1 Thess. 4:17 - The sole verse on the rapture in the entire Bible

Danoh

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Well, if it is Paul who has given us the Mystery of the Rapture, then you will not doubt be able to teach me your doctrine on the Rapture by referring back to Paul's writings alone.

So go ahead and do that. Teach me Paul's doctrine of the Rapture from the Epistles of Paul.

Now, passages may be a bit limited since Paul uses the term a total of one time.

But go ahead. Tell me what I missed.

Lol, actually that would be my doctrine, as I hold to Paul's writings alone [Romans thru Philemon] as to his twelve, direct "mystery" references, together with some three dozen or so more, indirectly.

What you are missing in your examination of this issue is what basis would there even be for a Pre-Trib Rapture, if there were such a promise - what would it be based on?

Solve for that, in contrast to focusing on a word or two, and then you can assert for or against and actually have a basis other than what you do or do not see in one word that can then be addressed.

Thus far, yours is similar to BAB2 [a Post-Tribber, if I have understood his assertions], continued attempts to prove what he attempts to by his erroneous reliance on a similar kind of error, as to his reading of Romans 11:26's "And so.."

Unfortunately, far too many Pre-Tribbers end up focused on their defense of this doctrine in a manner similar to your own...

"...be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you..." 1 Peter 3:15.
 
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n2thelight

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I agree with just about everything above.

The one thing we may not understand until it happens is that Christ brings in the New Heavens and the New Earth when He returns. Our exact location in this new dimension of space and time is not completely clear.

According to the parable of the wheat and tares, the wicked will be removed, but the wheat will remain to be gathered into the barn.

We will have real resurrected immortal bodies and may walk on the New Earth with Abraham and David. However, we may just have to wait to find out.

Thank you for your strong stand, based on God's Word.

Respectfully,

.


The new Heavens and earth won't happen until after the millennium...

The resurrection happens at death

Those in Christ return with Him,at the 7th trump....

Just like Christ,we arise after death,or changed at His return...

Earth is our home,we do not leave here,unless we die before Christ returns....
 
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ebedmelech

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When the 1599 Geneva Bible was published it was understood that the rapture occurred as the first part of Christ's Second Coming.


When the Geneva Bible was published they had no idea the Jews would ever be delivered back into their Land (1948.) This is why the Catholic Church claimed to be spiritual Israel.

Phil
The idea "the the Catholic Church claimed to be spiritual Israel" is a fallacy! That existed when Paul penned Romans 2, 4, 9, and 11.

Augustine taught this long before the Catholic Church. They basically "adopted" Augustine's works, which was one good thing they did, despite their other erroneous teachings.

Obviously you are not aware of Augustine's work "The City of God" or you would not attribute "spiritual Israel" to them. It (spiritual Israel), was believed long before the Catholic Church.

The Israel of God is quite easily understood as Matthew 2:15 makes the point:
15 He remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what had been spoken by the Lord through the prophet: “Out of Egypt I called My Son.”
 
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Rev20

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The idea "the the Catholic Church claimed to be spiritual Israel" is a fallacy! That existed when Paul penned Romans 2, 4, 9, and 11.

Augustine taught this long before the Catholic Church. They basically "adopted" Augustine's works, which was one good thing they did, despite their other erroneous teachings.

Obviously you are not aware of Augustine's work "The City of God" or you would not attribute "spiritual Israel" to them. It (spiritual Israel), was believed long before the Catholic Church.

The Israel of God is quite easily understood as Matthew 2:15 makes the point:
15 He remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what had been spoken by the Lord through the prophet: “Out of Egypt I called My Son.”

Some of the more prominent early Church fathers believed that the Church was spiritual Israel. These are a few quotes from them:

"But what is meant, says he, in the other passage: "This is God, and there shall none other be accounted of in comparison of Him?" That said he rightly. For in comparison of the Father who shall be accounted of? But he says: "This is our God; there shall none other be accounted of in comparison of Him. He hath found out all the way of knowledge, and hath given it unto Jacob His servant, and to Israel his beloved." He saith well. For who is Jacob His servant, Israel His beloved, but He of whom He crieth, saying, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased: hear ye Him?" Having received, then, all knowledge from the Father, the perfect Israel, the true Jacob, afterward did show Himself upon earth, and conversed with men. And who, again, is meant by Israel but a man who sees God? And there is no one who sees God except the Son alone, the perfect man who alone declares the will of the Father. For John also says, "No man hath seen God at any time; the only-begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared Him." And again: "He who came down from heaven testifieth what He hath heard and seen." This, then, is He to whom the Father hath given all knowledge, who did show Himself upon earth, and conversed with men." [Roberts & Donaldson, Hippolytus, Against the Heresy of Noetus, "Ante-Nicene Christian Library Vol 09." T & T Clark, 1869, Sect.5, pp.56-57]

"I continued: "Again in Isaiah, if you have ears to hear it, God, speaking of Christ in parable, calls Him Jacob and Israel. He speaks thus: "Jacob is my servant, I will uphold Him; Israel is mine elect, I will put my Spirit upon Him, and He shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not strive, nor cry, neither shall any one hear His voice in the street: a bruised reed He shall not break, and smoking flax He shall not quench; but He shall bring forth judgment to truth: He shall shine, and shall not be broken till He have set judgment on the earth. And in His name shall the Gentiles trust." . . . As therefore from the one man Jacob, who was surnamed Israel, all your nation has been called Jacob and Israel; so we from Christ, who begat us unto God, like Jacob, and Israel, and Judah, and Joseph, and David, are called and are the true sons of God, and keep the commandments of Christ." [Roberts & Donaldson, Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, "Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol 01: Apostolic Fathers." Charles Scribner's Sons, 1913, CXXIII, p.261]

"For the true spiritual Israel, and descendants of Judah, Jacob, Isaac, and Abraham (who in uncircumcision was approved of and blessed by God on account of his faith, and called the father of many nations), are we who have been led to God through this crucified Christ, as shall be demonstrated while we proceed." [Roberts & Donaldson, Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, "Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol 01: Apostolic Fathers." Charles Scribner's Sons, 1913, Chap.CXXIII, p.261]

"Then is it Jacob the patriarch in whom the Gentiles and yourselves shall trust? or is it not Christ? As, therefore, Christ is the Israel and the Jacob, even so we, who have been quarried out from the bowels of Christ, are the true Israelitic race." [Roberts & Donaldson, Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, "Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol 01: Apostolic Fathers." Charles Scribner's Sons, 1913, CXXXV, p.267]

"Thus, then, they who are of faith shall be blessed with faithful Abraham, and these are the children of Abraham. Now God made promise of the earth to Abraham and his seed; yet neither Abraham nor his seed, that is, those who are justified by faith, do now receive any inheritance in it; but they shall receive it at the resurrection of the just. For God is true and faithful; and on this account He said, 'Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.'" [Roberts & Donaldson, Irenaeus, Against Heresies, "Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol 01: Apostolic Fathers." Charles Scribner's Sons, 1913, Book V.32.2, p.561-62]

"Thus did [Abraham] await patiently the promise of God, and was unwilling to appear to receive from men, what God had promised to give him, when He said again to him as follows: "I will give this land to thy seed, from the river of Egypt even unto the great river Euphrates." If, then, God promised him the inheritance of the land, yet he did not receive it during all the time of his sojourn there, it must be, that together with his seed, that is, those who fear God and believe in Him, he shall receive it at the resurrection of the just. For his seed is the church, which receives the adoption to God through the Lord, as John the Baptist said: "For God is able from the stones to raise up children to Abraham."" [Roberts & Donaldson, Irenaeus, Against Heresies, "Ante-Nicene Christian Library Vol 09." T & T Clark, 1869, Book V.32.2, p.142]

"And again the same speaks thus: "These things, saith the Lord, I will gather Israel from all nations whither they have been driven, and I shall be sanctified in them in the sight of the sons of the nations: and they shall dwell in their own land, which I gave to my servant Jacob. And they shall dwell in it in peace; and they shall build houses, and plant vineyards, and dwell in hope, when I shall cause judgment to fall among all who have dishonoured them, among those who encircle them round about; and they shall know that I am the Lord their God, and the God of their fathers." Now I have shown a short time ago that the church is the seed of Abraham; and for this reason, that we may know that He who in the New Testament "raises up from the stones children unto Abraham," is He who will gather, according to the Old Testament, those that shall be saved from all the nations, Jeremiah says: "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that they shall no more say, The Lord liveth, who led the children of Israel from the north, and from every region whither they had been driven; He will restore them to their own land which He gave to their fathers." [Roberts & Donaldson, Irenaeus, Against Heresies, "Ante-Nicene Christian Library Vol 09." T & T Clark, 1869, Book V.34.1, p.148]

"For we are Israelites, who are convinced not by signs, but by hearing. Wherefore it is said, “Rejoice, O barren, that barest not; break forth and cry, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than of her who hath an husband.” “Thou hast lived for the fence of the people, thy children were blessed in the tents of their fathers.” And if the same mansions are promised by prophecy to us and to the patriarchs, the God of both the covenants is shown to be one. Accordingly it is added more clearly, “Thou hast inherited the covenant of Israel,” speaking to those called from among the nations, that were once barren, being formerly destitute of this husband, who is the Word,—desolate formerly,—of the bridegroom." [Roberts & Donaldson, Clement of Alexandria, Miscellanies, "Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol 02: Fathers of the 2nd Century." Charles Scribner's Sons, 1913, Gal 6:15-16, p.47]

:)
 
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The word rapture does appear zero times in the first English bible.
William Tyndale wrote the first one. Latin Vulgate is corrupt, so do not use that.

Yes so rapture has replaced the word reap.

And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

If your goign to deny the return of Christ you are greatly mistaken! That wonderful day is described manyt imes in the old testament and new!

Joel 2:31King James Version (KJV)
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

Acts 2:20King James Version (KJV)
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

Mat 24
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.



Theres the reaping, darkend sun and blood moon.
The end of times shall bel ike the times of NOAH, NOW....

Yes soon the Lord Jesus will return and hence Gods wrath shall begin...
 
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Rev20

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The word rapture does appear zero times in the first English bible.
William Tyndale wrote the first one. Latin Vulgate is corrupt, so do not use that.

Yes so rapture has replaced the word reap.

And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

If your goign to deny the return of Christ you are greatly mistaken! That wonderful day is described manyt imes in the old testament and new!

Joel 2:31King James Version (KJV)
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

Acts 2:20King James Version (KJV)
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

Mat 24
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.



Theres the reaping, darkend sun and blood moon.
The end of times shall bel ike the times of NOAH, NOW....

Yes soon the Lord Jesus will return and hence Gods wrath shall begin...

All of those passages you quoted were fulfilled in the first century.

:)
 
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All of those passages you quoted were fulfilled in the first century.

:)

Are you telling me God has poured his wrath out?

Are you trying to say the Son of Man Jesus has come like lightening in the skie?

This has not happened, Jesus is gathering his elect still.
 
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101

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Are you telling me God has poured his wrath out?

Are you trying to say the Son of Man Jesus has come like lightening in the skie?

This has not happened, Jesus is gathering his elect still.

To that, I can say 'Amen'.

Jesus is still gathering his elect from the four winds.

You've got that much right.
 
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I'm still trying to figure out how the word 'reap' has been replaced by the word 'rapture'.

But don't mind me. I'm just a silent observer and student.

Rapture is not a word used in the bible at all.
Reap and raptre are te same.
Both a gathering.

I would say reap would have to be the word thye use rapture on.
It does not matter to much...

Rapture is just a cool sounding word that is used in the false left behind move.
 
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101

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Rapture is not a word used in the bible at all.
Reap and raptre are te same.
Both a gathering.

I would say reap would have to be the word thye use rapture on.
It does not matter to much...

Rapture is just a cool sounding word that is used in the false left behind move.

I don't mind the word 'rapture'. I mind how it is abused by the cult of Darby to make Paul mean things by it that he never wrote or even dreamed of.

rapture (n.) c.1600, "act of carrying off," from Middle French rapture, from Medieval Latin raptura

If a person states that they believe in the rapture of the Church, I am in complete agreement with them. I just don't have the same connotations of 'rapture' that Dispensationalists do. I believe in the rapture of all the resurrected in Christ on the Last Day, at the Last Trump.
 
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Rev20

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Are you telling me God has poured his wrath out?

Yes, God poured out his wrath on Jerusalem in the first century to avenge the murder of his prophets, apostles and his Son.
.

Are you trying to say the Son of Man Jesus has come like lightening in the skie?

That cannot be found anywhere in the Bible, that I am aware of. What novel did you read that in?
.

This has not happened, Jesus is gathering his elect still.

Jesus gathered his elect in the first century, exactly when he said he would (during his generation.)

:)
 
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n2thelight

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Yes, God poured out his wrath on Jerusalem in the first century to avenge the murder of his prophets, apostles and his Son.
.



That cannot be found anywhere in the Bible, that I am aware of. What novel did you read that in?
.



Jesus gathered his elect in the first century, exactly when he said he would (during his generation.)

:)


And we Christians living now are waiting for what exactly?

Also how did He get out of Heaven,per the below verse

Acts 3:21King James Version (KJV)

21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

 
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I don't mind the word 'rapture'. I mind how it is abused by the cult of Darby to make Paul mean things by it that he never wrote or even dreamed of.

rapture (n.) c.1600, "act of carrying off," from Middle French rapture, from Medieval Latin raptura

If a person states that they believe in the rapture of the Church, I am in complete agreement with them. I just don't have the same connotations of 'rapture' that Dispensationalists do. I believe in the rapture of all the resurrected in Christ on the Last Day, at the Last Trump.

I was raised in that cult Darby! Well not exclusive brethren but my minister is X eclusive.

He useed the Darby Bible and I can clarify God can save a man through that bible.
I can clarify that the darby bble is also twisted.
Tis why I left the whole thing.

Rapture aint even used in KJV...

It is a word changed like communion,the cult used communion, over pass over.

Do you mean of the sixth seal?

The trumps are God wrath...
Or do you think it possible the Saints endure the trumps?

Here sixth seal rev 6

And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

rev 8
And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

To me the trumps come after the rapture of the Saints...
 
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BABerean2

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Lol, actually that would be my doctrine, as I hold to Paul's writings alone [Romans thru Philemon] as to his twelve, direct "mystery" references, together with some three dozen or so more, indirectly.

What you are missing in your examination of this issue is what basis would there even be for a Pre-Trib Rapture, if there were such a promise - what would it be based on?

Solve for that, in contrast to focusing on a word or two, and then you can assert for or against and actually have a basis other than what you do or do not see in one word that can then be addressed.

Thus far, yours is similar to BAB2 [a Post-Tribber, if I have understood his assertions], continued attempts to prove what he attempts to by his erroneous reliance on a similar kind of error, as to his reading of Romans 11:26's "And so.."

Unfortunately, far too many Pre-Tribbers end up focused on their defense of this doctrine in a manner similar to your own...

"...be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you..." 1 Peter 3:15.

If you are going to tell a story, at least get the facts straight.

You seem to be confused. What did Paul say based on the Greek?




Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.




Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:


G3779
οὕτω
houtō
hoo'-to
Or, before a vowel, οὕτως houtōs hoo'-toce.
From G3778; in this way (referring to what precedes or follows): - after that, after (in) this manner, as, even (so), for all that, like (-wise), no more, on this fashion (-wise), so (in like manner), thus, what.


Your doctrine only works by changing "so" which is an adverb of manner into "then" which is an adverb of time.

Your buddy Stam printed it that way in his book "Things That Differ".

In this case, the "thing that differs" is Stam's corruption of the text.

You and yours continue down the same wrong path even though you have been shown you are headed the wrong way by Paul's words in the Greek.



.
 
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PhillipLaSpino

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Obviously there are some of you who because the following verse concerning the catching away of the church is found but one time in scripture, claim that it hold no water; therefore we should do one of three things, ignore it, pretend it doesn't exist, or tear it out of our Bible. One problems is, you ignore the simplicity of the text.

I am going to paraphrase the verse under discussion,

"For the Lord (Jesus) himself shall descend from heaven (the 3ed heaven to the 2ed or 3ed heaven) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel (come up hither) and with the trumpet of God (the Father) and the dead in Christ (believers who died in Christ) shall rise (be resurrected with an incorruptible body) first;"

Then (a word of time) we (believers) which are alive and remain shall (absolute) be caught up (taken up, raptured, call it what you will) together with them (those who where resurrected) in the clouds = (clouds meaning the glory of God) to meet the Lord (be with Him) in the air (a location) and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

BUT; for those who do not believe, they will be crying, "Peace and safety; then sudden destruction (7 years of tribulation) shall come upon them."

There is no mention here of the body of Christ after it is raptured returning to this earth, or running into the wilderness or any of that nonsense.

You can have the last word.

Phil LaSpino
 
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BABerean2

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Obviously there are some of you who because the following verse concerning the catching away of the church is found but one time in scripture, claim that it hold no water; therefore we should do one of three things, ignore it, pretend it doesn't exist, or tear it out of our Bible. One problems is, you ignore the simplicity of the text.

I am going to paraphrase the verse under discussion,

"For the Lord (Jesus) himself shall descend from heaven (the 3ed heaven to the 2ed or 3ed heaven) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel (come up hither) and with the trumpet of God (the Father) and the dead in Christ (believers who died in Christ) shall rise (be resurrected with an incorruptible body) first;"

Then (a word of time) we (believers) which are alive and remain shall (absolute) be caught up (taken up, raptured, call it what you will) together with them (those who where resurrected) in the clouds = (clouds meaning the glory of God) to meet the Lord (be with Him) in the air (a location) and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

BUT; for those who do not believe, they will be crying, "Peace and safety; then sudden destruction (7 years of tribulation) shall come upon them."

There is no mention here of the body of Christ after it is raptured returning to this earth, or running into the wilderness or any of that nonsense.

You can have the last word.

Phil LaSpino

You are correct about there not being anything about those in Christ returning to earth in 1st Thess chapter 4.

However, there is nothing about those in-Christ going to heaven for a period of 7 years either.

Chapter 5 connects the event to "The Day of the Lord".

The Day of the Lord is also found in 2nd Peter chapter 3, which is a 2nd Coming passage.



Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.


During ancient times a trumpet would be blown when the king was seen returning to the city. Many times his loyal subjects would rush out to meet him and accompany him back home. The term used to describe this event is the Greek word "Parousia".

It is the same word used to describe Christ's return.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

G3952
παρουσία
parousia
par-oo-see'-ah
From the present participle of G3918; a being near, that is, advent (often, return; specifically of Christ to punish Jerusalem, or finally the wicked); (by implication) physical aspect: - coming, presence.


2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
2Pe 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.



.
 
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