Young Earth, Old Earth, GAP or Other? Where do you Stand on the Creation Story?

What View of Creation do you Hold? (Christians Only Please)

  • Young Earth Creation

  • Old Earth Creation

  • GAP Theory

  • Other (Please Explain)


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dkbwarrior

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Gxg (G²);66846602 said:
And on the issue, seeing that I never just said that macro-evolution is a lot of micro-evolution added together, it would be beneficial if you could at least QUOTE me and show why you came to that conclusion rather than just throwing something out there. That's part of having rational discussion: Asking for clarification and giving your sources as to why you disagree.

I was referring to this:

Gxg (G²);66841747 said:
In the event that it doesn't make sense, here is a very colorful Explanation of (Macro-)Evolution, from Hemant Mehta, as this is an illustration of gradual change – what some call “microevolution” amounting in the long run to “macroevolution”:

xWpvw.jpg

Forgive me if I misinterpreted, but this sure sounded like you were saying that alot of small changes can add up to one big change, ie, “microevolution” amounting in the long run to “macroevolution”.

Peace...
 
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Gxg (G²)

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It is impossible to separate Natural Selection from DARWIN'S theory of evolution, quite true. But Darwin didn't really know where those traits came from because genetics as a science didn't even exist in his time. No-one had ever even heard of dna. It hadn't been discovered or even theorized yet. During his time their was still a debate going on as to whether or not learned behavior could be inherited. Mendel was the first to propose genetics, but the dna theory wasn't verified until Rosalind Franklin's 1952 x-ray photo of the double helix.
Since that time, Biological Evolution has undergone many changes. Random Mutation of the genetic code is part and parcel of Biological Evolution today.
It was among the first things I was taught last year in the section on Biological Evolution in my Biology class.
It tends to be inconsequential as to how Darwin did not know of genetics (although Mendel did ) because the reality is that his thesis on traits being passed on was still confirmed in the world of science afterward - and consequently, we have others still referencing his theories in the world of science today when it comes to seeing Natural Selection as a part of the Process of Evolution.

And as said before, it was NEVER just random mutation that was a part of Biological Evolution since non-random mutation was also a part of that. Most biologists will note this and have - and if necessary, it is no problem giving out the references for where this has been consistently noted. Taking biology classes and still having the books (as you're not the only one who has taken a Biology course on the college level - my cousin is at Emory University for Neurology and having dealt with that field in-depth), this is also something that was discussed plainly
The word evolution in the English Language simply means change. In that respect, we all believe in evolution. But I digress. The fact is, you can define words any way you want, but the scientific community defines Biological Evolution as Natural Selection of hereditable traits due to Random Mutation that increase the survivability of the species.
The dictionary probably doesn't define it that way, but the first page of nearly any Biology textbook certainly does.
As said before..

Anyone can claim "The Fact is.." - but thus far, you've not given a shred of facts. One needs to give actual reference - quotation - from actual biologists and the overall scientific consesus if trying to claim as you do. There are several other scientists already referenced earlier who've noted where Biological Evolution is beyond Natural Selection via Random Mutation - but if that cannot be dealt with, the definitions are not accurate.

Give out a Biology Textbook showing where your definition is the one for all in the world of Biology - but outside of that, Again, there's no need to speak in argument of sweeping generalities - one needs to give specifics.

Any other definition that you wish to use would be singular to you, and impossible to have a conversation about unless we all agree to your definition.

Peace...
You already did what you said of others since you are using a definition that you have not even shown to be universal when it comes to evolution, thus making the conversation impossible due to sticking to a definition you prefer (which is singular to you, really) instead of showing how the term is defined across the board. If wanting to speak on evolution, one needs to honestly deal with how others in the world of science speak on it - and if it varies, one needs to honestly deal with it as it is instead of saying "Well, I say evolution is this!" in order to streamline things to an intended end. ANything else is simply not dealing with the facts as others in the world of science have noted. This is no different than taking the term "medicine" and showing the history of the term and what it has meant - including the ways it has had DUAL meaning in one setting and MONO Meanings in another. We deal with the terms as they were defined by those who defined the fields the worlds sprung from...

And if avoiding where evolution was defined by either Asa Gray or Charles Darwin and seeing how the terms were used in their times (including in the debates they had) or where others in the field of Biological Evolution (including genetics) have defined terms in the same manner as they did, we're not truly dealing with evolution.


So again, if you want to deal with evolution, let's deal with how evolution is defined in TOTAL - not according to the definition you prefer.
 
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ABlessedAnomaly

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Gxg (G²);66846602 said:
We already talk on the way music or science evolves due to the concept of CHANGE gradually - the definition of the term. We have to deal with the terms as they are and not as we 'd wish them to be.
Gxg, this is NOT evolution ("evolves", for the purposes of this thread). That is a colloquialism in the English language for change. Throwing n these little color changes or music changes is NOT the evolution we are speaking of.

Before going into the "sake of argument", it needs to be established that one actually understands what others in a camp hold to. For evolution itself was never centered around the world of mutation. Also, Humans get very involved with evolution with plant and animal breeding.
It most certainly was and is. Darwin's whole theory of evolution is DEFINED around transmutation of species.

From darwinwasright.org:
Darwin published his theory with compelling evidence for evolution in his 1859 book On the Origin of Species, overcoming scientific rejection of earlier concepts of transmutation of species​

Darwin was out to prove that transmutation of species was not only possible, but was why the myriad of species exist today. His claim failed but the die hards won't let go; in fact they have begun to redefine terms that were used to define the in the 1850's and beyond.

Claiming that what micro-evolution describes to not be evolution is NOT the same as showing what other scientists have said evolution to be, seeing that evolution INVOLVES the work of natural selection and altering of genetic code. This is why mirco-evolution was and has always been seen as EVOLUTION - because evolution was never solely related to the concept of genetic mutation alone.[/QUOTE]
Gxg, this is part of the redefinition. In Darwin's work there is no distinction between micro and macro evolution. To Darwin, evolution was macroevolution. Macroevolution was simply mutation. Modern evolutionists have redefined what evolutionists in Darwin's day were talking about because they realize that Darwin was wrong and they need new ways to avoid a Creator. Language has changed, especially in the last fifty years, perhaps.

When creationists speak of evolution we do so on Darwin's terms: speciation. Evolution is the "creation" of a new species. Anything else muddies the waters.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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You never wanted to let it go, ABM. That's what we call pretense :)

Gxg, this is NOT evolution ("evolves", for the purposes of this thread). That is a colloquialism in the English language for change. Throwing n these little color changes or music changes is NOT the evolution we are speaking of.
And seeing that no one ever said the term "music evolves" was what evolution was biologically, one needs to listen better (IMHO) before jumping to conclusions - the point was and is that terms are used differently depending on the context, including evolution (i.e. the difference between saying "The bird species evolved into several others.." and "These humans evolved differing ways of combat with the tools" - both used in Biological Evolution and by Anthropologist - had a class on it where this was discussed directly when it comes to the usage of terms.

Ignoring the context others come from when a colloquialism is used to shape things makes a world of difference.
It most certainly was and is. Darwin's whole theory of evolution is DEFINED around transmutation of species.

From darwinwasright.org:
Darwin published his theory with compelling evidence for evolution in his 1859 book On the Origin of Species, overcoming scientific rejection of earlier concepts of transmutation of species​
A phrase about Darwin is not the same as QUOTES from Darwin, ABM. Even other Evolutionists have noted that when it comes to Atheistic evolutionists speaking on things pertaining to evolution that are not accurate even if they say "We support evolution."
Darwin was out to prove that transmutation of species was not only possible, but was why the myriad of species exist today. His claim failed but the die hards won't let go; in fact they have begun to redefine terms that were used to define the in the 1850's and beyond.

[
/QUOTE]As already said,

When you actually have some quotes from Darwin - and not slogans - you have a case. There are dozens of Biologists and Scientists who have spoken on the matter rather than going to websites - but that's another issue. You already redefined terms and have yet to give the definition as Biologists have said it to be - and thERE'S NO ESCAPING that simple reality when it comes to trying to distance micro-evolution from macro-evolution in an absolute. Micrco-Evolution has already been noted multiple times to be a matter of time when compared to MACRO-Evolution. Moreover, no one claimed natural selection was NOT present when it came to micro or macro-evolution - so thus, you are again responding with an argument no one was making.

Additionally, being focused on transmutation as a part of one's work isn't the same as saying that it's ALL of what one needs to be focused on. Darwin's first four "Transmutations Notebooks," which Darwin filled for two years while living in London after returning to England from the Beagle voyage, were a part of his OVERALL work that he did through the years - before moving on to other subjects. We also have the Red Notebook that Darwin wrote and others.

Gxg, this is part of the redefinition. In Darwin's work there is no distinction between micro and macro evolution. To Darwin, evolution was macroevolution. Macroevolution was simply mutation. Modern evolutionists have redefined what evolutionists in Darwin's day were talking about because they realize that Darwin was wrong and they need new ways to avoid a Creator. Language has changed, especially in the last fifty years, perhaps.
Again, I have Darwin's work - and it does little talking in generalities rather than dealing with the man's work. In technical language, Darwinism assumes that microevolution (minor change) is the engine for macroevolution (major transitions).

You've yet to even deal with what other evolutionists said who were Christians in Darwin's day - such as Asa Gray since he worked with the man (Darwin) and noted the need for a Creator. Again, Darwin discussed these ideas in correspondence with other notable scientific figures such as the geologist Charles Lyell, the botanists Asa Gray and Joseph Dalton Hooker, the zoologist Thomas Henry Huxley and the naturalist Alfred Russel Wallace. So If you're not going to deal with basic history when it comes to what has been said in Evolutionary history, then you're already doing a dynamic of redefining in order to keep a position you already chose to defend.

As it is, Darwin never said that evolution was Godless or directionless since in fact, a reading of the sixth edition of Origin of Species (not Origin of Life itself) proves that both of these assertions are factually incorrect. In example, Darwin in the sixth edition mention the Creator, and gives the Creator credit for starting the "laws" of evolution. The first passage reads:

To my mind it accords better with what we know of the laws impressed on matter by the Creator, that the production and extinction of the past and present inhabitants of the world should have been due to secondary causes, like those determining the birth and death of the individual.
.

Additionally, Darwin commented "He who believes that each equine [horse] species was independently created, will, I presume, assert that each species has been created with a tendency to vary, both under nature and under domestication[.]" He criticized this view: "It makes the works of God a mere mockery and deception[.]" Anyone reading in context knows that this was clearly a reference to the "works of God. Moreover, In the last sentence of the sixth, edition Darwin placed the Creator at the beginning of life on earth:

There is grandeur in this [natural selection] view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being evolved.

If we're going to deal with Darwin and the language of others, we can begin by actually dealing with what he said. A very basic place for review on the matter can be seen in Darwin Correspondence Project » Interactive Timeline (from here).

We know that langauge changes - but that doesn't mean that languages are AUTOMATICALLY suspect because it differs with what we wish. Darwin in speaking about evolution noted the ways that evolution takes place gradually and rapidly - thus making the terms micro and macro irrelevant as a point of rebuttal on your part. Gradual changes are what he observed on the Gallapagos Islands. Darwin never said macroevolution was mutation - it is upon you to show otherwise if making a claim without evidence, as if being bold in proclaimation. Speaking with arguments of emotion on claims of what evolutionists have done isn't the same as showing evidence as to what early evolutionists have done.
When creationists speak of evolution we do so on Darwin's terms: speciation. Evolution is the "creation" of a new species. Anything else muddies the waters.
[/QUOTE]Seeing that Dawrin did NOT speak on evolution in the manner you did, it is already a muddying of waters claiming via assertion as if that's true.

Creationists (from Old Creationists as I to Young Creationists and others) of all kinds speak on evolution as Darwin spoke on and speciation is one way evolution is but one way to describe it. Darwin never spoke on evolution as only being related to speciation.

If you feel otherwise, give quotes....
 
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ABlessedAnomaly

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Gxg (G²);66847848 said:
A phrase about Darwin is not the same as QUOTES from Darwin, ABM.

...

When you actually have some quotes from Darwin - and not slogans - you have a case.

...

Seeing that Dawrin did NOT speak on evolution in the manner you did, it is already a muddying of waters claiming via assertion as if that's true.

...

Really Gxg??

Sure thing:

from Chapter 9, Origin of Species by Charles Darwin
If then, there be some degree of truth in these remarks, we have no right to expect to find in our geological formations, an infinite number of those fine transitional forms, which on my theory assuredly have connected all the past and present species of the same group into one long and branching chain of life. We ought only to look for a few links, some more closely, some more distantly related to each other; and these links, let them be ever so close, if found in different stages of the same formation, would, by most palaeontologists, be ranked as distinct species. But I do not pretend that I should ever have suspected how poor a record of the mutations of life, the best preserved geological section presented, had not the difficulty of our not discovering innumerable transitional links between the species which appeared at the commencement and close of each formation, pressed so hardly on my theory.
On the sudden appearance of whole groups of Allied Species. The abrupt manner in which whole groups of species suddenly appear in certain formations, has been urged by several palaeontologists, for instance, by Agassiz, Pictet, and by none more forcibly than by Professor Sedgwick, as a fatal objection to the belief in the transmutation of species. If numerous species, belonging to the same genera or families, have really started into life all at once, the fact would be fatal to the theory of descent with slow modification through natural selection.​

from Chapter 10, Origin of Species by Charles Darwin
We find, in short, such evidence of the slow and scarcely sensible mutation of specific forms, as we have a just right to expect to find.​

Here is a very good application of the mutation of animals toward speciation, or natural selection:

from Chapter 10, Origin of Species by Charles Darwin
M. Barrande has made forcible remarks to precisely the same effect. It is, indeed, quite futile to look to changes of currents, climate, or other physical conditions, as the cause of these great mutations in the forms of life throughout the world, under the most different climates. We must, as Barrande has remarked, look to some special law. We shall see this more clearly when we treat of the present distribution of organic beings, and find how slight is the relation between the physical conditions of various countries, and the nature of their inhabitants.

This great fact of the parallel succession of the forms of life throughout the world, is explicable on the theory of natural selection. New species are formed by new varieties arising, which have some advantage over older forms; and those forms, which are already dominant, or have some advantage over the other forms in their own country, would naturally oftenest give rise to new varieties or incipient species; for these latter must be victorious in a still higher degree in order to be preserved and to survive.​

I can go on, Gxg. Darwin spoke of natural selection as mutations. He doesn't use the terms micro or macro; those are neo-terms to change the playing field now that evolutionists see that Darwin's theories will not hold water. There is no speciation through mutation or natural selection. Speciation was a creation of God.

You've got your quotes. Straight from Darwin's pen. I guess, by your words, I have my case. :clap:

I think I found my dog again. :boh:
 
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Gxg (G²)

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It's not a "want." It's a sickness; I can't help it :o
Anyone can help it - but if they can't, then they don't need to say that they are going to walk away when they clearly are not prepared to.

Really Gxg??

Sure thing:

from Chapter 9, Origin of Species by Charles Darwin
If then, there be some degree of truth in these remarks, we have no right to expect to find in our geological formations, an infinite number of those fine transitional forms, which on my theory assuredly have connected all the past and present species of the same group into one long and branching chain of life. We ought only to look for a few links, some more closely, some more distantly related to each other; and these links, let them be ever so close, if found in different stages of the same formation, would, by most palaeontologists, be ranked as distinct species. But I do not pretend that I should ever have suspected how poor a record of the mutations of life, the best preserved geological section presented, had not the difficulty of our not discovering innumerable transitional links between the species which appeared at the commencement and close of each formation, pressed so hardly on my theory.
On the sudden appearance of whole groups of Allied Species. The abrupt manner in which whole groups of species suddenly appear in certain formations, has been urged by several palaeontologists, for instance, by Agassiz, Pictet, and by none more forcibly than by Professor Sedgwick, as a fatal objection to the belief in the transmutation of species. If numerous species, belonging to the same genera or families, have really started into life all at once, the fact would be fatal to the theory of descent with slow modification through natural selection.​

from Chapter 10, Origin of Species by Charles Darwin
We find, in short, such evidence of the slow and scarcely sensible mutation of specific forms, as we have a just right to expect to find.​
[/INDENT
I can go on, Gxg. Darwin spoke of natural selection as mutations. He doesn't use the terms micro or macro; those are neo-terms to change the playing field now that evolutionists see that Darwin's theories will not hold water. There is no speciation through mutation or natural selection. Speciation was a creation of God.


You've got your quotes. Straight from Darwin's pen. I guess, by your words, I have my case.​
From ALL his works, ABM. For no one said he did not speak on the transmutation on species - but the issue was that he was never SOLELY focused on that when it came to evolutionary theory.

Darwin spoke of natural selection as the cause of mutations - and he already noted elsewhere that environment also played a significant role in what mutations arise (as you avoided earlier). I can do this all day, Bob, as it's not a problem getting the quotes if you're going to avoid them or deal with them out of context. He also noted in one of the earlier quotes where changes took place both GRADUALLY and RAPIDLY. Skipping over that will never win you an argument

Additionally, claiming "There is no speciation through mutation or natural selection. Speciation was a creation of God" is again WITHOUT any Biblical or Scientific reference - seeing that Darwin already noted that natural selection and mutation were systems that were created BY God. As said before, Darwin never said that evolution was Godless or directionless since in fact, a reading of the sixth edition of Origin of Species (not Origin of Life itself) proves that both of these assertions are factually incorrect. In example, Darwin in the sixth edition mention the Creator, and gives the Creator credit for starting the "laws" of evolution. The first passage reads:

To my mind it accords better with what we know of the laws impressed on matter by the Creator, that the production and extinction of the past and present inhabitants of the world should have been due to secondary causes, like those determining the birth and death of the individual.
.

Additionally, Darwin commented "He who believes that each equine [horse] species was independently created, will, I presume, assert that each species has been created with a tendency to vary, both under nature and under domestication[.]" He criticized this view: "It makes the works of God a mere mockery and deception[.]" Anyone reading in context knows that this was clearly a reference to the "works of God. Moreover, In the last sentence of the sixth, edition Darwin placed the Creator at the beginning of life on earth:

There is grandeur in this [natural selection] view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being evolved.

If we're going to deal with Darwin and the language of others, we can begin by actually dealing with what he said. A very basic place for review on the matter can be seen in Darwin Correspondence Project » Interactive Timeline (from here).

Seriously, You can do better than what you have so far, seeing that he had several works and none of the quotes you gave AT ALL say that evolutionary theory was centered solely on transmutation. If this is the best you can do for a man who had several works over decades, then you definitely are not dealing with evolution as the man noted - nor are you actually dealing honestly with what other scientists noted on the concept of evolution (such as Asa Gray). You can start with y Darwin to Gray on June 18, 1857 - where he notes the following:

Nineteen years (!) ago it occurred to me that whilst otherwise employed on Nat. Hist, I might perhaps do good if I noted any sort of facts bearing on the question of the origin of species; & this I have since been doing. Either species have been independently created, or they have descended from other species, like varieties from one species. I think it can be shown to be probable that man gets his most distinct varieties by preserving such as arise best worth keeping & destroying the others, -- but I [should] fill a quire if I were to go on. To be brief I assume that species arise like our domestic varieties with much extinction; & then test this hypothesis by comparison with as many general & pretty well established propositions as I can find made out, -- in geograph. distribution, geological history -- affinities &c &c &c,. And it seems to me, that supposing that such hypothesis were to explain general propositions, we ought, in accordance with common way of following all sciences, to admit it, till some better hypothesis be found out. For to my mind to say that species were created so & so is no scientific explanation only a reverent way of saying it is so & so. But it is nonsensical trying to show how I try to proceed in compass of a note. But as an honest man I must tell you that I have come to the heteredox conclusion that there are no such things as independently created species -- that species are only strongly defined varieties. I know that this will make you despise me. -- I do not much underrate the many huge difficulties on this view, but yet it seems to me to explain too much, otherwise inexplicable, to be false. ...

I must say one word more in justification (for I feel sure that your tendency will be to despise me & my crotchets) that all my notion about how species change are derived from long-continued study of the works of (& converse with) agriculturists & horticulturists; & I believe I see my way pretty clearly on the means used by nature to change her species & adapt them to the wondrous & exquisitely beautiful contingencies to which every living being is exposed.​



Darwin also speaks in regards to addressing the claim that others often bring up when assuming he was speaking about the existence or nonexistence of transitionals, as he was speaking of an "innumerable" series of finely-graded transitionals linking together all extinct and existing forms. As said explictly in Chapter XI of the sixth edition on page 342:

These causes [the imperfection of the fossil record, the limited exploration of the record, poor fossilization of certain body types, etc.], taken conjointly, will to a large extent explain why -- though we do find many links -- we do not find interminable varieties, connecting together all extinct and existing forms by the finest graduated steps. It should also be constantly borne in mind that any linking variety between two forms, which might be found, would be ranked, unless the whole chain could be perfectly restored, as a new and distinct species; for it is not pretended that we have any sure criterion by which species and varieties can be discriminated.


Moreover, as it concerns both GRADUAL (Macro-Evolution) and RAPID (Micro-Evolution) CHANGES that he spoke on,

Over all these causes of Change I am convinced that the accumulative action of Selection, whether applied methodically and more quickly, or unconsciously and more slowly, but more efficiently, is by far the predominant Power." Origin p. 43


"We see nothing of these slow changes in progress, until the hand of time has marked the long lapse of ages, and then so imperfect is our view into long past geological ages, that we only see that the forms of life are now different from what they formerly were." Origin p.84

"I can see no limit to the amount of change, to the beauty and infinite complexity of the coadaptations between all organic beings, one with another and with their physical conditions of life, which may be effected in the long course of time by nature's power of selection." Origin p. 109

"I doubt whether species under nature ever undergo abrupt changes." Origin p. 454

"The mind cannot possibly grasp the full meaning of the term of a hundred million years; species have changed, and are still slowly changing by the preservation and accumulation of successive slight favourable variations." Origin p. 480

The "accumulation of successive slight favourable variations, Bob. That was directly what Darwin noted - in line with the view of how evolution also involved changes building up on a micro level over time and leading to a gradual overall change. We can go further than (that if necessary, as Chapter 1 of The Origin of Species is devoted to documenting the existence of variability in populations and the effectiveness of artificial selection:

The key is man's power of cumulative selection: nature gives successive variations; man adds them up in certain directions useful to himself (p. 30)​

And of course, if you want to talk on quotes, I'm aware of where others against evolution often go to quote mine out of the original context. One of the basic places covering this is Quote Mine Project: Darwin Quotes :cool:

So thuS, you have YET to make a case at all when it comes to actually dealing with Darwin's specific words on the issue..

None of the quotes at all show where speciation was at any point the center focus of what evolution was described by Darwin to be. They speak of Darwin talking on transitional links and the use of natural selection - but NOT on speciation being the sole definition in evolution - nor do they deal with showing where Darwin already noted the Creator being behind the evolutionary process.

Evolutionary theory is a very complex reality - with other fields connected to it. One basic example is how Mendel's laws on genetics were later melded with Darwin's ideology to better deal with issues in science when seeing how the schools of though harmonized to better explain one another. Despite all of Darwin’s keen observations about how life forms change, he was unable to explain exactly how traits are passed from one generation to another—a key piece of the evolutionary puzzle. Consequently, those who were his immediate successors found answers outside the framework of his theory of natural selection. For by the mid-twentieth century, further work in genetics led researchers back to Darwin - with his work informing them and the result was a revised theory (“evolutionary synthesis”) that brought together research from many different disciplines. And thus, if we speak on evolution, we need to do so in all the stages it developed in since that is what is spoken of in the world of science today and was spoken of in the decades after Darwin.

I think I found my dog again.
You never lost or intended to lose it, ABM - as this has already happened before on CARM when you couldn't let the issue go because of it being close to you. :)
 
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Bob Carabbio

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I go with the Gap Theory. Derek Prince taught the details quite well.

Yup - I learned it as taught in The Southern Baptist Church in Pasadena, TX back in '63, and Prince taught essentially the IDENTICAL thing (Even to the "Tohu/Bohu" combination.)

I discarded a LOT of the initial Baptist propaganda over the next 50 years, but that one, and OEC seemed to be Keepers (unlike the "Ice Shield" Theory, and OSAS).

Life is long, and many things/perceptions change - and some things stay.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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alot of small changes can add up to one big change, ie, “microevolution” amounting in the long run to “macroevolution”.
Got ya - and to clarify on that issue, the aspect on how things go with micro-evolution and macro-evolution is that micro-evolution is a part of macro-evolution since macro simply shows the ways a species has become distinct over a large amount of time ...and the mechanics behind that are not necessarily clear-cut when it comes to showing how things build. Whereas micro-evolution can be examined to be within macro-evolution and a part of why a species has become distinct when changes build gradually on each other - but the reality is that there are many gaps that do not show how one species came to be and no gradual changes (bit by bit) can be examined.

But this is something that has come up often when it comes to humanity AND the ways it experienced macro-evolution when comparing it to other species...and yet it also has demonstrated micro-evolution and aspects of it when seeing its development.

According to mainstream science, people note humans are not apes because of the differences in SPECIES. Others may say there's negative baggage associated with it as a basis for not wanting to use the term--but for most, it's a simple matter of categorical correctness and what scientists have often noted when pointing out that man and ape are not the same..and noting that others trying to merge the two at any costs do not understand taxonomy or classification properly.

Humans are a type of primate, just as apes are a type of primate. They have never been seen in the same categories on all things and that's a basic of science that people in anthropology have often pointed out. The same goes for other species (i.e. baboons, monkeys, etc). Monkeys are not even considered Apes...as they're a in a group below them on the ladder. That often gets discussed repeatedly in Anthropology classes whenever make claims on evolution (be it for or against) that monkeys are apes...


For more reference:

As said best elsewhere:
Apes and Humans are two mammals in the order of primates that are both similar and different with each other. As a matter of fact, according to the science authorities and evolutionists, these two mammals have 98% exactly the same DNA which leaves only a minimal of 2% as their differences.

Apes
Apes are sub-divided into two sub-groups: the Hominidae or greater apes and the Hylobatidae or the lesser apes. They are typically omnivores, meaning, they consume plants and animals as their main source of food. But this is not true for some sub-specie of apes like gorillas that are herbivores or creatures that consumes plants only as the main source of food.

Human
Taxonomically speaking, humans are called Homo sapiens, which is a Latin word meaning all-knowing. Equipped with a logical reasoning and exceptional brain capability, humans have the ability to distinguish what is right and wrong. What sets humans apart from any other mammals is their reasoning and curiosity which leads them to the discovery of unknown objects. Humans are sexually dimorphic wherein males are larger than females in size and shape.

Difference between Apes and Human
Humans are the only mammals that can not breathe and drink all at once compared to Apes who can. The arms and legs of Apes are far more superior to that of the humans. Apes also uses their feet to grasps objects but humans lacks this ability because their feet merely acts as a balanced that is why human can stand erect. Additionally, the skin of the humans has very fined hair, except in the head, that makes human apparently naked while the skin hairs of the Apes are thick that makes them a good protection for cold..


Outside of that, there is an excellent series on the subject from the ministry of BioLogos (10 parts) called Ape To Man - YouTube..and for others worth considering:

Francis Collins, head of the Human Genome Project, is one of the main Christians leading in the discussion of seeing the ways that men may be connected with apes


And it is interesting to see how things can go when studying the Word. I am reminded of a time I was hanging out with my sister and we had a really good conversation on the ways that man developed...specifically on the many differing interpretations of creation and how secular evolution has never made any sense about the origins of man. At one point, however, it was brought up by her that it could be possible Adam/Eve were not the only creatures on the planet at one point --and it really had me pondering how possible this may be. As said best elsewhere:

Historical Views

.. it is possible that God bestowed special spiritual gifts on those who had developed the necessary characteristics. This historical event would endow the recipients with the image of God. We can say that Homo divinus was therefore created from Homo sapiens. With these spiritual gifts came the ability to know and experience evil—an opportunity that was grasped with tragic consequences.


This view can fit whether the humans in question constituted a group or a specific male-female pair. In the case of a group, we can imagine that God interacted with all members of the group and essentially initiated the relationship that exists today. If the initiative was with a single human couple, then that relationship could spread to and through their offspring as that subset of the existing population came to dominate.... It is argued that bearing God’s image is not a matter of our physical appearance but a matter of our capacity to love both God and others, to have dominion over the earth, and to have moral consciousness. We are to image God (see our question on the "Image of God"). In this way we might distinguish between Homo sapiens and the image-bearing creatures that we might call Homo divinus..
For a better description, one can go here to the following:

Some are of the mindset that man evolved, to the point where the Lord bestowed upon him the image of God---thus making it possible for him to share links with others in the Primate family and yet be distinct when his intelligence underwent RADICAL changes. And on the issue of man being related to apes, there'd be nothing wrong with this (In my opinion). Secifically, Under the Scientific classification of Anthropoids:
Sub-Order: Anthropoidea,
Infra-Order: Catarrhine,
Super-family: Homonoidea,
Subfamily: Homininae,
Tribe: Hominini,
Species: Human.
The other "tribe" under Homininae is: Panini, Species: Chimpanzees. Humans are different for other primates in that we don't have an insulating layer of hair - allowing us to control body temperature through sweating. AND Our females go through a menopause sometime quite early in life, while other primates don't.And this wouldn't be an issue for "Creationists" in any way. Dr. Porsche built the original "Bebe" Renault, and the Economy models of the early Mercedes rear engine vehicles - AND the Volkswagens (in 1939). When one looks at the "guts" of the three (and of others he did) one can see a distinctive commonality of design, and similar features among all three - making it clear that the same "thought process" produced all three vehicles. BUT Nobody would try to prove that a Volkswagen was a "Bebe Renault" - but could easily demonstrate that the same "creator" was involved in both of 'em.

Some Christians think belief in evolution undermines the uniqueness of humankind and the reality of evil and the fall....but I disagree. For the Genesis account portrays Adam and Eve as Neolithic farmers. It is perfectly feasible that God bestowed His image on representative Homo sapiens already living in the Near East to generate what John Stott has called Homo divinus, those who first enjoyed personal fellowship with God but who then fell most terribly from their close walk with God (Genesis 3.8). All those who disobey God and trust in their own wisdom in place of God’s law reiterate the historical fall in their own being (Ezekiel 28.11-19). I don't see anything wrong with advocating that God may've made two species that have similarities and may've indeed come from the same stock while choosing to impart one aspect of Himself into one of the groups to make them far superior/advanced than all others in creation.

There was actually an excellent article from BIO Logos I came across..and I thought it was intriguing when it came to discussing what's seen in Genesis and renconcilling that with Anthroplogy. For more:


clayman.jpg



What they offered seemed insightful and, IMHO, it does bring up an entirely different realm of conversation when considering Genesis and how God described the role of Man (as well as the Devil) and the story of creation all the way up to Genesis 6/the Flood.​

Although I think the story of Adam/Eve is literal, I think the interpretation of it often gets missed. Where scripture says "God made man from the Dust of the Ground", I've always been curious as to why many say its somehow impossible for the Lord to have made other species similar to man (i.e. apes, primates, etc) and then with man, breath his spirit into man....with the Gift of God's Spirit imparted being what set man apart.​


The text doesn't say that only having 4 fingers/thumbs is what makes man in the "Image of God"...as other creatures share similar genetic make-up on some parts & have the same body parts. Yet that doesn't mean that we're the same fully. If apes /other species and humans were 100% the same in all things, it'd definately place an entirely different spin on the film "Rise of the Planet of the Apes."​




MV5BMTgwODk3NDc1N15BMl5BanBnXkFtZTgwNTc1NjQwMjE@._V1_SY1200_CR90,0,630,1200_AL_.jpg


13121817622012.jpeg
poapes1_sm.jpg


dawn-of-the-planet-of-the-apes-official-trailer-0.jpg





Seeing the Film puts an enitrely DIFFERENT spin on what it means to be in a Zoo---and makes one wonder what would happen if indeed was the case that something was naturally able to develop that'd be against man. For animals have learned to use tools, as well as to communicate on high levels of intelligence/network...even using tools to do things. Though never on the level as man, there's no saying that it could not happen where intelligence/development grew enough where a threat to man's survival occurred. Of course, if that happened like in "Planet of the Apes, they I'd say Apes would be seen as another creation of the "Beasts of the Field" (Genesis 1:24-25)...and having to fight against other species evolving would be an extension of the mandate from God to "Have Dominion" (Genesis 1:26-31). ..with both connected and what's seen in anthropology with "common links"/similar actions kept in place...
 
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Jedi.Kep

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"Sadly, many others are more than willing to try to reinterpret Christ’s plain meaning in Mark 10 because of their absolute adherence to millions and billions of years. Be praying that Christians would see through this idea of mixing secular religious ideas like millions of years with their Christianity. It undermines the authority of the Bible, and in many cases it directly undermines the gospel itself."

https://answersingenesis.org/theory...astatesanoldearth-19503&utm_campaign=20141230

My two cents for the day.
 
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I plead the Fifth Amendment of refusing to answer these questions in order to avoid incriminating myself of being ignorant on this particular subject and MAYBE a few others. I haven't arrived yet but I'm heading there. (Wommack quote)

This is my position...

Ecclesiastes 3:7
A time to speaketh and a time to be quieteth. (Harryology Version)
And my library grows...

animierte-gifs-linien-3081_zps1a546cf0.gif



^_^

Good scripture....
 
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Gxg (G²)

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I don't think that using the physical world or science to interpret the Bible is necessarily a slam dunk either. I put Gods Word above what I see, hear, taste, smell or feel. Although God's Word itself says that which may be known of God can be seen in the creation. In other words, even creation speaks to the glory of God.

But leaving aside science for the moment, we have the issue of Genesis 1:2, which says the earth "...was without form and void". Using Scripture to interpret scripture we see in Jeremiah 4:23 this same phrase used again, the earth "...was without form and void". In fact, it is the same phrase in both verses in the Hebrew also, tohuw bohuw, [using Strong's], (although most other transliterations I have read say tohu v' bohu, in either case it is the same identical phrase in both places.)

Now, I believe Jeremiah is referencing the same event referenced in Genesis 1:2, however, leaving that aside for the moment, consider that it doesn't really matter if he is referencing that event or another. The important thing here is that the event Jeremiah describes shows that tohu v' bohu is a result of Gods judgement. This makes sense when one reads it in consideration of Isaiah 45:18, which states that God did not make the earth in vain, or, God did not make the earth tohuw.

This means that not only did God not make the earth in Genesis 1:1 the way it appears in Gen 1:2, but that some form of catastophic destruction occurred between the two verses.

Peace...
There had to have been things going on between "In the beginning, God created the Heavens and the Earth" and "Now the Earth was formless" - and when it switches to "Now the Earth was formless", scripture doesn't have to give all the other details on what occurred before hand....or what else he made. For God was not concerned with those details being given to us - nor was it our business to focus on it since our own story with Earth has enough problems of its own.....

I've seen the concept of what you were saying and have even noted it to be applicable to the idea that God was able to create other life-forms besides humans - a more controversial idea but one that I think can be supported rather easily from the scriptures. The concept of something like a John Carter of Mars or Star Trek doesn't really surprise me or seem out of the way with what God is able to do.



Could Christianity Accommodate a Genuine Extra-Terrestrial Reality? - Michael S. Heiser, PhD - YouTube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dpQbp79dk4
 
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ABlessedAnomaly

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"Sadly, many others are more than willing to try to reinterpret Christ’s plain meaning in Mark 10 because of their absolute adherence to millions and billions of years. Be praying that Christians would see through this idea of mixing secular religious ideas like millions of years with their Christianity. It undermines the authority of the Bible, and in many cases it directly undermines the gospel itself."

https://answersingenesis.org/theory...astatesanoldearth-19503&utm_campaign=20141230

My two cents for the day.

My thoughts on a quick read of the article.

First and foremost, my minor at university was in English (Creative and Technical writing). The author of this piece is Dr. Terry Mortensen (btw the date of the article is yesterday? The coincidence of this article at the same time as our thread is almost amazing. Would this kind Dr. be you? Or someone in this forum? Just wondering.) and throughout the article, such as the second section title, the author says things like "my response," "I asked," etc. But the first sentence in the section "Looking at Response 1" is that the response "was dealt a fatal blow by Dr. Terry Mortensen." This is the author. This is disingenuous. It makes it look, for those who didn't pay attention to the author's name, that another party in the debate agrees with him. Do you know that ABlessedMan agrees to this point? How did that sound? Odd, huh? Disingenuous, in fact.

Ok, to point. The article attempts to diffuse Response 1 by appealing to the number of days (or the minutes in a movie). If I focus on days of creation man's appearance most certainly is not at the beginning.

If we then expand focus to total time (the kind Dr. chose this) then it can seemingly be pushed to the beginning of time.

Well, if I choose man's total time in an Old Earth scenario, guess what? It is still at the beginning of man's time.

So Response 1 is not really a "fatal blow," as suggested. It is simply constructed.

Response 2 is agreeable for what it is. I have no issue here.

Response 3 is really another way to talk about Response 1. Oh well.

The biblical record is about God and His relationship with man. It contains what is important to man's redemption. For instance, there is not a whole lot of information about angels; what is there is how angels relate to man. So, as an example, if we look at the Gap Theory, the "extra time" between verse 1 and verse 2 is inconsequential. It doesn't matter to man's redemption. Thus, Mark 10:6 falls into place with man at the beginning of "the creation," not just the creation week.

Be blessed!
 
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Gxg (G²)

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If the universe is only 6,000 years old, not only would God have had to create the light of distant stars in mid-flight, he would have had to create the light of distant supernovae in mid-flight also.
If considering where the universe was older than 6,000 yrs, the concept of seeing supernovae billions of light yrs away and seeing things that appear to be VERY old would not be an issue. For me, believing in an Old Universe designed by God helps me to appreciate what can be learned of supernovae - and seeing his work. Of course, not everyone agrees - but I think it should be considered. Some places that speak on the matter:







As another noted:

The scientific community can debate within itself regarding the age of the Universe and the method of its origin. Once the religious community understands that the Bible does not put any limits on the age of the earth and physical Universe, the religious community can quit feeling threatened by the scientific debate about the origins and age of the physical Universe. The physical evidence so far amassed by the scientific community does not conflict with the Bible’s accounts of creation.

To answer the question in this report’s title, the earth is not 6,000 years old. The Bible clearly states in Genesis 1:2 that the earth and its oceans already existed in a darkened, flooded, destroyed state prior to the beginning of Creation Week in Genesis 1:3, so the earth’s original creation has to pre-date the Creation Week by an indefinite period of time. However, the Bible explicitly states that mankind and all life forms now on the surface of the earth came into existence in a Divine creation approximately 6,000 years ago during a literal 6-day week. Given the complex interdependence of life forms on earth, they had to come into existence together to survive in a planetary ecosystem at all. The Bible’s creation narratives are not discredited by scientific evidence. Indeed, the Bible’s accounts are affirmed by scientific findings and the geologic record.

When scientists assert that physical evidence indicates the Universe and earth are millions or billions of years old, that is entirely possible because they are discussing the original creation of the earth (the creation mentioned in the Bible in Genesis 1:1, Job 38:4-7, Isaiah 45:12, 18). Indeed, I think the biblical context of a Luciferian rule on the earth and the geologic/fossil record support such a conclusion. When Christian creationists assert that mankind and the current life forms were created in a six-day Creation Week approximately 6,000 years ago, they are correct because they are discussing the much more recent creation account which begins in Genesis 1:3. Scientists and Christian creationists have been talking past each other all along because they are discussing different creations of God on earth which are eons apart!

Genesis 1:1 is not describing the Creation Week account which begins in Genesis 1:3. Genesis 1:1 barely mentions that there was a primordial creation long prior to an extinction level event which caused the original inhabited and beautiful earth to become a lifeless, flooded, darkened orb in space in Genesis 1:2. Genesis 1:3 begins the account of how God re-created entirely new species during Creation Week’s “re-creation” of life on earth after the extinction level event described in Genesis 1:2. The original creation did not include mankind and it was a world dominated by reptilian, serpent-like creatures which went extinct in the extinction level event mentioned in Genesis 1:2. The second creation of life on earth featured mankind as the ruling species on earth and the animal world is now dominated by mammals, not reptiles. The extinction level event of Genesis 1:2 was the rebellion of Lucifer and the resultant war in the heavens (Isaiah 14:12-15, Ezekiel 28:12-17, Luke 10:18, and Jude 6 and 13).​
 
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victoryword

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The GAP teaching sort of "fills in the gap" for me (pun intended) concerning the problem of evil, the origin of Satan, and why Satan is so obsessed with the earth. While the issues of the age of the earth, dinosaurs, geology is secondary for me, the GAP answers those questions way better than "young earth" does.

It also avoids the Biblical problems one finds in "old earth" and "theistic evolution" whereas one could not take the six day restoration of the earth as literally true. These two ideas makes the Genesis 1 account a farce. The GAP avoids all of the issues found in the others and allows one to take the Bible literally and true without a lot of hurtles.

The Bible says:

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. (Gen. 1:1-2)​

The phrase “without form, and void” indicates a ruin and an empty wilderness. Did God, who made everything beautiful and whose work is perfect (Deut. 32:4) create the earth into a chaotic mess? The word “was” in Gen. 1:2 can also be translated “became” or “had become”.

Created by the Elohim were the heavens and the earth. Yet the earth became a chaos and vacant, and darkness was on the surface of the submerged chaos. Yet the spirit of the Elohim is vibrating over the surface of the water. (Concordant Literal Translation - Emphasis are mine)

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. Now, the earth, had become waste and wild, and darkness, was on the face of the roaring deep,—but, the Spirit of God, was brooding on the face of the waters, (Rotherham Emphasized Bible - Emphasis are mine)

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth, but afterwards the earth became waste and desolate. Johann August Dathe​

Bible scholar Arthur Custance translates Genesis 1:1-2 as following: “IN A FORMER STATE GOD PERFECTED THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH. BUT THE EARTH HAD BECOME A RUIN AND A DESOLATION, AND THE DARKNESS OF JUDGMENT WAS UPON THE FACE OF IT.”

According to the above translations, the earth was not created in the way that it is described in verse 2 but it became that way. In between verses 1 and 2 we find the fall of Lucifer (Isa. 14; Eze. 28), the dinosaurs, and the origin of evil as a whole.

Again, this is the only model that makes Biblical sense and is able to give a legitimate explanation as to wy there is evil in our universe without making God at fault for it or making Him the creator of it.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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I do not care about what Darwin or science. The word says that God commanded the earth and the waters to bring forth life. I believe it obeyed Him. The earth itself is infused with the power and is programmed with His word to bring forth life.
That is enough for me!
 
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MoreCoffee

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Old Earth because the evidence for age is overwhelming therefore pointing to a truly ancient planet and the evidence for a gap between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2 is so weak and so linguistically improbable therefore pointing to continuity in the litany of creation recorded in Genesis 1:1-2:3.
 
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sojourner4Christ

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The first chapter of Genesis records God's creative works during six twenty-four-hour days. But the first two verses record God's work of creating the heaven and the earth sometime before the six days of remaking the existing planet that had fallen into a state defined as "without form and void", apparently occasioned by Lucifer's sin, also involving one-third of the angels. So there is a time gap of undetermined length between the first and third verses of the first chapter of Genesis. Other passages in the Bible address this subject more definitively. Nearly every Bible commentary, whether ancient or modern, assumes the existence of this time gap. However, in recent years opposition has arisen to this historical Biblical doctrine. Modern opponents now call this wonderful Biblical fact "the gap theory" in an attempt to associate it with the "theory" of evolution.

This anti-gap theory is a new doctrine in the church that has come into popularity only in the last 45 years, corresponding to the decline in sound Biblical teaching and holiness. To not believe in a gap between Genesis 1:1 and 1:3 is not only contrary to clear Scripture, it is not in keeping with the historical positions of both Judaism and Bible-believing Christianity. There is no reason to reject the plain sense of Scripture on this subject except that which has arisen in modern times -- a need to prove a young earth in order to deny theistic evolutionists a time frame for evolution to occur. Only those influenced by the "Christian scientists" have been led away from orthodoxy on this point.
 
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The first chapter of Genesis records God's creative works during six twenty-four-hour days. But the first two verses record God's work of creating the heaven and the earth sometime before the six days of remaking the existing planet that had fallen into a state defined as "without form and void", apparently occasioned by Lucifer's sin, also involving one-third of the angels. So there is a time gap of undetermined length between the first and third verses of the first chapter of Genesis. Other passages in the Bible address this subject more definitively. Nearly every Bible commentary, whether ancient or modern, assumes the existence of this time gap. However, in recent years opposition has arisen to this historical Biblical doctrine. Modern opponents now call this wonderful Biblical fact "the gap theory" in an attempt to associate it with the "theory" of evolution.

This anti-gap theory is a new doctrine in the church that has come into popularity only in the last 45 years, corresponding to the decline in sound Biblical teaching and holiness. To not believe in a gap between Genesis 1:1 and 1:3 is not only contrary to clear Scripture, it is not in keeping with the historical positions of both Judaism and Bible-believing Christianity. There is no reason to reject the plain sense of Scripture on this subject except that which has arisen in modern times -- a need to prove a young earth in order to deny theistic evolutionists a time frame for evolution to occur. Only those influenced by the "Christian scientists" have been led away from orthodoxy on this point.

Welcome! Please vote!

Peace...
 
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