"No man knows" hmmmm

Rev20 said:

Have you not read the Bible? This earth will be here forever.

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Actually, there will be "a new heavens and a new earth" according to Scripture.

No doubt Christianity has been plagued by false teachers and false prophets over the years (2 Peter 2:1); but all were from the futurist ranks. Some were blatant, like Lindsey, Whisnant and Camping; and others more subtle, like Grant Jeffrey and John Walvoord. But all were futurists.

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When someone launches ad hominem attacks against Christian brethren who differ, then lumps them with false teachers like Camping, it indicates that that person has no meritorious arguments. Stick to the issues.

How long after 69 weeks?

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That's in God's hands. But the time is getting nearer.

The Abomination of Desolation occurred when Roman troops stepped onto the Holy Land (Cestius, 66AD; Luke 21:20-22.) That was when the Christians in Judaea fled to the mountains, as instructed by Christ in three of the four Gospels.

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If you examine the prophecies of Daniel, 2 Thessalonians and Revelation and compare them with exactly what happened and what did not happen in the 1st century, you will discover that the Abomination of Desolation did NOT stand in the holy place at that time. Had that actually happened the Day of the Lord judgements would have taken place also. Those are still future.

When you explain all the cosmic and cataclysmic events of the Old Testament, for which there is no mention in history, then you will have a little more credibility.

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Since we are focused on Matthew 24, let's deal with that first. No rabbit trails please.

Job8,
the judgements of the Lord on Israel did happen because so many of them followed the leader of the 'rebellion that desolates' of Dan 8:13. Jesus said there wuold be such judgements in fulfillment of all that was written, Lk 21.

If you are then wondering why the 2nd coming didn't happen right after, so am I, but it didn't and a person is free to reconstruct as they like, so long as the 2nd coming in judgement is still maintained. Whether it is soon or not is also not clear.

I don't know why Rev20 has that permanent earth doctrine, either.

PhillipLaSpino said:

2 Thes.2:7, “For the mystery of iniquity doth already work:” So we are told that anti-Christianity was already at work in Paul’s day.”

In Matt.24:33-34-35, Jesus said, “When ye shall see all these things (all the end time events He spoke of in Matt.24,) know that it (the time) is near, even at the door.” --- “This generation (those living at the time who witness these things, they), shall NOT pass till all these things be fulfilled.”

So there are those in this end time generation who will witness the events described in Matt.24, and some shall still be alive when they end) ---- Jesus goes on to say, “But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.”

Here’s my question, is there any N.T. scripture written after Jesus spoke the above words that states, the Father would not/never reveal these things to someone in the future?

When Jesus was asked the question, no-one knew, so he was correct! But I cannot find anywhere in Scripture that states that the Father would never reveal the time to someone in the future, as in “the days we now live in, this generation????????????”

I am speaking only of the events Jesus spoke of in Matt.24.

Your thoughts,

Phil

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My take on mattrew 24:

I believe that these verses ," no one knows the day or the hour" refers to the people who are waiting for the 2nd coming of Christ back to to the earth to set up His kingdom. The times and seasons will be changed by the Antichrist, plus the moon and sun will be darkened and will not show light. They will see then see the son of man in theclouds coming back to earth; this is not the rapture. Yes, the times can be calculated, but it will be very confusing for the people living on the earth at that time.

I believe in the imminentcy of the rapture. We will not know the date and time. It will occur when the fullness of the gentiles come in. It is number sensitive not date sensitive. When that last gentile comes to salvation in the lord, he will call his bride home.

This date of the rapture is only known by our father in heaven and is not for us to know. That's why we are to remain watchful.

Job8 said:

Actually, there will be "a new heavens and a new earth" according to Scripture.


When someone launches ad hominem attacks against Christian brethren who differ, then lumps them with false teachers like Camping, it indicates that that person has no meritorious arguments. Stick to the issues.


That's in God's hands. But the time is getting nearer.


If you examine the prophecies of Daniel, 2 Thessalonians and Revelation and compare them with exactly what happened and what did not happen in the 1st century, you will discover that the Abomination of Desolation did NOT stand in the holy place at that time. Had that actually happened the Day of the Lord judgements would have taken place also. Those are still future.


Since we are focused on Matthew 24, let's deal with that first. No rabbit trails please.

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To deny that the abomination of desolation is an event in the past, is a denial of scripture.


Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Mar 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Luk 23:28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.
Luk 23:29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.
Luk 23:30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.
Luk 23:31 For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry?


The Romans under Cestus Gallus had surrounded Jerusalem in 66 AD, but left for no known reason and suffered heavy losses during the retreat.

The city was destroyed in 70 AD after it was surrounded again by the army of Titus.

The Christians had left the city and fled to Pella, before Titus destroyed the city.

They did as Christ commanded in Matthew chapter 24. They fled.

Antiochus Epiphanes had sacrificed a pig on the altar in the temple in times past. After the temple was destroyed in 70 AD the Roman standards were set up at the site and sacrifices were made to Titus.

Others believe the behavior of the Jews during the siege were an abomination. Some of the women ate their children. Blood ran in the streets before the Romans got into the city with Jews killing each other.

We also have the words of Josephus who was a witness to the events of 70 AD confirming that Daniel's prophecy of the desolation, occurred in 70 AD.


The Antiquities of the Jews by Flavius Josephus
Book 10/ Chapter 11

(275) and that from among them there should arise a certain king that should overcome our nation and their laws, and should take away our political government, and should spoil the temple, and forbid the sacrifices to be offered for three years’ time. (276) And indeed it so came to pass, that our nation suffered these things under Antiochus Epiphanes, according to Daniel’s vision, and what he wrote many years before they came to pass. In the very same manner Daniel also wrote concerning the Roman government, and that our country should be made desolate by them.



Any attempt to claim the Abomination of Desolation has not occurred is a "Rabbit Trail".

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BABerean2 said:

To deny that the abomination of desolation is an event in the past, is a denial of scripture.


Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Mar 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Luk 23:28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.
Luk 23:29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.
Luk 23:30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.
Luk 23:31 For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry?


The Romans under Cestus Gallus had surrounded Jerusalem in 66 AD, but left for no known reason and suffered heavy losses during the retreat.

The city was destroyed in 70 AD after it was surrounded again by the army of Titus.

The Christians had left the city and fled to Pella, before Titus destroyed the city.

They did as Christ commanded in Matthew chapter 24. They fled.

Antiochus Epiphanes had sacrificed a pig on the altar in the temple in times past. After the temple was destroyed in 70 AD the Roman standards were set up at the site and sacrifices were made to Titus.

Others believe the behavior of the Jews during the siege were an abomination. Some of the women ate their children. Blood ran in the streets before the Romans got into the city with Jews killing each other.

We also have the words of Josephus who was a witness to the events of 70 AD confirming that Daniel's prophecy of the desolation, occurred in 70 AD.


The Antiquities of the Jews by Flavius Josephus
Book 10/ Chapter 11

(275) and that from among them there should arise a certain king that should overcome our nation and their laws, and should take away our political government, and should spoil the temple, and forbid the sacrifices to be offered for three years’ time. (276) And indeed it so came to pass, that our nation suffered these things under Antiochus Epiphanes, according to Daniel’s vision, and what he wrote many years before they came to pass. In the very same manner Daniel also wrote concerning the Roman government, and that our country should be made desolate by them.



Any attempt to claim the Abomination of Desolation has not occurred is a "Rabbit Trail".

.

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You seem to be under the delusion that the abomination of desolation that has not occurred yet and is spoken of in Matt 24 is the same desolation that is spoken of in Luke which occurred in 70ad.

The abomination of desolation will be set up in the Temple in the future. Not the same as the desolation or destruction of 70ad.

Pry those eyes open and see.

Choose Wisely said:

You seem to be under the delusion that the abomination of desolation that has not occurred yet and is spoken of in Matt 24 is the same desolation that is spoken of in Luke which occurred in 70ad.

The abomination of desolation will be set up in the Temple in the future. Not the same as the desolation or destruction of 70ad.

Pry those eyes open and see.

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You are correct about one thing.

Someone is deluded if they think the parallel passages in the 3 different Gospel accounts are not related.


Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Mar 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.


Can see it now or are you still in that river in Egypt?

It is know as denial.

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BABerean2 said:

You are correct about one thing.

Someone is deluded if they think the parallel passages in the 3 different Gospel accounts are not related.


Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Mar 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.


Can see it now or are you still in that river in Egypt?

It is know as denial.

.

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I would add bold and large size to the "THEN'S" as well:

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Mar 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.


The Synoptic accounts are indeed SYNOPTIC:

It's the SAME "WHEN" it's the same "THEN" and it's the same time to "FLEE" in all 3.

BABerean2 said:

To deny that the abomination of desolation is an event in the past, is a denial of scripture.

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Au contraire, it is an affirmation of Scripture taken as a whole and having compared Scripture with Scripture. If the Abomination of Desolation had indeed occurred in the past then not only Antichrist but the whole unbelieving and ungodly world would have experienced the Wrath of the Lamb (the Day of the LORD), and all those cataclysmic events spoken of by Christ would have literally destroyed this earth.

The Day of the LORD immediately follows the Abomination of Desolation, and then we have the second coming of Christ "WITH POWER AND GREAT GLORY" to destroy all His enemies and the enemies of Israel before setting up His Kingdom on earth in which there is ONLY PEACE AND RIGHTEOUSNESS. The Day of the Lord is not yet here, but not too far away either. Look around you and dump your mythical beliefs.

Job8 said:

Au contraire, it is an affirmation of Scripture taken as a whole and having compared Scripture with Scripture. If the Abomination of Desolation had indeed occurred in the past then not only Antichrist but the whole unbelieving and ungodly world would have experienced the Wrath of the Lamb (the Day of the LORD), and all those cataclysmic events spoken of by Christ would have literally destroyed this earth.

The Day of the LORD immediately follows the Abomination of Desolation, and then we have the second coming of Christ "WITH POWER AND GREAT GLORY" to destroy all His enemies and the enemies of Israel before setting up His Kingdom on earth in which there is ONLY PEACE AND RIGHTEOUSNESS. The Day of the Lord is not yet here, but not too far away either. Look around you and dump your mythical beliefs.

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Based on your top statement, you will never be able to see the truth of what is written in God's Word as long as it must fit into your system of interpretation.

It is like driving a square peg into a round hole of the same diameter with a sledgehammer. It can be done. However, it is going to do some damage to the parts.

You have seen the truth, but cannot bring yourself to admit it, because it destroys your false system of interpretation.



Your statement above is circular reasoning. I have seen others turn to this false logic when faced with the truth about Daniel 9:27 and the abomination of desolation found in the Gospels.



At this point we should have a conversation about intellectual honesty.

All I can say to you is, that it looks like we will never agree on this point.

My purpose here is to simply show the truth found in the text.

Hopefully, others reading the posts of this forum have seen our conversation and will make up their minds based on what they believe to be the truth written in the Word.

If you are happy with your system of interpretation, then so be it.



Peace be to you, Brother.


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To Job8,
I know what you're saying, but the situation is quite differrent. There is no avoiding that the 70th week was about Christ's Gospel and that entailed on that was a disaster in the 1st century known as the DofJ.

What you are struggling with, then, is the fact that history has gone on. It should have ended, by any understanding of the apostles and by many statements that everything was to happen very quickly. Look at the problem at Thess: some thought it already had happened!

After the dust settles, and the world was going on, the beliefs of this sector of the Christian message had to change to: the Father did not end the world (only the Father knows, Mt24B) but has delayed that, and the "Master" of the parable of the attentive servants (Mk 13) has decided to come later (4 options were given).

There are no other beliefs in details about things in Israel that can be asserted. The abomination was the rebellion that desolates of Dan 8 and that language carried on into that last line of Dan 9 which took place in the generation of the Gospel event. That battle in Rev 21 at the end of time is everywhere on earth, not about the physical Jerusalem, but the one that is above that does not come down yet because the groom has not prepared everything.

It always surprises me that futurism, even BW, will evade the one NT text on the AofD (although I think that person is who is meant by the Thess materials) and push everything to the future, because in general futurism doesn't understand how the NT uses the OT, and is far more interested in modern/future events and pressing everything possible to be about that.

BABerean2 said:

You are correct about one thing.

Someone is deluded if they think the parallel passages in the 3 different Gospel accounts are not related.


Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Mar 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.


Can see it now or are you still in that river in Egypt?

It is know as denial.

.

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I realize even though most can figure out that the abomination of desolation spoke of by Daniel the prophet is set up in end times some have blinders on that come from a long line of false teaching. That said...........please let me know after the events of 70ad happened........then we need to address these verses:

Matt 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Please let me know when this happened as we can see that this occurs immediately after the tribulation of............what you think is 70ad.

Choose Wisely said:

I realize even though most can figure out that the abomination of desolation spoke of by Daniel the prophet is set up in end times some have blinders on that come from a long line of false teaching. That said...........please let me know after the events of 70ad happened........then we need to address these verses:

Matt 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Please let me know when this happened as we can see that this occurs immediately after the tribulation of............what you think is 70ad.

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We must remember that the disciples asked Christ two questions.

1. When will the temple be destroyed?
2. What will be the sign of your coming and the end of the age?


The arguments always come up when discussing which verse changes from the first question to the second question.

In Luke's Gospel there seems to be a change between Luke 21:24 and Luke 21:25.


Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

.................................................................................

Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;


What I am going to say next is my opinion only.

This would be the point where the discussion changes from the events that happened in 70 AD to the events of the 2nd Coming, which are in the future.

This makes me a partial futurist.

If we apply this logic to Matthew's Gospel, it means verses 24:29 and after are referring to the Second Coming. In my opinion all of those things will happen on the last day of the trib. (The last day of John chapter 6)

If you are going to ask me to explain the word "immediately". I cannot give any certain answer, however remember that the word "tribulation" does not necessarily mean the end-time tribulation period. Those in the city of Jerusalem most certainly underwent tremendous tribulation during the siege of 70 AD. Also, the Apostles underwent tribulation and most of them became martyrs. Some believe the Church has been under tribulation from persecution since it began.




I do not claim to have all of the answers. In some cases the text is clear and in others we may never know until we get there. At that point you can tell me I was wrong, if that is the case. I do not think either of us will care at that point.

Choose Wisely said:

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

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The Preterists are always stumped by this roadblock, therefore they will tell you that this is all allegorical, symbolical, figurative, mythical, imaginary, delusional. I've already brought this up, and Preterists simply dodge this issue.

The honest response should be "Because of this, we acknowledge that Preterism is a false, man-made teaching which originated when the Reformers began to call the pope the Antichrist, and therefore the focus had to be shifted to Nero ('the Beast')". That was a Roman Catholic dodge which infected Protestants.

PhillipLaSpino said:

Bibletruth469, thanks for not hi-jacking my tread. You wrote, "I believe that these verses, "no one knows the day or the hour" refers to the people who are waiting for the 2nd coming of Christ back to to the earth to set up His kingdom."

Phil replies, "Agreed! But in your statement lies the great divide!

1. Christian's are waiting for the Lord to return and catch away his people. This will occur before the tribulation.

2. Jews are waiting for the Lord to return to set up His Kingdom in Israel, a time when every Jew will call on the name of the Lord, a time when every Jew will be a priest unto the Lord, and the nations of the world will come to the Lord. This will come when the tribulation period is finished.

The question asked by the apostles in Matt.24:3 is a Jewish concern only. The disciples who were with Christ on the Mt. had accepted Him as their Messiah, and they expected Him to rid the Jews of their enemies, not understanding that He had to die first, and be raised. Also they had no knowledge of the gospel having to go out to the Gentile nations. And because of this lack of understanding they had no idea that there would be a space of time (2000) years in which the time of the Gentiles would be fulfilled, this before He would return to fulfill all His promises to them.

Thanks,

Phil LaSpino

"Closed mouths gather no feet!"

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Yes, I agree with you. The tribulation will happen after the rapture of the church. Israel will accept her Messiah Jesus Christ after He comes back to earth after the tribulation.

A partial blinding has occurred with the unbelieving Jews today. They will finally have the blinders removed with their belief in him at the second coming.

The Jews , like you mentioned were expecting a concoring King right away and they didnt understand a time gap that would be known as the church age.

I do not believe that God gives us Christians the knowledge about a day or hour the rapture will occur, however we will know the season.

Job8 wrote:
The Preterists are always stumped by this roadblock, therefore they will tell you that this is all allegorical, symbolical, figurative, mythical, imaginary, delusional. I've already brought this up, and Preterists simply dodge this issue.

Not at all Job8. I've never seen the allegory part and if you think they think Jesus was delusional, you'll be handed a warning which I will request.

The only logical thing a person can do with the fact that the world did not end (the Mt24B things did not all happen right after the destruction of Jerusalem) is to refer back to Mk 13's parable of the attentive servants and to "only the Father knows."

I read what you wrote, but I'm very dissapointed to find that you don't read what I write. I have posted this position for 2 years now. How could possibly miss it and still think you know what others are saying here? I am a historian first and theologian second.

The most useful quote about sorting out the delayed end of the world will be found in Lattourrette's history, p43, about how the apostles had no opinion about any of this except that there still had to be a final day of judgement.

As for Phil's material, the time of immense upheaval must be sorted out. I'd have to have good reasons to know what it is not the DofJ. You can't cherry pick Mt24:3 and compartmentalize what it applies to.

Job8 said:

Actually, there will be "a new heavens and a new earth" according to Scripture.

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If you interpret it literally, sorta. But there are all sorts of obstacles to a literal interpretation, from the underlying Greek of the word "Elements" in Peter, to the corpses in Isaiah 66, and to the "healing of the nations" in Rev. 22.
.

Job8 said:

When someone launches ad hominem attacks against Christian brethren who differ, then lumps them with false teachers like Camping, it indicates that that person has no meritorious arguments. Stick to the issues.

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What do you think of the person who made this statement?


A nasty sorta fellow, huh?
.

Job8 said:

If you examine the prophecies of Daniel, 2 Thessalonians and Revelation and compare them with exactly what happened and what did not happen in the 1st century, you will discover that the Abomination of Desolation did NOT stand in the holy place at that time. Had that actually happened the Day of the Lord judgements would have taken place also. Those are still future.

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I have been examining prophecy, in one manner or another, for about a half century. What do you think I may have missed in those prophecies that would lead me to believe you don't understand them?
.

Job8 said:

Since we are focused on Matthew 24, let's deal with that first. No rabbit trails please.

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Did anyone ever tell you that you are bossy? I do not believe that to be an appropriate (or constructive) attitude in a debate forum, but it is not unheard of in a rookie.

Let us try this: if you will show me why you believe Matthew 24 is future, I will show you why I believe it is not.

Job8 said:

The Preterists are always stumped by this roadblock, therefore they will tell you that this is all allegorical, symbolical, figurative, mythical, imaginary, delusional. I've already brought this up, and Preterists simply dodge this issue.

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Why would anyone dodge that issue? The simple response is, we know from both the old and new testaments that stars are not always stars, fire is not always fire, swords are not always swords, etc..

For example, this is a prophecy about Antiochus IV, the nasty fellow who caused one of the abominations of desolation that Daniel wrote of:


LOL! Superman would be jealous of Antiochus.

This is Isaiah's prophecy on the ancient judgment of Idumea:


If the host of heaven was literally desolved, or the heavens literally departed as a scroll, no one bothered to record it for history. Of course, Mr. Super-Duper Man himself, Antiochus IV, cast some of the host of heaven to the ground and stamped on them (along with some stars.) LOL!

And what about these stars?



The scripture is loaded with symbolism, which should be no surprise since the Lord said this:

Job8 said:

The honest response should be "Because of this, we acknowledge that Preterism is a false, man-made teaching which originated when the Reformers began to call the pope the Antichrist, and therefore the focus had to be shifted to Nero ('the Beast')". That was a Roman Catholic dodge which infected Protestants.

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That is strange? I thought the Jesuits were the ones who gave us dispensationalism? You ever hear of that Lacunza fellow?

Those are tired, old arguments, that do little more than demonstrate that you are new to the forum, and/or you are not sure enough of your own doctrine to let it stand on its own, so you must resort to smearing the doctrine of others to save face.

In any case, I recommend you refrain from your vain attempt to poison the well, and, rather, join in the debate.

Job8 said:

The Preterists are always stumped by this roadblock, therefore they will tell you that this is all allegorical, symbolical, figurative, mythical, imaginary, delusional. I've already brought this up, and Preterists simply dodge this issue.

The honest response should be "Because of this, we acknowledge that Preterism is a false, man-made teaching which originated when the Reformers began to call the pope the Antichrist, and therefore the focus had to be shifted to Nero ('the Beast')". That was a Roman Catholic dodge which infected Protestants.

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If you believe the temple was destroyed in 70 AD then you are a preterist.

It would seem that you are attempting to place some of us into a box labeled preterist, so that you can pile straw up around that box and set it on fire.


The Olivet Discourse contains the answers to both questions asked by the disciples.

1. When will the temple be destroyed?
2. What will be the sign of your coming and the end of the world?

One has happened and one has not.

That makes those who hold this view a partial preterist, which would also be a partial futurist.


Does your view differ from this or will you be in the burning box with the rest of us?

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