Hell wasn't intended for us but we are still sent there?

TheyCallMeDavid · Jan 2, 2015

someonelikeyou said:
Well hell wasn't intended for us but we go there now only because there isn't another place for us to go when we carry sin after death. Just like hell didn't exist at one time why can't god create something that is intended for us that doesn't exist now, to help us learn from our mistakes over multiple life times?

I don't agree with good people going to hell but truth is there are good people going to hell and not because they despise god and don't choose him but because they made just a few minor sins and most don't even know that they have sinned and think they are saved; for example here is the testimony of a catholic priest almost getting sent to hell.
youtube.com/watch?v=QqiqO5BzH74

I don't believe God needs to create a new place ; all sin goes to hell / people will learn their lesson in hell / and punishment for rejecting the creator because people wanted to be thier own 'god' will be common amongst everybody in hell. Lastly, there are no 'good' people in Gods eyes for we have all sinned and deserve Hell . Its by Gods grace and our cooperation having simple faith and trust in Jesus paying our penalty, that we escape hell. Perfectly fair is our God.

Philpy1976 · Jan 2, 2015

Some vessels are made specifically to display God's love and kindness.
Others are made to display His power and wrath.

This is what Paul tells us in Romans.

someonelikeyou · Jan 2, 2015

Philpy1976 said:
Some vessels are made specifically to display God's love and kindness.
Others are made to display His power and wrath.

This is what Paul tells us in Romans.

So your saying that god purposely and single handedly would create one of us just for the purpose of displaying his power and wrath? That's quite sad that an all mighty god can't find another way to display his power and wrath.

So he knowingly has created some of us to burn in an everlasting fire just so people would respect his power and might? Just imagine if you told your mother or father that you were going to have kids and some of them you have chosen to set on fire so people would respect you, how would they react?

Yea i shouldn't question god but how else are we suppose to get to know him? That's what he want's right? So we need to question these things if we expect to understand him as the god he is.

There has to be a better way to show your wrath and power if that's what he truly desires, to be respected. Do people respect Mike Tyson sure because he can knock you out and he didn't have to burn anybody for an eternity to gain that respect and he doesn't have to go around and threaten people all the time or have them tremble just to prove it.

It sounds to me like he rules out of fear and not love because true love you wouldn't take a creation of yours and design him to be your opposition. Instead you would wan't your creation to love and follow you, what would be more glorious then having all of your creation's made in your image to spend an eternity with you.

I mean does a king really have to keep his people in fear of him in order to follow him? I don't fear my mother or father but i listen to them because i love them. Shouldn't his kingdom run that way? If he asks you to do something you do it because you love him even more then your parent's to the point you would do anything for him because it would break your heart to say no. Now that's that type of kingdom that i wish he ruled.

Albion · Jan 2, 2015

someonelikeyou said:
It sounds to me like he rules out of fear and not love because true love you wouldn't take a creation of your's and design him to be your opposition. .

Well, the Bible doesn't teach that he designs anyone to be his opposition. However, we all do sin. If he chooses to save some sinners, that doesn't make the others sinless.

If there is anyone who can face God on Judgment Day and say that he kept the Law perfectly, that man deserves heaven. But who falls into that category?

ALoveDivine · Jan 2, 2015

The idea of preordained reprobation is foreign to scripture and the early church. None of the earliest church fathers would have even taken such notions seriously. God desires all men to be saved and takes absolutely no pleasure in the death in the wicked. God does not show partiality but desires all men to repent and come to a knowledge of the truth. Christ died for the sins of the whole world and invites all men to repent and believe. The bible is clear on all these points from cover to cover.

God never created any man with the purpose of sending him to hell. God created us to have a deep spiritual communion with himself into eternity. He loves us all deeply and desires that no one may perish. Yet we have free will and are consequently free to reject the grace and love of God. If we end up condemned we will have no one to blame but ourselves.

God would love to see every single person on earth be saved. Yet in our stubborn hardness of hard and our addiction to the darkness within, many will not make it to glory. But how dare we defame the good and gracious character of the Holy Triune God of omnipotent love by attributing to him such inane and blasphemous notions as the high-calvinistic doctrine of ordained reprobation.

Albion · Jan 2, 2015

ALoveDivine said:
The idea of preordained reprobation is foreign to scripture and the early church.

It's not foreign to scripture and it's not the case that reprobates wind up in hell DESPITE deserving heaven. That's the point that opponents of Election always stumble on, just as you did here.

chapmic · Jan 2, 2015

I mean does a king really have to keep his people in fear of him in order to follow him? I don't fear my mother or father but i listen to them because i love them. Shouldn't his kingdom run that way? If he asks you to do something you do it because you love him even more then your parent's to the point you would do anything for him because it would break your heart to say no. Now that's that type of kingdom that i wish he ruled.

His kingdom does run that way, We listen to him because we Love him. That's why we call him the Father. Weren't you disobedient when were you a kid? Do you think your parents were "evil" when they punished you for your disobedience?

ALoveDivine · Jan 2, 2015

It's not foreign to scripture

Certain passages can be read to imply this doctrine. Yet if you look at the bigger picture, the whole scope of scripture, it is clear that God desires all men to be saved and takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. Calvinism seems to be at root a western philosophical contrivance foreign to the apostolic faith.

it's not the case that reprobates wind up in hell DESPITE deserving heaven

It is true that no one deserves heaven. It is also true that God desires all men to be saved. So, it is not true that he predetermines certain individuals to go to hell, and that these individuals are simply screwed with no chance of heaven.

Free will is a reality my friend, calvinistic determinism didn't even enter the picture until many many hundreds of years after the start of the church. God will save those who come to faith in Christ and yield to the transforming power of the Holy Spirit within, and hold fast to the faith. Those who will be lost are those who reject God and choose evil.

seeingeyes · Jan 2, 2015

Albion said:
Well, the Bible doesn't teach that he designs anyone to be his opposition. However, we all do sin. If he chooses to save some sinners, that doesn't make the others sinless.

If there is anyone who can face God on Judgment Day and say that he kept the Law perfectly, that man deserves heaven. But who falls into that category?

Saying that "no one deserves heaven" is not the same thing as saying "everyone deserves hell". There is quite a wide swath between the two options.

You don't deserve an Oscar, therefore you deserve to spend the rest of your natural life in a federal penitentiary...

Albion · Jan 2, 2015

seeingeyes said:
Saying that "no one deserves heaven" is not the same thing as saying "everyone deserves hell". There is quite a wide swath between the two options.

They're not options. But yes, the two points are both correct, and they are not the same.

You don't deserve an Oscar, therefore you deserve to spend the rest of your natural life in a federal penitentiary...

That statement seems to me to suggest a weak understanding of Christian theology when it comes to the matter of salvation. We are not saved because of our greatness, perfection, or worthiness. We are saved by an act of God. If we wind up eternally estranged from God, it's not in spite of us having deserved better.

If this is unclear, point to the part that confuses you and I'll try to explain this better.

seeingeyes · Jan 3, 2015

Albion said:
They're not options. But yes, the two points are both correct, and they are not the same.

That statement seems to me to suggest a weak understanding of Christian theology when it comes to the matter of salvation. We are not saved because of our greatness, perfection, or worthiness. We are saved by an act of God. If we wind up eternally estranged from God, it's not in spite of us having deserved better.

If this is unclear, point to the part that confuses you and I'll try to explain this better.

We are not saved because of our greatness, we are saved because of our weakness. The weak don't "deserve" saving. They need it.

Albion · Jan 3, 2015

seeingeyes said:
We are not saved because of our greatness, we are saved because of our weakness. The weak don't "deserve" saving. They need it.

Incorrect. We are not saved because of our weakness. We are saved in spite of our weakness, i.e. in spite of our sinfulness. The point here is that we do not deserve salvation but may get it anyway, therefore it is fundamentally wrong to put the matter this way:

You don't deserve an Oscar, therefore you deserve to spend the rest of your natural life in a federal penitentiary.

Having achieved perfection is NOT the reason that any of us may be saved, and we are not eternally lost (if that is what happens) even though we deserve heaven. We wouldn't be deserving...unless we had achieved perfection.

This is not a debate forum. I have attempted to answer the question of the thread, so unless there is still some confusion, this is the end from here.

seeingeyes · Jan 3, 2015

Albion said:
Incorrect. We are not saved because of our weakness. We are saved in spite of our weakness, i.e. in spite of our sinfulness. The point here is that we do not deserve salvation but may get it anyway, therefore it is fundamentally wrong to put the matter this way:

I'm not sure if I understand you. If we were not weak, we would not need saving from anything, so yes, we are saved because of our weakness.

Albion said:
Having achieved perfection is NOT the reason that any of us may be saved, and we are not eternally lost (if that is what happens) even though we deserve heaven. We wouldn't be deserving...unless we had achieved perfection.

This is not a debate forum. I have attempted to answer the question of the thread, so unless there is still some confusion, this is the end from here.

I'm claiming here that salvation is independent of what one "deserves".

Thanks for the sidebar.

Albion · Jan 3, 2015

seeingeyes said:
I'm not sure if I understand you. If we were not weak, we would not need saving from anything, so yes, we are saved because of our weakness.

Well, it's not on account of our weakness that we are saved.

I'm claiming here that salvation is independent of what one "deserves".

I'm afraid that we may be speaking past each other. The point I was making was that we all deserve hell if judged on our own record, so if any of us is given salvation instead, it's purely because of God's mercy, not anything of our own doing.

Philpy1976 · Jan 6, 2015

Ok, let's assume I am reading Romans 9 all wrong.
Let's assume that God doesn't, in fact, make some vessels for wrath while making others for Mercy.

Please explain Romans 9 to me and show me how its all about free will and has nothing to do with God making us the way we are.

sdowney717 · Jan 6, 2015

Philpy1976 said:
Ok, let's assume I am reading Romans 9 all wrong.
Let's assume that God doesn't, in fact, make some vessels for wrath while making others for Mercy.

Please explain Romans 9 to me and show me how its all about free will and has nothing to do with God making us the way we are.

2 thess 2
13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.

2 Thess 2 describes in similar way as Romans 8-9-10-11 our great salvation experience with God.
The contrast is clearly shown between the saved and the unsaved.

Prior to what is taught here about the Lord calling and choosing for us to know Him and be saved it says,

9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Satan deceives those of the world, God's righteous judgement sends upon the unsaved strong delusion to believe lies because they refuse to repent and believe the truth. Which if they are not chosen to be saved, they will not be repenting. God's light will not be shone into their hearts 2 Cor 4

4 Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we do not lose heart. 2 But we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness nor handling the word of God deceitfully, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God.

3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. 5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus’ sake.

6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Unless God has mercy, love, compassion for someone, revealing Himself to them, change their hearts and make them born again, a part of His kingdom, they are not going to be on the Lord's side.

It is for the sake of the elect Paul labors that they may obtain salvation, and for the sake of the elect who cry out to God night and day that He rescues, saves, shortens the days of tribulation and avenges them speedily.

For the chosen. beloved elect
Eph 2
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

And Peter also says
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:

Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

If some are elect, chosen in Him before the foundation of the world, and they are the saved, then there are some not chosen. Many are called but few are chosen, Jesus did not say few choose.

3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship[c] through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he[d] made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.

Philpy1976 · Jan 6, 2015

sdowney717

You seem to be agreeing with how I read Romans 9 then?

sdowney717 · Jan 7, 2015

Philpy1976 said:
sdowney717

You seem to be agreeing with how I read Romans 9 then?

yes, Romans 9 is not about Israel, it is about all mankind.

Psalm 100 New King James Version (NKJV)

A Song of Praise for the Lord’s Faithfulness to His People
A Psalm of Thanksgiving.

Make a joyful shout to the Lord, all you lands!
2 Serve the Lord with gladness;
Come before His presence with singing.

3 Know that the Lord, He is God;
It is He who has made us, and not we ourselves;
We are His people and the sheep of His pasture.

We have not made ourselves by an exercise of our free will, if we are His people, then He has made us by an exercise of His mercy and will.
And if some are left in their unsaved condition, that is shown that they have not been given mercy or compassion to be saved.

God commands all men to repent and believe and be saved all over the earth, but He does not help supernaturally all men to be saved.

SOTERIOLOGY

sdowney717 · Jan 7, 2015

1 Peter 2

Behold, I lay in Zion
A chief cornerstone, elect, precious,
And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame.
7 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient,[c]

The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone,[d]
8 and

A stone of stumbling
And a rock of offense.[e]
They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.

9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.

ezeric · Jan 7, 2015

Let me try to explain "free will" in layman's terms.

I have 2 teenage sons that live and move and have their being in my family, eating my food, living on my land, enjoying all that I (and my wife) have provided.

They have 'free will' in the sense that in my home (family) they can do many things and have a sense of freedom to do it.

But ultimately my will is done. The buck stops here as the old saying goes.

Now, I jest a little in my explanation and its very simple, I know.

It does show however their 'will' and 'my will' (as Father).
Yes, they have freedom and they have a will - sure, but its not the last word though.
Now, carrying that thought further. What is this Dad's will (my will) for my boys and family?

If you Fathers being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your SPIRITUAL HEAVENLY FATHER give good gift to those who ask? Matthew 7:11

I would want (will) what any of you parents would want for their children…heck JESUS tells us that evil Dads want this too. We want good to come their way, we want to see them succeed. So we put them and family in positions of blessings and success.

Now we can only do so much, and go so far as being parents with a will.
What about our Super Parent (FATHER) GOD?

As long as we use 'hell' as a fear tool for the lost - you won't win them.
For its HIS kindness that leads them to repentance. (not anger or fear).
Romans 2:4

-eric

Hell wasn't intended for us but we are still sent there?

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