Was it all worth it?

Albion

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ISecondly, the Church was in a state of reform. Unfortunately, humans are impatient, and once they got the feeling that they could demand things of the Church, that impatience got the better of them.

I'd be interested in having you expand on that idea, considering that everyone else sees the Late Middle Ages, in northern Europe in particular, as a period of confusion, despair, and decline in church affairs as well as in almost every other aspect of life. The run of popes was the worst in all history, rebellion was in the air everywhere, many people had abandoned church-going altogether, it was a period renowned for the rise of witchcraft and cultism, and many Medieval institutions were in freefall.
 
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Root of Jesse

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To get away from idolatry, indulgences, Bibles only in Latin, celebate priests, heretical forms of hierarchy......?

:cool:

None of which have been 'gotten away from'...people still worship idols, whether money, rock or sports stars, or money; we still have indulgences (note: indulgences never were and never could be sold), we still have the Bible in Latin, and at the time, it was being made available in other languages-the printing press helped move that forward, not the reformation; we still have celibate priests, and we still have hierarchy, though it was never heretical (ask the Jews)...
 
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Root of Jesse

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I'd be interested in having you expand on that idea, considering that everyone else sees the Late Middle Ages, in northern Europe in particular, as a period of confusion, despair, and decline in church affairs as well as in almost every other aspect of life. The run of popes was the worst in all history, rebellion was in the air everywhere, many people had abandoned church-going altogether, it was a period renowned for the rise of witchcraft and cultism, and many Medieval institutions were in freefall.

Well, where, do you suppose, most of that came from??? Witchcraft, cultism, confusion, despair, and the decline of the Church in that time can be directly accounted to the various invaders who burned and slaughtered their way through northern Europe into southern Europe.
Let's not forget the plagues, which decimated Europe, and put the Church in a position of fewer good priests. Just like the 1960's and 70's, they started taking any available body, just about, and from their, your hierarchy became more interested in their position than in their pastoral calling.

The Catholic Church was the one area of constancy. But there were many reforms taking place. That doesn't mean the Church is or was perfect. That's why it needs and needed reform.
 
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Root of Jesse

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I was thinking more of praying to saints and mary (is God deaf?) or little pieces of bread when Jesus has 3 billion "second comings" every day....
You mean intercessory prayer is wrong? And remembering the sacrifice of Christ is wrong?
It might take that ;)



But not necessary, considering a bishop is to be husband to one wife and if he cannot keep his family in check is no good for being a bishop...
I don't see a command that bishops be married. It says that a bishop should not be promiscuous, and responsible. But not commanded to marry...
The bloke in the white dress isn't ;)
Someone cross-dressing? I'd agree with you. But there's no hierarchy doing that, that I'm aware of...
And I forgot to mention "wordy prayers" on rosaries ;)[/QUOTE]

Why is Scripture too 'wordy'? We pray as Jesus taught, we pray intercessory prayer asking Mary's help with her son, we pray the Doxology, and we pray the Apostles Creed. Any of those wrong to pray? I mean they're all Scriptural...
 
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Root of Jesse

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I am aware of that, yes. I don't recall though where it mentions that God is hard of hearing (and so needs to be persuaded by 'saints') or how intercession is a democracy based on how many you get to pray on "your side"....

Well, we pray the Rosary, those of us who do (not a requirement), to contemplate the major events in Christ's life, which are the Gospels.

Regarding needing to be persuaded, he doesn't need to be. But he allows it. But that's not in YOUR bible...well, yes it is, in Revelation.
 
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Inkfingers

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You mean intercessory prayer is wrong? And remembering the sacrifice of Christ is wrong?

Praying to a saint to ask them to pray for you implies that God is not already aware of your prayers or somehow is rather doddery or uncaring and needs prompting occasionally....

And claiming that Jesus has 3 billion second comings a day in biscuit-form is not simply "remembering the sacrifice", is it.

I don't see a command that bishops be married.
Nor do you see one requiring they be celebate...

Why is Scripture too 'wordy'? We pray as Jesus taught, we pray intercessory prayer asking Mary's help with her son, we pray the Doxology, and we pray the Apostles Creed. Any of those wrong to pray? I mean they're all Scriptural...
I mentioned the rosary, and include in that the repeating of prayers such as multiple "our fathers" and "hail marys", which goes against "But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking" (Matt 6:7)
 
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Albion

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None of which have been 'gotten away from'...people still worship idols, whether money, rock or sports stars, or money; we still have indulgences (note: indulgences never were and never could be sold), we still have the Bible in Latin, and at the time, it was being made available in other languages-the printing press helped move that forward, not the reformation; we still have celibate priests, and we still have hierarchy, though it was never heretical (ask the Jews)...

Just because indulgences still exist, Bible can be obtained in Latin if you look hard enough, and we may make de facto idols out of money or fame as opposed to literal idol worship, doesn't mean that the Reformation wasn't "worth it."

The OP predictably chose only to itemize developements that might be considered unfortunate while avoiding mention of all the successes. All we need to do in order to appreciate that is to remember all the Protestant points of emphasis associated with the Reformation which the Roman Catholic Church has since adopted. It took them long enough, to come around, and the Vatican likes to pretend that it thought of them all on its own :D ...

But still, we today have these:
...........................................................................................................................................

The Mass/Liturgy in the language of the people, the language understood by the people.

The sermon in the language of the people rather than in Latin.

The "action," i.e. the critical parts of the Mass, being viewable by the people and heard by the people.

Communion in both kinds (bread and wine), as instituted by Christ at the Last Supper.

The Communion elements placed in the hands of the communicants.

Women allowed as readers, Eucharistic ministers, and acolytes, if not priests.

Participation of the congregation in the service (in various ways).

Parishioners given some role to play in the administration of the parish.

Parish education.

Indulgences no longer sold.

Weekly confession not required before communing.

The Bible made available to ordinary Christians and Bible study groups encouraged.

......................................................................................................................................................


All of that and more today's Catholics owe to the Protestant Reformation.
 
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Inkfingers

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The Bible made available to ordinary Christians and Bible study groups encouraged.

Well, if you can call it English to translate "epiousios artos" in the Lord's Prayer as "supersubstantiated bread" rather than as "daily bread" then yes you might say that. ;)
 
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Albion

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Well, if you can call it English to translate "epiousios artos" in the Lord's Prayer as "supersubstantiated bread" rather than as "daily bread" then yes you might say that. ;)

Might say what? That the Bible is allowed to ordinary Catholics? Sure, it is. And not only is having ANY Bible translation permitted to you, but the particular one you select is your choice.

Oh yes, and one of the most popular of Catholic translations and one that is recommended by the Vatican, The New American Bible, translates it as "daily bread. :)
 
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Root of Jesse

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Praying to a saint to ask them to pray for you implies that God is not already aware of your prayers or somehow is rather doddery or uncaring and needs prompting occasionally....
It does no such thing. It does show that God allows us to participate in our salvation.
And claiming that Jesus has 3 billion second comings a day in biscuit-form is not simply "remembering the sacrifice", is it.
Well, this is a mischaracterization of what we do. We're still waiting for His second coming. What you're talking about is a participation in his Passion, Death and Resurrection.
Nor do you see one requiring they be celebate...
Celibacy is a discipline, not a requirement. One that could be changed.
I mentioned the rosary, and include in that the repeating of prayers such as multiple "our fathers" and "hail marys", which goes against "But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking" (Matt 6:7)

Who says repeating the Our Father is vain? This was the only prayer Jesus commanded us to pray. Heathens don't pray "Our Father" or "Hail Mary", so I'm sure Jesus wasn't talking about Christians who do.
 
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Root of Jesse

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Just because indulgences still exist, Bible can be obtained in Latin if you look hard enough, and we may make de facto idols out of money or fame as opposed to literal idol worship, doesn't mean that the Reformation wasn't "worth it."

The OP predictably chose only to itemize developements that might be considered unfortunate while avoiding mention of all the successes. All we need to do in order to appreciate that is to remember all the Protestant points of emphasis associated with the Reformation which the Roman Catholic Church has since adopted. It took them long enough, to come around, and the Vatican likes to pretend that it thought of them all on its own :D ...

But still, we today have these:
...........................................................................................................................................

The Mass/Liturgy in the language of the people, the language understood by the people.

The sermon in the language of the people rather than in Latin.

The "action," i.e. the critical parts of the Mass, being viewable by the people and heard by the people.

Communion in both kinds (bread and wine), as instituted by Christ at the Last Supper.

The Communion elements placed in the hands of the communicants.

Women allowed as readers, Eucharistic ministers, and acolytes, if not priests.

Participation of the congregation in the service (in various ways).

Parishioners given some role to play in the administration of the parish.

Parish education.

Indulgences no longer sold.

Weekly confession not required before communing.

The Bible made available to ordinary Christians and Bible study groups encouraged.

......................................................................................................................................................


All of that and more today's Catholics owe to the Protestant Reformation.
Actually, none of the things you enumerated are anything but traditions which can and have been changed. Except for indulgences, which never could be, and never were, sold.
And it was the printing press which made the Bible available, the Catholic Church did not keep the Bible from the people.
 
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seeingeyes

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In the sixteenth century some people got themselves into trouble with the bishops in Germany and then in trouble with the curia in Rome and the pope in Rome. Things went from a bit of debate about various moral and practical issues to a bunch of wars between the emerging principalities and religions in Germany and other northern European lands and the lands of southern Europe and some other places. It led to the state we have today in religion. Was it all worth it?

Was it "worth it" for Israel to be split in two? Were the divisions among the priests and leaders of Israel "worth it"?

I believe such divisions are part of The Plan, so yes, it's worth it.
 
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Root of Jesse

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Was it "worth it" for Israel to be split in two? Were the divisions among the priests and leaders of Israel "worth it"?

I believe such divisions are part of The Plan, so yes, it's worth it.

What's the connection, other than that these are man-caused divisions?? Besides which, Division is not part of the plan. God cannot be divided, and division is of the devil.
 
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