"No man knows" hmmmm

PhillipLaSpino · Jan 2, 2015

2 Thes.2:7, For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: So we are told that anti-Christianity was already at work in Pauls day.

In Matt.24:33-34-35, Jesus said, When ye shall see all these things (all the end time events He spoke of in Matt.24,) know that it (the time) is near, even at the door. --- This generation (those living at the time who witness these things, they), shall NOT pass till all these things be fulfilled.

So there are those in this end time generation who will witness the events described in Matt.24, and some shall still be alive when they end) ---- Jesus goes on to say, But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Heres my question, is there any N.T. scripture written after Jesus spoke the above words that states, the Father would not/never reveal these things to someone in the future?

When Jesus was asked the question, no-one knew, so he was correct! But I cannot find anywhere in Scripture that states that the Father would never reveal the time to someone in the future, as in the days we now live in, this generation????????????

I am speaking only of the events Jesus spoke of in Matt.24.

Your thoughts,

Phil

Interplanner · Jan 2, 2015

There are two things Phil:
1, that Acts 1 says it is not for us to know; none of our business.
2, there is nothing clear at all in the NT about it, probably because of #1.

Only the parable of the attentive servants gives us one step of clarification(s) that the Master could return at one of 4 times...

I notice that you almost understood how present Mt24 was (this generation), but then you made the great modern mental skip and thought he was talking about us. Watch out for those skipabouts.

PhillipLaSpino · Jan 2, 2015

Interplanner, it's only a discussion, I'm sure Scriptures will prove or disprove what I am proposing, and have yet to propose. I am an inquisitive person and have always felt that many things in Scripture are not understood by modern thinkers because many are either closed minded, dogmatic, or have no imagination.

I have a pretty good handle on the Bible, and if something does't make sense to me, I will investigate it until I can draw a proper conclusion. I can think for myself, have a lot of God given common sense, and never could be led by the nose, so I guess you can call me "Independent."

Also what verse in Acts are you pointing to?

Phil

parousia70 · Jan 2, 2015

PhillipLaSpino said:
In Matt.24:33-34-35, Jesus said, “When ye shall see all these things (all the end time events He spoke of in Matt.24,) know that it (the time) is near, even at the door.” ---

What did Jesus mean by "near and at the door" in this verse Phil?

2000 years "near to God"? or "near" in the plain human sense?

Do you think James knew what sense Jesus meant by Near and at the doors when James wrote this:

8 You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near.
9 Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door!

Was James wrong? did James mean something polar opposite from Jesus when He used the EXACT same term "near and at the door"?

Here’s my question, is there any N.T. scripture written after Jesus spoke the above words that states, the Father would not/never reveal these things to someone in the future?

He did reveal it to John later on:

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.

Remember in Matt 24, Jesus said "when you see these things KNOW THAT IT IS NEAR" not before you see these things, but WHEN you see them.... then later on in Revelation Jesus says "THE TIME IS NEAR", signifying "all these things" spoken of in Matt 24 must have been seen, otherwise we would not have the disciple testifying "the time is near" , something Jesus said WOULD NOT BE TRUE until they saw "all these things".

John continues in his testimony that the time had come....

9 I, John, both[e] your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, 11 saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” and,[f] “What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia:[g] to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.”

Above we can clearly see that John is writing during "the tribulation of Jesus Christ" testifying that the day of the lord (the Lord's day) had arrived.

So yes, to answer your question, Jesus did indeed provide his servants with furthur information about the timing of "all these things" after he delivered Matt 24.

PhillipLaSpino · Jan 2, 2015

Parousia, thanks for your comments. I will take some of the the words you highlighted.

You wrote, "the coming of the Lord is near," and Jesus is at the door!"

When the above was written, Jesus had not gone to the cross. After His resurrection, he sent His Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit was in the 1st century Christian's as He is in us today, therefore from the moment the first Christian's receive the Lord Jesus to this day, the door has been opened to all Christians, and the saved have already walked into God's eternity in both soul, and spirit, and our resurrected bodies will follow. The door Jesus opened to us is a door that no man can shut; therefore the 1st century Christian's had immediate access to the Father, as we will on day when we leave this earth. Therefore the phrase, "The Lord is near" was correct.

In Rev. we read, "things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near."

In the second chapter of Revelation; again, Jesus is speaking to the early church through His Holy Spirit. The Church had a beginning (Pentecost) and will have an end one day. The Holy Spirit was sent and the words of the prophesy began to take place in the 1st century church, this shortly after his resurrection.

So the phrases, "shortly" and "for the time is near" have been qualified.

Concerning the word "tribulation" it's used throughout the N.T. as a metaphor and concerns the pressure, evils, afflictions and distress all Christians will have/are/will suffer until the Lord returns.

Now when you add the word "Great" to tribulation, we are speaking of the 7 years of tribulation, big difference! Great is used as a Trope, and adds to the word tribulation the idea of great force, intensity, effecting man externally, and internally it will greatly effect the mind, and emotions of a person.

Also the great tribulation spoken of in Revelation is not speaking to the body of Christ, but to the fallen Jews, and Gentile world, it serving as a warning to all who reject the Lord's finished work.

Phil LaSpino

Job8 · Jan 2, 2015

Matthew 24:36 is speaking about the second coming of Christ, not about the rest of the Olivet Discourse. No man knows that day and hour since only God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit know precisely when the Son of Man will come "with power and great glory".

However, we know that there will be a series of events before His coming, which are described in both the OT and NT. To that extent we can have an indication of where we are in God's timeframe. In fact the Lord points to the setting up of th Abomination of Desolation as a sign that the Great Tribulation will come next.

PhillipLaSpino · Jan 2, 2015

Job8, My question was based on what Jesus said, But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

So, here's the question again, "is there any N.T. Scripture written after Jesus spoke the above words that states, the Father would never reveal the day or the hour to anyone in the future?"

At the time Jesus spoke these words, He was correct; but his words never implied that the Father would not reveal the day or hour. Of course it would be through the scriptures and what has already been written. He would do this by opening up our understanding to this mystery. If there is I cannot find it!

Phil LaSpino

parousia70 · Jan 2, 2015

PhillipLaSpino said:
Parousia, thanks for your comments. I will take some of the the words you highlighted.

You wrote, "the coming of the Lord is near," and Jesus is at the door!"

When the above was written, Jesus had not gone to the cross. After His resurrection, he sent His Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit was in the 1st century Christian's as He is in us today, therefore from the moment the first Christian's receive the Lord Jesus to this day, the door has been opened to all Christians, and the saved have already walked into God's eternity in both soul, and spirit, and our resurrected bodies will follow. The door Jesus opened to us is a door that no man can shut; therefore the 1st century Christian's had immediate access to the Father, as we will on day when we leave this earth. Therefore the phrase, "The Lord is near" was correct.

So in Matt 24:33 your claim is that Jesus was speaking of the arrival of the Holy Spirit?:

So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it (the arrival of the Holy Spirit) is near, even at the doors.

The Church had a beginning (Pentecost) and will have an end one day.

Not according to Paul and Isaiah.

Eph 3:21:
21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

The Church is ETERNAL.

Isaiah 9:7a
7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end,

Job8 · Jan 2, 2015

PhillipLaSpino said:
So, here's the question again, "is there any N.T. Scripture written after Jesus spoke the above words that states, the Father would never reveal the day or the hour to anyone in the future?"

Phil,

It should be quite clear from that Scripture alone that God has no intention of revealing that day and hour to any human being before the second coming. That's why Christ said again and again that he would come when least expected.

So that question is moot.

keras · Jan 2, 2015

The fact is that anyone with a Bible and living in Jerusalem when the Anti-Christ desecrates the Temple, CAN know when Jesus will Return. Revelation 11:2 and Daniel 12:11 Although Rev. says 1260 days and Daniel says 1290 days, I see the 30 day period as the time from the gathering of His people, Matthew 24:31, 2 Thess. 4:16-17 until the events of Rev 20:1-6; during which time the Battle of Armageddon takes place and for His people; the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.

What we don't know exactly when it will happen, is the terrible Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath. The event that will commence the end time countdown. But from all the signs, we know that is now very close. Be aware and be prepared! Isaiah 24

parousia70 · Jan 2, 2015

keras said:
The fact is that anyone with a Bible and living in Jerusalem when the Anti-Christ desecrates the Temple, CAN know when Jesus will Return.

1) Any rebuilt Temple in modern Jerusalem can not be the temple Mentioned here:

Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. (2 Thess 2:4)

2) Paul's Man of Sin and John's Antichrist are not the same entity, and not one single scripture teaches otherwise.

from all the signs, we know that is now very close. Be aware and be prepared! Isaiah 24

...Said every single end time prognosticator of every previous generation to ours.

Why should anyone believe your predictions won't suffer the same fate as all previous predictions from all previous peoples?

riverrat · Jan 2, 2015

parousis70 wrote:

The Church is ETERNAL.

Isaiah 9:7a
7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end,

I agree that the Church is eternal but Isaiah is not referring to the Church, the body of Christ, here. The Church is not referenced in the OT. The church, the body of Christ, was a mystery(secret) until God revealed it to Paul.

parousia70 · Jan 2, 2015

riverrat said:
parousis70 wrote:

I agree that the Church is eternal

Good, but too bad you futurists can't seem to agree with one another about it.

You might want to let your fellow futurist buddy Phillip in on that little factoid.

but Isaiah is not referring to the Church, the body of Christ, here.

What is Isaiah referring to here then, if not The Church?
Is not the Church under the governorship of Christ?

The Church is not referenced in the OT. The church, the body of Christ, was a mystery(secret) until God revealed it to Paul.

The Church existed from the time of Moses:

Acts 7:37-39

37This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.
38This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
39 To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt,[/QUOTE]

riverrat · Jan 2, 2015

parousia70 said:
Good, but too bad you futurists can't seem to agree with one another about it.

You might want to let your fellow futurist buddy Phillip in on that little factoid.

What is Isaiah referring to here then, if not The Church?
Is not the Church under the governorship of Christ?

The Church existed from the time of Moses:

Acts 7:37-39

37This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.
38This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
39 To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt,

[/quote]
I do not know the "Buddy" to which you refer. Futurists disagree on some things just as I assume you and your preterist buddies disagree on some things.
Isaiah is referring to Christ's kingdom reign on earth.
Moses's reference to the church in the wilderness is not the same assembly as the body of Christ.

PhillipLaSpino · Jan 2, 2015

Parousia, I was talking about the natural church, you know, men, women, flesh, bones, mortals those of us who are born into the world and will one day leave this world one way or another. No Christian in this flesh will ever stand before the Father's throne, not until we have received our incorruptable resurrected bodies. And to receive this spiritual body incorruptible, you had better be sealed by the Holy Spirit in this world.

Also the word Church in the Christian sense means a gathering, an assembly of brothers and sisters in Christ and it doesn't have to be in a building or church, it can be in the middle of a jungle.

In the Jewish sense it is applied to Jews for the most part, and was/is a gathering or an assembling in their synagagues.

If you would stop and think, and give others some credit that we may have at least as much knowledge as you, instead of always trying to prove everyone wrong if they disagree with you. I am absolutely sure you dont know everything, even if you try to give the impression you do.

Why don't you be nice and try engaging us in a conversaton for a change. As a matter of fact, why don't you as well as others make that your New Years resolution; be polite, respectful, and please stop attempting to convince the world that you're the ultimate theologian.

Sorry, I am sick and tired of the arrogance that prevails with so many.

You can have the last word,

Phil

keras · Jan 2, 2015

parousia70 said:
1) Any rebuilt Temple in modern Jerusalem can not be the temple Mentioned here:

Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. (2 Thess 2:4)

2) Paul's Man of Sin and John's Antichrist are not the same entity, and not one single scripture teaches otherwise.

...Said every single end time prognosticator of every previous generation to ours.

Why should anyone believe your predictions won't suffer the same fate as all previous predictions from all previous peoples?

The new Temple that the Lord's holy people, Daniel 7:25, will build in Jerusalem, WILL be God's Temple; the Shekinah glory will be in it. Ezekiel 43:2
Re end times predictions: Those who have made that mistake, were obviously not at 'the time of the end', as per Daniel 12:8, but we see in verse 9 that a few 'wise leaders will understand'.
With your attitude toward end times, you won't be one of them.

mannysee · Jan 2, 2015

delete

parousia70 · Jan 2, 2015

keras said:
The new Temple that the Lord's holy people, Daniel 7:25, will build in Jerusalem, WILL be God's Temple; the Shekinah glory will be in it. Ezekiel 43:2

Such a false teaching is an anathema according to the apostles and the Cross work of Christ. Such a teaching is a falling away from salvation, a falling away from the grace of Christ.

ANY temple built by modern day Christ REJECTORS will NOT be "Gods temple" and will NOT house the Shekinah Glory.

Re end times predictions: Those who have made that mistake, were obviously not at 'the time of the end', as per Daniel 12:8,

But like you, they all thought they were.
I don't see any reason why I should believe you are any different than the THOUSANDS and maybe even MILLIONS who have come and gone before you who believed just as strongly as you do that they were right and all previous end timers were wrong....

With your attitude toward end times, you won't be one of them.

What attitude is that exactly? My attitude of the hope, purpose & love of the EVERLASTING Gospel ?

You think the attitude of "the sky is falling, there's an antichrist around every corner, doom and gloom everywhere and the anti semitism inherent in the belief that 2/3 of todays Jews must be slaughtered to bring to pass the end times" that modern day end time prognosticators are spewing, produces fruit worth harvesting?

Interplanner · Jan 2, 2015

It's one thing to believe some mistaken Judaizers would build a temple, and quite another to say that God himself wants it rebuilt. I can see where the 1st might happen.

keras · Jan 2, 2015

As usual the deniers are quite happy to ignore the many scriptures that prove they are wrong. Have you glued up the pages of Ezekiel 40 to 48 in your Bibles.?

"No man knows" hmmmm

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