessalonians 2 that the apostasy will not take place until the "Man of sin" is revealed? If you do, precisely who was that Man of sin?

All the best,

bbbbbbb

I have always read that as meaning the coming of the Lord will not happen until the two events happen. Open to correction if applicable.
 
Upvote 0

MormonFriend

Senior Veteran
Sep 2, 2003
5,659
91
California
Visit site
✟6,575.00
Faith
Mormon
All well and good. So who was the Man of sin who was revealed before the apostasy? Note, I do not ask about evil men who otherwise do not conform to the biblical conditions of the Man of sin. Indeed, I John states clearly that there have been, and are, many anti-Christs, but there will be only one Anti-Christ.

I would not rule out Obama! ��
 
Upvote 0

TrevorL

Regular Member
Aug 20, 2004
590
54
Lake Macquarie NSW
✟56,943.00
Faith
Unitarian
Marital Status
Married
Greetings again bbbbbbb,

Do you believe that Paul stated clearly in II Thessalonians 2 that the apostasy will not take place until the "Man of sin" is revealed? If you do, precisely who was that Man of sin?
I have always read that as meaning the coming of the Lord will not happen until the two events happen. Open to correction if applicable.
A careful read of the whole passage could help.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 (KJV): 1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
The first thing to note is that the Thessalonians were unsettled because they thought that the second coming was imminent. Paul reassures them that this was not imminent, as there would first be a falling away, or an apostasy. Paul then is not saying that the “Man of sin” had to appear first, before the apostasy, but the coming of Jesus would be preceded by an apostasy. Paul states that this would take time to develop, and thus the idea that this will only be a sudden development just before Jesus’ return is also ruled out.

The question is whether the “Man of sin” must only be revealed immediately or a short time before the coming of Christ. If the “Man of sin” is simply one person, then it would have to be within his lifetime of say 70 years or say 20-30 years. But if the “Man of sin” represents a system headed up by one man, then this “Man of sin” could have started some time after the Apostles and continued until the coming of Jesus.

I believe that this is the Papacy, and much of the detail of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 could be understood by this development. I also believe that the little horn of the fourth beast in Daniel 7 is speaking of this power, and again this system was to exist until the coming of Jesus. The Catholic Church has persecuted the true believers as Daniel 7 describes.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
Upvote 0

Mark51

Newbie
Supporter
Nov 11, 2014
495
97
72
✟89,056.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Apostasy is abandoning or deserting the worship and service of God, actually a rebellion against Him. Some apostates profess to know and serve God but reject teachings or requirements set out in his Word. Others claim to believe the Bible but reject His organization.

These additional scriptures are applicable:

Numbers 16:1-3, 11, 19-21
Job 13:16
Proverbs 11:9
Isaiah 32:6
Matthew 24:14, 45-51; 28:19, 20
Luke 6:46
Acts 20:30
Romans 16:17, 18
2 Thessalonians 2:3
1 Timothy 4:1
2 Timothy 2:16-18
Hebrews 6:4-6
2 Peter 2:1, 3
2 John 9, 10
Jude 8, 11
 
Upvote 0

drstevej

"The crowd always chooses Barabbas."
In Memory Of
Mar 18, 2003
47,493
27,114
74
Lousianna
✟1,001,611.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
T
Perhaps you have forgotten your Protestant roots?
Every major branch of Protestantism started with men who declared the bishop of Rome is the antichrist or is the man of sin.
For an apostasy to occur the tenets of Christianity must be replaced.
1. Baptism - from immersion to sprinkling with "holy [salted] water."
2. persecution and execution of Christians as heretics
3. adoption of pagan names and holiday dates
4. preventing priests and bishops from marrying in contravention of 1 Timothy and in fulfillment of prophecy.
5. sale of indulgences for forgiveness of sins
6. etc

Your knowledge of historic Protestantism is abysmal. The English Baptists (Smyth, Helwys and Murton) held NONE of these tennets.

Apostasy includes:
  • Heavenly Mother hymns
  • Masonic Rituals and Handshakes
  • A deity from Kolob who turns folks black so they do not entice delightsome white folk
  • Single Teen Elders
  • Indian Israelism, et al.
 
Upvote 0
B

bbbbbbb

Guest
Your knowledge of historic Protestantism is abysmal. The English Baptists (Smyth, Helwys and Murton) held NONE of these tennets.

Apostasy includes:
  • Heavenly Mother hymns
  • Masonic Rituals and Handshakes
  • A deity from Kolob who turns folks black so they do not entice delightsome white folk
  • Single Teen Elders
  • Indian Israelism, et al.

Not to mention:

  • A Jesus who is one of a multitude of children sired by God, including Lucifer
  • A physical God who cannot be omnipresent or omniscient
  • A henotheism had a godhead composed of three gods.
  • An atonement which is only sufficient to resurrect dead people.
  • A heaven which is not where Jesus is permitted to dwell.
 
Upvote 0

RevelationTestament

Our God is a consuming fire.
Apr 26, 2013
3,727
46
United States
✟19,404.00
Faith
Mormon
Marital Status
Married
Your knowledge of historic Protestantism is abysmal. The English Baptists (Smyth, Helwys and Murton) held NONE of these tennets.


I didn't say Protestants held any of the beliefs. I listed them to show they recognized these beliefs as being apostate and the basis for the man of sin being the bishop of Rome, but now they want to claim that there was no apostasy - that although they allegedly restored the truth, the church has not gone apostate - a very contradictory position. How can the bishop be the man of sin as they all claimed and yet there be no apostasy? In truth it is just an argument of convenience, because if they admit there was an apostasy, then the Church of Jesus Christ would be the only valid restoration of the priesthood in existence.
 
Upvote 0

RevelationTestament

Our God is a consuming fire.
Apr 26, 2013
3,727
46
United States
✟19,404.00
Faith
Mormon
Marital Status
Married
Apostasy is abandoning or deserting the worship and service of God, actually a rebellion against Him. Some apostates profess to know and serve God but reject teachings or requirements set out in his Word. Others claim to believe the Bible but reject His organization.

These additional scriptures are applicable:

Numbers 16:1-3, 11, 19-21
Job 13:16
Proverbs 11:9
Isaiah 32:6
Matthew 24:14, 45-51; 28:19, 20
Luke 6:46
Acts 20:30
Romans 16:17, 18
2 Thessalonians 2:3
1 Timothy 4:1
2 Timothy 2:16-18
Hebrews 6:4-6
2 Peter 2:1, 3
2 John 9, 10
Jude 8, 11

Very comprehensive :)
 
Upvote 0
B

bbbbbbb

Guest
I didn't say Protestants held any of the beliefs. I listed them to show they recognized these beliefs as being apostate and the basis for the man of sin being the bishop of Rome, but now they want to claim that there was no apostasy - that although they allegedly restored the truth, the church has not gone apostate - a very contradictory position. How can the bishop be the man of sin as they all claimed and yet there be no apostasy? In truth it is just an argument of convenience, because if they admit there was an apostasy, then the Church of Jesus Christ would be the only valid restoration of the priesthood in existence.

I was unaware that you are a member of this denomination - The Church of Jesus Christ - The Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ - Your Spiritual Home for a Faith-Centered Life
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

RevelationTestament

Our God is a consuming fire.
Apr 26, 2013
3,727
46
United States
✟19,404.00
Faith
Mormon
Marital Status
Married
Upvote 0

peebly63

Well-Known Member
Mar 21, 2013
1,401
15
✟1,639.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Not to mention:

  • A Jesus who is one of a multitude of children sired by God, including Lucifer
  • A physical God who cannot be omnipresent or omniscient
  • A henotheism had a godhead composed of three gods.
  • An atonement which is only sufficient to resurrect dead people.
  • A heaven which is not where Jesus is permitted to dwell.

but apart from all these and many more listed the have got it pretty buttoned down..
 
Upvote 0

drstevej

"The crowd always chooses Barabbas."
In Memory Of
Mar 18, 2003
47,493
27,114
74
Lousianna
✟1,001,611.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Don't forget
  • garden of Eden in Missouri
  • Joseph Smith stamping passports for eternity
  • man is God in embryo
  • handshake test to detect angelic messengers
  • bread and water communion
  • eternal marriages and planet populating
 
Upvote 0

drstevej

"The crowd always chooses Barabbas."
In Memory Of
Mar 18, 2003
47,493
27,114
74
Lousianna
✟1,001,611.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I didn't say Protestants held any of the beliefs. I listed them to show they recognized these beliefs as being apostate and the basis for the man of sin being the bishop of Rome, but now they want to claim that there was no apostasy - that although they allegedly restored the truth, the church has not gone apostate - a very contradictory position. How can the bishop be the man of sin as they all claimed and yet there be no apostasy? In truth it is just an argument of convenience, because if they admit there was an apostasy, then the Church of Jesus Christ would be the only valid restoration of the priesthood in existence.

They affirmed a REFORMATION not a RESTORATION.
None of their churches claimed to be THE exclusive church.

You do not understand the Reformation.

If your wife asks you to toss out the clutter, change the drapes and repaint the house that is reformation. It is not the same as bulldozing the house and rebuilding.
 
Upvote 0

RevelationTestament

Our God is a consuming fire.
Apr 26, 2013
3,727
46
United States
✟19,404.00
Faith
Mormon
Marital Status
Married
They affirmed a REFORMATION not a RESTORATION.
None of their churches claimed to be THE exclusive church.

You do not understand the Reformation.

If your wife asks you to toss out the clutter, change the drapes and repaint the house that is reformation. It is not the same as bulldozing the house and rebuilding.

Uh huh. But scriptures indicate the whole world would be fooled by this man - hence the need to "reform" the church. They said he had no authority, had led everybody astray and hence the church needed to be "reformed." So they threw out everything except the doctrine of the trinity and some of its creeds and started over. But still there was no "apostasy" - how "convenient."
The LDS church just finishes the job and completes the "reformation." The LDS church "reformed" the church without the "creeds...." So back to pre 325 AD and on from there.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

drstevej

"The crowd always chooses Barabbas."
In Memory Of
Mar 18, 2003
47,493
27,114
74
Lousianna
✟1,001,611.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Uh huh. But scriptures indicate the whole world would be fooled by this man - hence the need to "reform" the church. They said he had no authority, had led everybody astray and hence the church needed to be "reformed." So they threw out everything except the doctrine of the trinity and some of its creeds and started over. But still there was no "apostasy" - how "convenient."
The LDS church just finishes the job and completes the "reformation." The LDS church "reformed" the church without the "creeds...." So back to pre 325 AD and on from there.

Your knowledge of Protestant history is abysmal. Thanks for additional documentation. Oh, there was no documentation of these claims.

Explain how these things transpired in Wittenburg? In Geneva? In Basel? In England? In Holland?

Wanna start a formal debate thread on the Reformation? Or do you prefer to splash your revisionistic comments here hoping readers will buy it.
 
Upvote 0

Ran77

Senior Contributor
Mar 18, 2004
17,177
270
Arizona
✟36,652.00
Faith
Mormon
Marital Status
Married
Your knowledge of Protestant history is abysmal. Thanks for additional documentation. Oh, there was no documentation of these claims.

Where is yours? Someone who generally doesn't provide documentation for their comments really doesn't have a legitimate complaint on this matter. Especially against the person who is probably the one who provides the most documentation for his points of anyone in the Unorthodox forum.


:doh:
 
Upvote 0

BigDaddy4

It's a new season...
Sep 4, 2008
7,442
1,983
Washington
✟217,719.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Uh huh. But scriptures indicate the whole world would be fooled by this man - hence the need to "reform" the church. They said he had no authority, had led everybody astray and hence the church needed to be "reformed." So they threw out everything except the doctrine of the trinity and some of its creeds and started over. But still there was no "apostasy" - how "convenient."
The LDS church just finishes the job and completes the "reformation." The LDS church "reformed" the church without the "creeds...." So back to pre 325 AD and on from there.

What man? This one (2 Thes. 2:3-4)?

3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

Who in history fits this complete description? And where is your evidence? It has been asked before in this thread and only the crickets answered...
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

RevelationTestament

Our God is a consuming fire.
Apr 26, 2013
3,727
46
United States
✟19,404.00
Faith
Mormon
Marital Status
Married
What man? This one (2 Thes. 2:3-4)?

3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

Who in history fits this complete description? And where is your evidence? It has been asked before in this thread and only the crickets answered...

Ha Ha. Thanks for proving my point. The Protestant church founders all said the Bishop of Rome was the man of sin or the antichrist. Therefore, the apostasy did come first. Yet now they want to say it didn't happen.
"dr"stevej keeps alleging that I am a complete idiot and know nothing because I don't call it a "reformation" when he is the one ignoring the scripture which says the apostasy would come before this man or is flat denying the history he allegedly holds a degree in.
Your knowledge of Protestant history is abysmal. Thanks for additional documentation. Oh, there was no documentation of these claims.

Explain how these things transpired in Wittenburg? In Geneva? In Basel? In England? In Holland?

Wanna start a formal debate thread on the Reformation? Or do you prefer to splash your revisionistic comments here hoping readers will buy it.

And as for your allegation, I have answered the charge to provide evidence and posted the quotes of the Protestant founders who said this, so I don't know how you can say with a straight face that only "crickets" answered, but here they are again.

Lutheran - Martin Luther (1483-1546) [founder of the Lutheran Church]
“nothing else than the kingdom of Babylon and of very Antichrist….For who is the man of sin and the son of perdition, but he who by his teaching and his ordinances increases the sin and perdition of souls in the church; while he yet sits in the church as if he were God? All these conditions have now for many ages been fulfilled by the papal tyranny.” Martin Luther, First Principles, pp. 196-197
There sits the man, of whom the apostle wrote [2 Thessalonians 2:3, 4], that will oppose and exalt himself above all that is called God. That man of sin to be revealed, the son of perdition . . . He suppresses the law of God and exalts his commandments above the commandments of God. (LeRoy Froom, The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, vol. 2, p. 281)
We here are of the conviction that the Papacy is the seat of the true and real antichrist. (Ibid., p. 256)

Philipp Melanchthon(1497-1560) [Associate of Martin Luther]
“Since it is certain that the pontiffs and the monks have forbidden marriage, it is most manifest, and true without any doubt, that the Roman Pontiff, with his whole order and kingdom, is very Antichrist. Likewise in 2 Thess. II, Paul clearly says that the man of sin will rule in the church exalting himself above the worship of God, etc." Translated from Melanchthon, Disputationes, No. 56, "De Matrimonio", in Opera (Corpus Reformatorum), vol. 12 col. 535:
It is most manifest, and true without any doubt, that the Roman pontiff, with his whole order and kingdom, is very antichrist. . . . Likewise, in 2 Thessalonians 2, Paul clearly says the man of sin will rule in the church by exalting himself above the worship of God. (LeRoy Froom, The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, vol. 2, pp. 296–9)

Methodist - John Wesley(1703-1791) [founder of the Methodist Church]
“He is in an emphatical sense, the Man of Sin, as he increases all manner of sin above measure. And he is, too, properly styled the Son of Perdition, as he has caused the death of numberless multitudes, both of his opposers and followers… He it is…that exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped… claiming the highest power, and highest honor… claiming the prerogatives which belong to God alone.” Albert Close, Antichrist and His Ten Kingdoms, London: Thynne and Co., 1917, p. 110.

Presbyterian - Westminster Confession, 25:6 - "vi. There is no other head of the Church but the Lord Jesus Christ; nor can the Pope of Rome, in any sense, be head thereof; but is that Antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalts himself, in the Church, against Christ and all that is called God."
John Calvin(1509-1564) [founder of the Presbyterian Church]: I deny him to be the vicar of Christ. . . . He is antichrist—I deny him to be head of the church. (John Calvin Tracts, vol. 1, pp. 219, 220)
"Institutes by John Calvin" - "We call the Roman Pontiff antichrist."

Reformed Church
John Knox (1505-1572) [Scottish Reformer] declared .. "As for your Roman Church, as it is now corrupted… I no more doubt but that it is the synagogue of Satan, and the head therof, called the Pope, to be the man of sin of whom the apostle speaketh.". "That tyranny which the pope himself has for so many ages exercised over the church, the very antichrist and son of perdition of whom Paul speaks." (The Zurich Letter, p.199)


Huldreich Zwingli (1484-1531) [great Swiss reformer quoted on Dec. 28, 1524]
“I know that in it works the might and power of the Devil, that is, of the Antichrist… the Papacy has to be abolished… But by no other means can it be more thoroughly routed than by the word of God (2 Thessalonians 2), because as soon as the world receives this in the right way, it will turn away from the Pope without compulsion.” Principle Works of Zwingli, Vol. 7, p. 135.

Thomas Cranmer (1489-1556) (Anglican)
"Whereof it followeth Rome to be the seat of antichrist, and the pope to be very antichrist himself. I could prove the same by many other scriptures, old writers, and strong reasons." (Referring to prophecies in Revelation and Daniel.)
Taken from Works by Cranmer, Vol. 1, pp. 6-7


John Wycliffe (1324-1384) [Completed the 1st English translation of the Bible]
“Why is it necessary in unbelief to look for another Antichrist? Hence in the seventh chapter of Daniel Antichrist is forcefully described by a horn arising in the time of the 4th kingdom. For it grew from [among] our powerful ones, more horrible, more cruel, and more greedy, because by reckoning the pagans and our Christians by name, a lesser [greater?] struggle for the temporals is not recorded in any preceding time. Therefore the ten horns are the whole of our temporal rulers, and the horn has arisen from the ten horns, having eyes and a mouth speaking great things against the Lofty One, and wearing out the saints of the Most High, and thinking that he is able to change times and laws.” (Daniel 7:8, 25 quoted) …"For so our clergy foresee the lord pope, as it is said of the eighth blaspheming little head." Translated from Wyclif's, De Veritate Sacrae Scripturae, vol. 3 pp. 262, 263 Learn more about John Wyclif

William Tyndale (1484-1536) [1st translator of the Bible from the Greek]
“The pope's forbidding matrimony, and to eat of meats created of God for man's use, which is devilish doctrine by Paul's prophecy,… are tokens good enough that he is the right antichrist, and his doctrine sprung of the devil.” 1 Timothy 4:1-3 Tyndale, An Answer to Sir Thomas More's Dialogue, in Works, vol. 3, p. 171 Visit http://www.williamtyndale.com for more information on William Tyndale.

Thanks for giving me the chance to show that I'm the one who actually knows what he is talking about.
Cheers
 
Upvote 0