The carnality of offense

probinson · Dec 28, 2014

Not a bad thought, except that's not how you spell offense. Sorry. I'm a bit of a grammar nazi.

Alithis · Dec 28, 2014

probinson said:
Not a bad thought, except that's not how you spell offense. Sorry. I'm a bit of a grammar nazi.

i keep spelling it both ways .. (old habit)

ByTheSpirit · Dec 28, 2014

I am not really sure if the Sahari Desert is with one s or two...

I tell my wife at times I want an ice cream dessert/desert depending on how I spell it.

I may be unknowingly asking her for a dry, arid, wasteland of ice cream.... That may not be such a bad thing. Or then again, maybe it is

Alithis · Dec 28, 2014

ByTheSpirit said:
I am not really sure if the Sahari Desert is with one s or two...

I tell my wife at times I want an ice cream dessert/desert depending on how I spell it.

I may be unknowingly asking her for a dry, arid, wasteland of ice cream.... That may not be such a bad thing. Or then again, maybe it is

..as long as she does not take a fence at it ^_^

Norah63 · Dec 28, 2014

Sorry, my bad. Thanks for the correction.
Spelling is my weak spot.

ByTheSpirit · Dec 28, 2014

michaelmynameIs said:
..as long as she does not take a fence at it

Alithis · Dec 28, 2014

Norah63 said:
Sorry, my bad. Thanks for the correction.
Spelling is my weak spot.

yup .. mine also

probinson · Dec 29, 2014

Norah63 said:
Sorry, my bad. Thanks for the correction.
Spelling is my weak spot.

Misspelling aside

, you do have a valid point. Offense certainly does erect a fence between us and the ones we take offense to. We are no longer able to reach them because we put up a wall in an attempt to protect ourselves. If Christians are constantly running around offended by everything, they will be unable to present the good news of the Gospel to those people because of the fences they've built.

Svt4Him · Dec 30, 2014

Have you ever dealt with a betrayal so deep you thought your life could end? If so, you can't discredit emotions, as emotions are a human trait given by God.

This is where I think the Church misses it. I would suggest that if your emotions don't line up, don't ignore them, give them over to God. The idea that forgiveness is a chosen act is based on what? It's like an old Don Fransisco song that says love is not a feeling it's an act of the will. Although it is true love can be an act, it doesn't negate the fact that it is also sometimes a feeling. I think it's important to acknowledge that emotions play a part in forgiveness, and there really are times where the prayer should be "help me to want to forgive" instead of 'I forgive because I must'.

michaelmynameIs said:
yes (albeit they were saved by faith in that covenant because they had faith in Gods word ,just as we do )
but while i agree on making allowance for time in respect to dealing with a wave of emotions ,i think i cant agree that emotions can be allowed to dictate when we forgive .
because forgiveness is not an emotion it is a chosen act of the will .
to refuse to forgive is the opposite to walking in the Holy Ghost and thus fully a carnal (motivated by all the attributes of the flesh in self seeking/serving )act.
it may take time for one to "feel" the results of forgiveness but those results will never transpire until forgiveness is begun .
it would be like waiting for a tomato plant to give you tomatoes ,when you haven't even planted the seed in the ground .

so i consider that waiting until my emotions are appeased is simply pandering to "self" in self importance and self pity. putting how ,"I" feel, over and above the eternal good of all others .. and that is not Godly love in the spirit at work .. that is simply flesh (carnal).

forgiveness is the chosen eternal relinquishment of our "rights" to see justice metted out for wrongs done even when we feel nothing of the sort .it is undeserved mercy ..just as such grace was shown us in Christ ,so we MUST display such grace to others ALWAYS .without exception without excuse .

Alithis · Dec 30, 2014

i can see what your saying .. but emotions are not to govern us .we govern them .
i feel the Lord Jesus displayed this at Gethsemane at his betrayal at his trial and on the cross .he overcame them all for us .

an emotional faith is a risky business because if we base c hoice of action on emotion then we will know times when it utterly fails us in choosing the right thing .. and can lead to unrighteousness.
we may need time to deal with the shock of a situation .. but forgiveness is an act of faith .. not of feeling ..it is also not always pleasant in an immediate situation to obey God ..but we learn by experience that once we do we will know his joy ..So we trust HIM that even though all our "feelings "disagree ..if we choose to do the righteous thing he will work it together for good regardless of how we presently feel emotionally speaking.
i do not believe any one laid down their life for the lord because it emotionally felt good at the time ... and forgiveness is just another part of not loving ones own life .. mercy rejoices over justice ..mercy is shown when one has the right to dish out justice and chooses not to .

there are just too many overlooked words in the new testament which tell me faith is not am emotional stance . words like long suffering ,patience ,endurance ,
and

... And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:
Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions.
Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.
Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
(Of whom the world was not worthy

they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.-

these all acted in faith being obedient by faith .. i am utterly convinced they did not endure such things based on how they felt "emotionally".
and neither should we .. we forgive not because we feel to but because we do not "feel to but know its the right thing to do any way ..it is obedience and we are the children of obedience and bring forth fruits of obedience .
later ..emotions will tow the line and realign themselves to truth .. of that i am also convinced because that is what has always happened when i forgave regardless of how i feel.

Norah63 · Dec 30, 2014

Yes, I hear both sides of this. Forgiveness is a choice when it comes to our actions.
Emotions can sting and burn our ego. 'Feels' like rejection, which makes us 'feel' unworthy.
So we cannot deny the emotions, just that they dont control our actions. Because faith is an act.
The waiting time between actions and emotions getting togeather, that's the maturing process going on. Growing pains my mother used to say.

Norah63 · Jan 8, 2015

Did the son of Ham get offended? He didn't bring it on himself, yet because Ham was blessed that couldn't be undone.
Still learning

ToBeBlessed · Jan 8, 2015

michaelmynameIs said:
thats the same question i had to ask myself ..and i agree ,being hurt is not wrong but the temptation to then take offence at the hurt becomes rather evident ..
later that day i responded kindly, talked to the lord about it gave it to him and let it go ...(forgave)
if i had taken offence and responded otherwise ,i doubt it would have resulted in what happened -they shuffled their plans and are now attending and all is well

i believe our first response should be to act -in the spirit , forgive as fast as we can .. the flesh and emotions may (and Do)take time to catch up .. but we are not to walk in the flesh ....

I disagree with the premise that you did not take offense.

You clearly stated that you were offended by this. You were so offended that you knew you could not reply back to his text over worry that you might not handle the situation as Christ would have you. So you were clearly offended. You were clearly hurt and were thinking of others in your family that would also be hurt by the decision.

After you thought about the offence, you made a decision to give that offended feeling over to the Lord.

IMHO, you gave your hurt and offended feelings to the Lord and forgave the person and let go of the situation, giving it to God. however, both offense and hurt did still occur.

ToBeBlessed · Jan 8, 2015

Offence is actually a feeling, not a decision.

of·fend
əˈfend/
verb
verb: offend; 3rd person present: offends; past tense: offended; past participle: offended; gerund or present participle: offending
1.
cause to feel upset, annoyed, or resentful.

Hurt is also a feeling.

Then we choose what to do with those feelings once we have them.

Alithis · Jan 8, 2015

ToBeBlessed said:
I disagree with the premise that you did not take offense.

You clearly stated that you were offended by this. You were so offended that you knew you could not reply back to his text over worry that you might not handle the situation as Christ would have you. So you were clearly offended. You were clearly hurt and were thinking of others in your family that would also be hurt by the decision.

After you thought about the offence, you made a decision to give that offended feeling over to the Lord.

IMHO, you gave your hurt and offended feelings to the Lord and forgave the person and let go of the situation, giving it to God. however, both offense and hurt did still occur.

recognizing I am offended and acting on it in love rather then vengance are two different things.

to Take offense -in my understanding is not to only feel offended but to then gather it up unto your self and nurture it ..to coddle your self in that weirdly delightful self pity ..where we become the all important center and its all about ME ME ME , whispering to your self and others of how harmed you are and building upon it ..watering it in the dark shading it from the glare of the sun ..tending to its selfish whims until it grows up and bears fruit with seeds of bitterness and thereby defiles many ... all because we took it up to do so ...
feeling offended and ,i guess the modern terminology would be " owning it " ,are two very different things .

In truth ..i prayed to the lord in regard to the scenario i spoke of .. and i said .. (the lord is my witness - ) lord you know that this hurt me ..i hide nothing from you, lord it makes me feel sad and angry at the same time ..but lord "I forgive him and i pray you will bless him and work on him your perfect will in Jesus ..."

so i acknowledge the offence existed but i did not take it up i did the opposite .. i handed it over ..(just as you noted )i relinquished it into the hands of God ..

i believe when we do so the lord is able to begin dealing with that persons heart on that issue .. and until we do so he does not deal with their heart ,but our only .
what i mean by that is .. it is me that was offended .. God was not offended because it was not God to whom the offense was done and as long as I stand as the judge of that offense ,as it is my just right to do so .God will do nothing . but once i forgive .once i relinquish "my right" to have justice .. via gracious forgiveness (undeserved forgiveness ) then that person stands responsible before god for their actions .

some folk's say that we do not have to forgive unless a person repents to us .. apologizes ... i can see the technicality of that ..however LOVE GOES FURTHER ... love can never desire eternal death for another and love wil do anything it can within the realms of righteousness to save ALL from eternal death ..so love does not hold a record of wrongs ..it lets them go .

so it is love to forgive ..
Also we are forgiven by God to the extent that we are forgiving of others ..this is made extremely clear by the word of the Lord Jesus .. "if you do not forgive men their sins ,neither will your father in heaven forgive you "

in short to take up and hold and nurture an offense .. is the sin of UNforgiveness and it is IMO the most heinous of all sins , it is a sin which enrages God ..and justly so after al he has done for us in Christ Jesus ... while we were dead in sin .. not after we repented .

Norah63 · Jan 9, 2015

Most helpful and a wonderful explaination of taking offense Michael.

probinson · Jan 9, 2015

michaelmynameIs said:
Also we are forgiven by God to the extent that we are forgiving of others ..this is made extremely clear by the word of the Lord Jesus .. "if you do not forgive men their sins ,neither will your father in heaven forgive you "

in short to take up and hold and nurture an offense .. is the sin of UNforgiveness and it is IMO the most heinous of all sins , it is a sin which enrages God ..and justly so after al he has done for us in Christ Jesus ... while we were dead in sin .. not after we repented .

Excellent point.

Here is something I wrote about 5 years ago entitled "Forgiveness; a debt we could never repay on our own".

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

In Matthew 18, Jesus told the following parable concerning forgiveness;

Matthew 18:23-35 (AMP)
Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a human king who wished to settle accounts with his attendants. When he began the accounting, one was brought to him who owed him 10,000 talents [probably about $10,000,000], And because he could not pay, his master ordered him to be sold, with his wife and his children and everything that he possessed, and payment to be made. So the attendant fell on his knees, begging him, Have patience with me and I will pay you everything. And his master's heart was moved with compassion, and he released him and forgave him [cancelling] the debt. But that same attendant, as he went out, found one of his fellow attendants who owed him a hundred denarii [about twenty dollars]; and he caught him by the throat and said, Pay what you owe! So his fellow attendant fell down and begged him earnestly, Give me time, and I will pay you all! But he was unwilling, and he went out and had him put in prison till he should pay the debt. When his fellow attendants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed, and they went and told everything that had taken place to their master. Then his master called him and said to him, You contemptible and wicked attendant! I forgave and cancelled all that [great] debt of yours because you begged me to. And should you not have had pity and mercy on your fellow attendant, as I had pity and mercy on you? And in wrath his master turned him over to the torturers (the jailers), till he should pay all that he owed. So also My heavenly Father will deal with every one of you if you do not freely forgive your brother from your heart his offenses.

I've used the Amplified Bible, because it provides approximate US dollar amounts for the debt, and I think that it's imperative to understand the significance of this parable.

So here's a guy that owes about $10,000,000 who could not pay the debt. But this guy begged his master to be merciful, and his master was moved with compassion, and CANCELED his entire debt. Now as this guy is leaving, just having had a $10,000,000 debt canceled, he runs across another guy that owes him $20. Unbelievably, he grabs this guy by the throat and demands payment immediately. This attendant did the exact same thing, begging him to give him time to pay the debt, but the guy who had the huge debt canceled didn't really care, and had the guy that owed him $20 thrown in prison.

Now, just stop for a minute and think for a minute about every sin you've ever committed, every wrong thought you've had, every guy you've flipped off in rush hour traffic, every time you've been rude to your spouse, every time you've kicked your dog, every time you've disrespected your brothers and sisters in Christ, every time you've lost your temper, every immoral act you've committed, everything you've ever done wrong....

Do you see it? Do you see the insurmountable mountain of debt that you could never pay on your own?

*** CANCELED ***

That's right. All of those things are erased. As far as the east is from the west, God remembers them no more.

Now, consider any unforgiveness in your life. Think about that offense you're holding onto. Does it compare? Do you see the $20 offense you're demanding retribution for? Do you see how it pales in comparison to the $10,000,000 debt that Jesus Christ has canceled on your behalf?

Unforgiveness holds us captive. Note that when the attendant refused to forgive the small debt, His master had him thrown in prison, and held him accountable for a debt that he could never pay on his own. Also note that his refusal to forgive the debt resulted in him being tormented.

This is what we do when we hold onto any unforgiveness. There simply is no comparison in what we have been forgiven, and whatever it is that we are demanding forgiveness for. It's like we're the crazy attendant, demanding our $20, when we just had a $10,000,000 debt canceled.

I encourage you, if you have unforgiveness in your life, let it go and forgive. Harboring unforgiveness only holds you captive, torments you, and makes you accountable for a debt you can never repay. But the good news is, as soon as you offer the same forgiveness that has been given to you, you are set free. It means you're going to have to let go of your right to recover that $20, but in return, you'll be forgiven a far greater debt, and set free from torment. Sounds like a good deal to me!

Tenebrae · Jan 10, 2015

probinson said:
In a very weird and unexplainable way, it actually helps us grow in the grace of God when we offer forgiveness to someone who hasn't offered an apology. But even here, we must be careful that our motives are pure. If we offer forgiveness just to be seen by others, then our motives are not pure either. Likewise, offering an apology in an attempt to evoke an apology is not of pure motive.

I'm sorry for all you've had to go through, but I believe that God has used your circumstances to teach you the power of not taking offense, and the fruit of it is good indeed!

I had a practical lesson in this last weekend and this one.

I was in with a patient and the cleaner came in. I asked them to wait for a couple of minutes as I needed to finish up with that patient. After telling me that she couldnt wait for two minutes she proceeded to argue with me for five minutes and then spend at least 10 minutes bagging me to her colleague.

I decided to let it go, despite the fact that I could have had this lady in alot of trouble for her behavior. I did apologise because I know that I can be rather hard nosed. My resolve was tested when I learnt this lady was telling porkies. A colleague of her came up to me and asked me about what was said. Unconventional I know, however was able to manage to feed back through this colleage and friend to be careful how one acts in the work place because it can start a whole bunch of trouble and to please be careful. Working on the idea that God gave me the ultimate second chance so who am I to not at least offer one second chance in this situation

Today this lady who had been studiously ignoring me was polite and communicative.

It would have been really easy to elevate this to senior management. Today made swallowing that offense very worth while if it can be used to help someone else.

Tenebrae · Jan 10, 2015

Norah63 · Feb 9, 2015

Bumped for further discussion.

The carnality of offense

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