Are the rapture and the second coming the same event?

Postvieww · Dec 31, 2014

If you dont believe that just ask any one of the proponents of one of several theories promoted on this site. Ive been visiting this forum for a little while now and Ive read from those who believe Jesus already returned in the first century, those who believe He could come any day now and absolutely before the tribulation, and others of which I am one who believe He will return at the end of the tribulation. Within each of those groups there are many variations on details within that group. Lets face it, at least two thirds of those theories are absolutely wrong. How many of us have stopped to think that every single one of us might possibly be wrong on something. But no it couldnt be me I study my bible faithfully, read the commentaries, listen to my preacher, read all the books that promote my belief, so it couldnt possibly be me in error. How did the church come to this point? Im sure this is not what our Lord wants from us. I believe the larger problem is not that we disagree, but how some of us choose to do that. I admit Ive been guilty of a little attitude myself, but Im sure none of the rest of you have. A lot of us are really going to be surprised. What if when we meet our maker and he says why were you still looking I came in the 1st century. Or maybe those that look to be rescued from the tribulation find themselves facing the loss of their head at the hands of the antichrist for their belief in Christ. Or maybe those of us who believe we are going all the way through are surprised to be caught up just a little early. If you though Jesus has already come what do you say when he shows up? Then we have those who believe you probably arent going to make it because you do not believe it the way I do. Is it possible you are wrong on anything? Im sure youre not; it must be that other crowd.

Proverbs 16: 18 Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.
19 Better it is to be of an humble spirit with the lowly, than to divide the spoil with the proud.

Ive not always been where I need to be on these verses, what about you?

iamlamad · Dec 31, 2014

Postvieww said:
If you dont believe that just ask any one of the proponents of one of several theories promoted on this site. Ive been visiting this forum for a little while now and Ive read from those who believe Jesus already returned in the first century, those who believe He could come any day now and absolutely before the tribulation, and others of which I am one who believe He will return at the end of the tribulation. Within each of those groups there are many variations on details within that group. Lets face it, at least two thirds of those theories are absolutely wrong. How many of us have stopped to think that every single one of us might possibly be wrong on something. But no it couldnt be me I study my bible faithfully, read the commentaries, listen to my preacher, read all the books that promote my belief, so it couldnt possibly be me in error. How did the church come to this point? Im sure this is not what our Lord wants from us. I believe the larger problem is not that we disagree, but how some of us choose to do that. I admit Ive been guilty of a little attitude myself, but Im sure none of the rest of you have. A lot of us are really going to be surprised. What if when we meet our maker and he says why were you still looking I came in the 1st century. Or maybe those that look to be rescued from the tribulation find themselves facing the loss of their head at the hands of the antichrist for their belief in Christ. Or maybe those of us who believe we are going all the way through are surprised to be caught up just a little early. If you though Jesus has already come what do you say when he shows up? Then we have those who believe you probably arent going to make it because you do not believe it the way I do. Is it possible you are wrong on anything? Im sure youre not; it must be that other crowd.

Proverbs 16: 18 Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.
19 Better it is to be of an humble spirit with the lowly, than to divide the spoil with the proud.

Ive not always been where I need to be on these verses, what about you?

Being like Christ should be every Christian's goal. We all fall far short. Jesus said He never spoke except for what He heard the Father say. Then, everything He spoke was spoken with authority, as someone who knows what he is talking about. We can be sure He was never wrong. Again we fall short. I wonder how many thought Jesus was in pride, because He KNEW what He was saying was right?

How many on this thread wait to hear from the Father before they write?

iamlamad · Dec 31, 2014

n2thelight said:
Therein lies your problem,the restrainer is not the Church........

II Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

II Thessalonians 2:2 "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is [the Lord is just] at hand."

What Day?Our gathering to Christ,correct.............

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come [it will not be], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

Jesus Christ is not gathering anyone to Him, nor is He coming here to earth, except there be a falling away first. The word for "falling away", in the Greek is "apostasy". Jesus told us in His revelation to John, in Revelation 9:11, that "Apollyon" is one of Satan's names, and this name is derived from the word apostasy.

The word "perdition" means "one that perishes". Satan and only Satan has already been condemned to die [to perish] by God. Satan's judgment day has come already back in the first earth age, and he will have no part in the Great White Throne judgment, or any other judgment yet to come. He has already been judged, and sentence by God to death "perdition" [Ezekiel 28 covers this judgment].

Jesus Christ is coming back to this earth, but the saints of Christ will not be gathered to Him until the "son of perdition" [Satan] be revealed first.

Your whole premise fails because of not knowing who the restrainer is

Now let me help you out,you can take it or not,my hope here is that someone will...

II Thessalonians 2:6 "And now ye know what withholdeth [that which restraineth to the end] that he might be revealed in his time [own season]."

II Thessalonians 2:7 "For the mystery of iniquity [lawlessness] doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."

The "mystery of lawlessness" is the mystery of iniquity. "He who now letteth will let"; in the Greek should be translated; "He who holds fast [ketcho] will stand." The ellipsis, or "omission from an expression of a word clearly implied"; "There is one who hold's fast", instead of by repeating the verb, "will let". However, "katecho" is a transitive verb, and an object must be supplied also. So if the subject in verse six is Satan, then the object must be his position in the heavenlies [see Ephesians 6:12], from which he will be ejected from heaven by Michael [Revelation 12:7-9].

"Out of the way", in the Greek is "out of ek", or "the midst". It is the same expression used in Acts 17:33, and I Corinthians 5:2.

Many "rapture theorists" claim this one who "letteth" is the Holy Spirit, and they claim that when He is "taken away", then the Antichrist will come. By reversing the role of the characters in the verses here, and attributing what is Satan's to the Holy Spirit, you have a whole new doctrine called the "Any moment doctrine". This false doctrine is better known as the "rapture theory". It is dangerous to play around with a foreign language; and when the flock relies upon their shepherd for the truth, and the shepherd is assumed to be correct; in ignorance it is accepted just because he said it.

It is Michael who "holds fast" on to Lucifer [the Antichrist], and Michael will continue to keep Lucifer held until the appointed time, spoken of above. That time is appointed by God. Then at the appointed time God will give Satan the keys [authority] to release his fallen angels and they will be cast to the earth [see Revelation 9:1-10]. Let's take a look at the one [Michael] who holds on to Satan now.

Revelation 12:7; "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels," Michael [that is who the "he" is in II Thessalonians 2:7 and his [Michael's] angels fought against the dragon [another name for Satan] and his [Satan's] fallen angels.

Revelation 12:8; "And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven." This war took place in heaven, and that is where Satan and his angels are now; though Satan's spirit, and demonic spirits are all over the earth today. Now we will see what Michael does with Satan, in fulfilling II Thessalonians 2:7.

Revelation 12:9; "And the great dragon [Satan] was cast out [that is the transitive verb of verse seven], that old serpent [this is the role Satan played in the Garden of Eden], called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world [except for God's elect]: he was cast out onto the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."
This is when Satan will physically appear on earth as a man with his angels. This is the time of the Antichrist's coming, and we must know when this time is by when these events takes place, for Satan comes at the sixth trumpet.

Then the verse picks up where Satan is standing in the holy place. Satan's object is to deceive all the world, and have the world take his markings in their minds. God's Word thus says that Satan will come to earth and stand in that Holy place, before Christ will come and gather anyone back to Himself.

II Thessalonians 2:8 "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, Whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit [breath] of his mouth, and shall destroy [bring to naught] with the brightness [manifestation] of his coming:"

"The wicked" is better translated, "wicked one": What comes out of the Lord's mouth? It is the Truth. That is also the Word that God put in the mouth of Paul in this writing. Satan shall then be destroyed after being cast out, and also after standing in the holy place. After this is the time of Jesus Christ coming and gathering of His saints. There is no "anytime doctrine" here. It is in the course of certain events, and God lets us know clearly the order of these events, and exactly what to expect. In Matthew 24:15 Jesus is saying exactly what Paul is saying, Satan will come first and reign before the gathering of the saints.

Then Christ will destroy Satan.

None of this makes any sense.

Apostasia is a compound word made of of two Greek words:

Apo:

of separation

of local separation, after verbs of motion from a place i.e. of departing, of fleeing, ...
of separation of a part from the whole
1. where of a whole some part is taken (Strongs)

Stasia simply means standing as in standing in place, as in a stationary engine that does not move from one place to another.

Imagine a group of people standing together.

If APO - STASIA took place, some of the group standing would be moved to another place, and leave the others still standing where they were.

Indeed, Apollyon does use the same Greek word APO (Strong's 575) but apollyon means "destroyer."

Next, it is simply nonsense to say that Satan and the Antichrist are one and the same being when the Bible is so clear that they are not.

Finally, anyone to does not believe in a gathering (either the one Paul wrote of or the one Jesus spoke of) should probably get a new bible.

Interplanner · Dec 31, 2014

The Thess material was about the DofJ and the leader of the rebellion of Dan 8. It was about things so immediate, that some thought it had already happened. The temple it is referring to was that temple.

The rebellion was dramatically crushed, but the 2nd coming did not come, which was allowed by Jesus saying 'only the Father knows' and by the parable of the attentive servants, where there are 4 options to the return of the Master.

BABerean2 · Dec 31, 2014

Postvieww said:
If you dont believe that just ask any one of the proponents of one of several theories promoted on this site. Ive been visiting this forum for a little while now and Ive read from those who believe Jesus already returned in the first century, those who believe He could come any day now and absolutely before the tribulation, and others of which I am one who believe He will return at the end of the tribulation. Within each of those groups there are many variations on details within that group. Lets face it, at least two thirds of those theories are absolutely wrong. How many of us have stopped to think that every single one of us might possibly be wrong on something. But no it couldnt be me I study my bible faithfully, read the commentaries, listen to my preacher, read all the books that promote my belief, so it couldnt possibly be me in error. How did the church come to this point? Im sure this is not what our Lord wants from us. I believe the larger problem is not that we disagree, but how some of us choose to do that. I admit Ive been guilty of a little attitude myself, but Im sure none of the rest of you have. A lot of us are really going to be surprised. What if when we meet our maker and he says why were you still looking I came in the 1st century. Or maybe those that look to be rescued from the tribulation find themselves facing the loss of their head at the hands of the antichrist for their belief in Christ. Or maybe those of us who believe we are going all the way through are surprised to be caught up just a little early. If you though Jesus has already come what do you say when he shows up? Then we have those who believe you probably arent going to make it because you do not believe it the way I do. Is it possible you are wrong on anything? Im sure youre not; it must be that other crowd.

Proverbs 16: 18 Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.
19 Better it is to be of an humble spirit with the lowly, than to divide the spoil with the proud.

Ive not always been where I need to be on these verses, what about you?

If anyone on this forum has never reconsidered or made a correction in their viewpoint, then it is most probably a matter of pride.

iamlamad · Dec 31, 2014

Riberra said:
I have provided more than only one verse.

Revelation 19:6-10 (The Marriage)
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

So who is this multitude? I say it is the previously raptured church. You think it is the dead in Christ.

Revelation 19:11-21 (Jesus defeating the heathens assembled at Armageddon)

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Revelation 19
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2019&version=KJV

I have changed nothing.

This is certainly after the marriage and supper. The raptured church would have to be in heaven for the marriage, and they are, as the great multitude....the very same great multitude seen as a group too large to number in chapter 7. John gives us the proper order:

1. Saints arrive in heaven via the pretrib rapture. (Chapter 7)
2. Great multitude in chapter 19, in heaven.
3. The marriage ceremony takes place.
4. The marriage supper takes place.
5. Finally Jesus gets on his horse and descends to fight the battle. John saw no gathering at this time, because it will not happen at this time.

In your theory, the alive church on earth will missing the marriage: plain and simple. But in your theory they DO attend the marriage. The ONLY way then is for you to change what is written and rearrange.

I have changed nothing.I say that the marriage will occurs BEFORE the battle of Armageddon... which imply before Jesus gets on His white horse.

So in your theory, WHEN is the "gathering?" Since you insist (and correctly so) that it must be at His coming, then you have the marriage before the gathering by your own words. So you just proved how false your theory is.

By dying ... like all those in Christ who are actually in Heaven

Yet, Paul tells us that those who have died and are in heaven will come with Him. You have them coming after the marriage; meaning that ONLY those dead in Christ will attend. Do you think it is God's plan that His ALIVE (in the flesh) church will miss the wedding?

Here is what the Scripture say about the great multitude in Revelation 7 and whence they came (Verse 13-14) ....notice also that God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes ( verse 17). One would think that if they were raptured pre-trib they would rather be happy... IMO

Revelation 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

If God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes that means that the way they get in Heaven is surely not because they were raptured pre-trib

First, the days of great tribulation that Jesus spoke of will not come until 3 1/2 years plus after these are seen in heaven. All seven of the trumpet judgments must come before those days of GT that Jesus spoke of will come. So it is obvious that they did not come from THAT great tribulation that Jesus spoke of. There must then be another "great tribulation," and indeed there is: it is happening in half the world TODAY. WAKE UP! No saint can be killed twice! If someone has been martyred, they have suffered the greatest tribulation they can have. So they came from earth. That is exactly where Paul's rapture will gather from. Most believers today can see this easily.

OF course those raptured will be happy....until they remember who of their loved ones got left behind.

As i said above, explain why God shall wipe away all the tears from their eyes if they get raptured pre-trib.I would think that they would rather be happy.But obviously that is not what the Bible say.

Doesn't it seem funny to us that ANYONE in heaven should have tears? Yet is is true. Tears have nothing to do with how people got to heaven. Tears come because people arrive in heaven with memories still intact.

It seem that it is rather you who cannot believe what is written.I hope you will not lose your Faith in Jesus Christ ( 2 Thess 2:3) when the signs you are watching (four blood red moons)for your "pre-trib" rapture come and pass and you are still there.

I believe exactly what is written without any rearranging. I know the marriage will take place in heaven before Jesus comes to earth. Lamad comments in dark red.

Riberra · Dec 31, 2014

iamlamad said:
In your theory, the alive church on earth will missing the marriage: plain and simple. But in your theory they DO attend the marriage. The ONLY way then is for you to change what is written and rearrange.

The alive church after the tribulation will not miss the marriage because the marriage will occurs in the clouds....
1 Thessalonians 4:17

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

iamlamad said:
I know the marriage will take place in heaven before Jesus comes to earth.

If it was so,then those in Christ still alive and remaining after the tribulation will not be part of the marriage....
1 Thessalonians 4:14

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

This is the great multitude in Heaven the souls of those which sleep in Jesus ....that Jesus will bring with him to be rise -resurrected- ..1 Thessalonians 4:15 unto the coming of the Lord

1 Thessalonians 4:15

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1 Thessalonians 4:16

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The meeting in the clouds of those in Christ still alive and remaining with those who were asleep (dead in Christ)The great multitude in Heaven(Revelation 19) is the marriage of the Lamb. ...and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

iamlamad · Dec 31, 2014

Riberra said:
The alive church after the tribulation will not miss the marriage because the marriage will occurs in the clouds....
1 Thessalonians 4:17

Like I said, you change scripture to fit your theory. FIt your theory into Rev. 19. Show us between what two verses in Rev. 19 Paul's rapture happens. (This I have to see!)

Look again: Revelation's order is simple:

Marriage first
Supper next
Jesus returning to earth after these two things.

You CHANGED the marriage from heaven to the air. John's marriage will be in heaven. Most of the church knows that when it is time for the supper the marriage ceremony is OVER.

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Certainly it is true, but it will happen BEFORE and as the trigger for the Day of the Lord, which trigger will take place before the 70th week begins. This is the God given order.

If it was so,then those in Christ still alive and remaining after the tribulation will not be part of the marriage....

Since you push the rapture to the last coming, those on earth would MISS the marriage, for it will be in heaven before Jesus gets on His white horse. STOP trying to change John's order to fit your theory!

1 Thessalonians 4:14

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

This is the great multitude in Heaven the souls of those which sleep in Jesus ....that Jesus will bring with him to be rise -resurrected- ..1 Thessalonians 4:15 unto the coming of the Lord

Only in your dreams! By Rev. 19 the church (all those who did not get left behind) will be in heaven with resurrection bodies.

1 Thessalonians 4:15

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1 Thessalonians 4:16

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The meeting in the clouds of those in Christ still alive and remaining with those who were asleep (dead in Christ)The great multitude in Heaven(Revelation 19) is the marriage of the Lamb. ...and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Oh! So you have Jesus coming to get the church, taken them to heaven as the great multitude (right after verse 1 or just before it) having the marriage in heaven, and then coming again on the white horse shortly after His first trip down. Wow! How much easier just to follow John's chronology! The church arrives in heaven before the 7th seal opens the 70th week. They are already in heaven long before John gets to chapter 19.

BABerean2 · Dec 31, 2014

There has always been an attempt by those of the pretrib persuasion to separate 1st Thess. chapter 4 from chapter 5. Most of them want to avoid the phrase "day of the Lord", which is found in 2nd Peter 3:10 and indicates a 2nd Coming.

However verse 5:10 ties this chapter to chapter 4 through the word sleep.

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

The thief in the night phrase is also sometimes pointed out however the text clearly states that this applies to the unbelievers. The phrase is also used at 2nd Peter 3:10 and Rev. 16:15, which are clearly 2nd Coming passages.

The last desperate attempt is to claim all of the trib is the wrath of God and we are not appointed to wrath. Romans 5:9 also says we are not appointed to wrath. Christ took our wrath at the Cross. Rev. 12:12 states that some of the trib is Satan's wrath. When Stephen was stoned to death, was this God's wrath? No? God pours out his wrath on the unbelievers when Christ returns on the Last Day.

You can go over this with some people a million times, however they cannot let go of their unscriptural doctrine.

Jerico Miles · Dec 31, 2014

BABerean2 said:
The thief in the night phrase is also sometimes pointed out however the text clearly states that this applies to the unbelievers. The phrase is also used at 2nd Peter 3:10 and Rev. 16:15, which are clearly 2nd Coming passages.

The last desperate attempt is to claim all of the trib is the wrath of God and we are not appointed to wrath. Romans 5:9 also says we are not appointed to wrath. Christ took our wrath at the Cross. Rev. 12:12 states that some of the trib is Satan's wrath. When Stephen was stoned to death, was this God's wrath? No? God pours out his wrath on the unbelievers when Christ returns on the Last Day.

You can go over this with some people a million times, however they cannot let go of their unscriptural doctrine.

Do you know what it mean when the bible said Christ comes as a thief in the night? In case you haven't figured it out yet, when Christ comes as a thief in the night in Rev 16:15 right before the battle of Armageddon. He's coming in judgment to slay all the unrighteous.

This event does not happen at the end of the tribulation. The battle leads to the end after Christ defeats the antichrist and his armies. So throw out your argument that the rapture happens after the tribulation.

Christ leaves heaven before the end of the tribulation to wage war against the antichrist with 10,000 of His angels. There's no such thing as a post-tribulation rapture. Post-Trib means after the tribulation. Christ doesn't leave heaven after the tribulation. He leaves sometimes during the 2nd half of the tribulation to fight the antichrist. After He defeats all the unrighteous during the tribulation, He'll send His angels to gather His elects from heaven after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31).

Rev 16:15 is when He comes as King of Kings and Lord of Lords for the battle of Armageddon, pre post-trib.

So how do you get a post-trib rapture if Christ comes as a thief in the night (Rev 16:15) before the end of the tribulation? Does post not mean after?

Riberra · Dec 31, 2014

iamlamad said:
Riberra said:

The meeting in the clouds of those in Christ still alive and remaining with those who were asleep (dead in Christ)The great multitude in Heaven(Revelation 19) is the marriage of the Lamb. ...and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Click to expand...

Oh! So you have Jesus coming to get the church, taken them to heaven as the great multitude

The great multitude in Heaven are the souls of those who are dead in Christ that Jesus will bring with Him when HE will descend from heaven to be resurrected first.(The first resurrection) Immediately after their resurrection in their immortal body ...they will be caught up and gathered together with those in Christ still alive and remaining in the clouds to meet Jesus in the air .That is during this meeting with Jesus (in the clouds) in the air , before the battle of Armageddon that the marriage will happen.

And so shall we ever be with the Lord -HERE ON EARTH !-to reign with HIM in His Earth Kingdom.

1 Thessalonians 4:14

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1 Thessalonians 4:15
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1 Thessalonians 4:16

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Jerico Miles · Dec 31, 2014

BABerean2 said:
Is there a multitude of the souls of the dead in-Christ in heaven now?

Where is Stephen, the Apostles, those Christians fed to the lions by the Romans, and the thief on the cross?

Is part of the Church in heaven now?

No!

They're waiting in the graves like everyone else that died till Christ comes to resurrect them when He comes for the church.

Show me some scriptures if you disagree.

John 3:13
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

1 Corinthians 15:23
This will happen to each person in his own turn. Christ is the first, then at his coming, those who belong to him will be made alive.

Nobody gets resurrected before Christ. He's the first and no one else will be resurrected till He say so at the rapture.

Revelation 20:4
Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Both body and soul stays in the grave till Christ resurrects us, not sooner.

BABerean2 said:
Luk 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

That was a figure of speech. Christ was telling him he's being engrafted into the body of Christ. You take things in the bible too literal. The bible consists of a lot of metaphors and allergy terminologies. Unless you understand this, you don't know the bible as much as you think you do.

Do you think Christ really meant for us to move real mountains when he told you to have faith as a mustard seed?

Do you think Christ really meant to go back into your mother's womb when He said you must be born again to enter the Kingdom of God?

Do you think heaven came down to earth during that time when John the baptist preached to everyone the Kingdom of Heaven was upon them?

Jerico Miles · Jan 1, 2015

Riberra said:
The great multitude in Heaven are the souls of those who are dead in Christ .

That's wrong Riberra. Nobody gets resurrected till Christ say so at the rapture.

John 3:13
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

1 Corinthians 15:23
This will happen to each person in his own turn. Christ is the first, then at his coming, those who belong to him will be made alive.

Nobody gets resurrected before Christ. He's the first and no one else will be resurrected till He say so at the rapture.

Revelation 20:4
Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Both body and soul stays in the grave till Christ resurrects us, not sooner.

Riberra · Jan 1, 2015

Jerico Miles said:
Riberra said:

The great multitude in Heaven are the souls of those who are dead in Christ .

Click to expand...

That's wrong Riberra.
Nobody gets resurrected till Christ say so at the rapture.

Both body and soul stays in the grave till Christ resurrects us, not sooner.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 -
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return to God who gave it

https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Ecclesiastes 12:7

Jerico Miles · Jan 1, 2015

Riberra said:
Ecclesiastes 12:7 -
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return to God who gave it

https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Ecclesiastes 12:7

That's the Spirit of God that breathe life and created Adam, not your soul.

Why would God expand hell and created the Lake of Fire if everyone that dies can automatically go to heaven after death? If we can go to heaven, why would we need Jesus' gift of Salvation? Why must there be a great white throne judgement?

Some of you guys will twist scriptures to no end in order to discredit the bible and make it what you want it to say.

Ecclesiastes 12:7
before dust returns to the earth as it was before and the life-breath returns to God who gave it.

Genesis 1:2
The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Genesis 7:22
All in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, all that was on the dry land, died.

n2thelight · Jan 1, 2015

Jerico Miles said:
That's the Spirit of God that breathe life and created Adam, not your soul.

Why would God expand hell and created the Lake of Fire if everyone that dies can automatically go to heaven after death? If we can go to heaven, why would we need Jesus' gift of Salvation? Why must there be a great white throne judgement?

Some of you guys will twist scriptures to no end in order to discredit the bible and make it what you want it to say.

Ecclesiastes 12:7
before dust returns to the earth as it was before and the life-breath returns to God who gave it.

Genesis 1:2
The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Genesis 7:22
All in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, all that was on the dry land, died.

So I take it you believe in soul sleep,if so,what would you have us do with Moses and Elijah

King James Bible
And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

And what about these people

Revelation 6:9 "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:"

Revelation 6:10 "And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord [Master], holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth."

Now let's understand what Paul says

I Thessalonians 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."

The next five verses lay the foundation to what is called the "rapture theory". That is all it is, is a theory; and unproven idea. As we study our Father's Word; set aside all preconceived ideas you have about a rapture, and let's see what Paul is trying to tell the Thessalonians.

It is from these verses that the "rapture theory" was born. Let's see just how willing you are to bet your soul on it, when we take a fresh look at what Paul really said. Because that is what you are doing when you rely on it in the last days.

After Paul told the Thessalonians to live right in the community, and search their souls for sin in their lives, they were then to repent of any sin. Paul moved next to what happens when death comes to this flesh body. This topic is important to Paul, for it is the stabilizing factor to the Christian life. It removes the fear that comes from the unknown of ones death. Paul gives this information for one reason, and that is, that we not be ignorant as the heathen are. In other words, Paul doesn't want Christians stupid.

This concern is over "them which are asleep". The concern is over the loved ones that have died and left them, and their decaying bodies are out there in their grave. Paul is saying for us not to be sorry about those Christians who are dead and gone, for that is the concern of the heathen. The heathen's fear comes from their ignorance of God's word, and His promises. The heathen have no hope, for they believe it's over at the burial.

I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

If we believe, as a Christian, that Christ set the example for us; so that we will follow as He did, in dying, and rising again, then "to sleep" is to be dead from the flesh body. The Greek is a simple language, for it's structure allows one to be more precise. The subject in the frame of this verse is; "that ye not be ignorant as to where the dead are." If you're a Christian, you know and believe that Jesus Christ died, was buried, and on the third day arose and came out of the tomb. If you do not believe this, Paul classifies you as ignorant, and heathen [non-believer].

It was on the fortieth day that he ascended back to the Father. When Jesus ascended into heaven, all the souls went with him into heaven also, that had passed on, up to that point in time. The souls of some went to wait for that time of judgment, while others to the glory of God. Those that sleep [are dead] are not out there in a hole in the ground, but all Christians must believe that they arose to be with the Father, just like Christ did also. The dead are with God; all of them. "To be absent from the body [flesh body] is to be present with the Lord." Ecclesiastes 12:7.

And least we forget

Luke 16:25 "But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivest thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented."

Luke 16:26 "And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.' "

"Between us that over came, and you that did not overcome, there is a great gulf fixed." That gulf is so fixed that even though one side can see the other side, there is no way to pass between. We can't go your way and you can't come our way. Luke is making the entire clear that you set your course in this life of the flesh, and when your soul passes into the next life, there is no changing what you have done in this life. This gulf or chasm is from the Greek "Chasma"; It means "an impassable interval". The interval is of time and space. This is telling us that if you die hell bound and enter into that other dimension, there is no way that you can reenter back into this dimension again. What ever side of the gulf you are on when you die, that is the side you stay until judgment day.

This space is talked about by the prophet Ezra, or in the Greek "Esdras" in the Apocrypha, in the II Esdras 7:78-87. Though it is rejected in our bibles today, it was in the original king James version of 1611, until the American and British Bible societies removed it. It interfered with some of their traditions, and thus had to go. But it was revealed to Ezra by God.

Jerico Miles · Jan 1, 2015

n2thelight said:
So I take it you believe in soul sleep,if so,what would you have us do with Moses and Elijah

If you wanna play the copy and paste off the internet game, here you go. My information is about as worthless as yours. It only took me a minute to post all this. But at least the guy I quoted cited from scriptures.

The Bible says that "Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven" (2 Kings 2:11), "Enoch was translated that he should not see death" (Hebrews 11:5), and "God took him" (Genesis 5:24), and Moses appeared in the transfiguration with Jesus (Matthew 17:3). Do these scriptures prove that the three were in heaven (the throne of God) before Jesus was sent to Earth in the flesh?
John 3:13, "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."
These words were spoken by Jesus himself at a time when only Christ had seen God (John 1:18). And how did He know that no man had ascended up to heaven...the throne of God? Because he came from there! Therefore, what heaven did Elijah go to? What about Enoch and Moses?

Elijah

Elijah was taken up by a whirlwind "into heaven" (2 Kings 2:1) by "a chariot of fire, and horses of fire" (verse 11). Yet, over nine hundred years after this event, Jesus Himself said "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven" (John 3:13). Is this a bible contradiction? Did Elijah really ascend to heaven where God's throne is, even though Jesus said he didn't? If Elijah did not go to heaven, then where did he go?

Three Heavens
The Scripture mentions three heavens (2 Corinthians 12:2), not just one!

The first heaven is earth's atmosphere where birds fly (Genesis 1:20, Jeremiah 4:25; 34:20, Lamentations 4:19, Zephaniah 1:3). One of the Hebrew words for 'heaven' is shamayim. This same word is translated as 'sky' in the Scripture, as can be seen by comparing Genesis 7:3, "fowls also of the air," with Genesis 7:23, "fowl of the heaven." The word 'sky' and 'heaven' are used interchangeably from the same Hebrew word (Psalm 8:8). So the first heaven is synonymous with 'heights' or 'elevations.'

Here are other examples to illustrate the first heaven. Exodus 19:20 says the Lord was on top of Mount Sinai when he called Moses up there, and God describes Mount Sinai as 'heaven' (Exodus 20:22, Deuteronomy 4:36). Here, everything above the ground is called 'heaven'.

Another example of the first heaven is in Amos 9:1-3, where God states that at the time of this judgment, nobody will be able to flee away (verse 1), even "though they climb up to heaven" (verse 2). This "heaven" is defined in the next verse, verse 3, as climbing to the top of Mount Carmel.

Another example is where the Scripture speaks of the "dew of heaven" (Genesis 27:28,39, Deuteronomy 33:28, Daniel 4:15-33; 5:21). The first heaven, from which dew comes, means the atmosphere, where the clouds and the wind roam. Therefore, everything above the ground is called 'heaven."

Another Hebrew word for the first heaven is 'shachaq.' This same word for heaven (Psalm 89:6,37) is also translated as 'sky' or 'skies' (Deuteronomy 33:26; Job 37:18; Psalm 18:11), and as 'clouds' (Job 35:5; 36:28; Psalm 36:5; 68:34, Pro. 3:20; 8:28).

The second heaven is outer space where the planets and stars exist (Genesis 1:14-17; 15:5; 22:17; 26:4, Deuteronomy 1:10; 17:3; Psalm 8:3, Jeremiah 8:2; Matthew 24:29). Usually the term "host of heaven" or "firmament of the heaven" is used to describe this second heaven.

The third heaven is literally called "the third heaven" in 2 Corinthians 12:2. This third heaven is what Christ calls his "Father's house" (John 14:2), and both Christ and the Apostle Paul calls it "paradise" (Luke 23:43, 2 Corinthians 12:2-4, Revelation 2:7). This is where God and the heavenly sanctuary exist (1 Peter 3:22). This third heaven is also known as the "heaven of heavens" (Deuteronomy 10:14; 1 Kings 8:27, 2 Chronicles 2:6; 6:18, Nehemiah 9:6, Psalms 148:4), "The heavenly Jerusalem" (Galatians 4: 26; Hebrews 12:22; Revelation 3:12), the "kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 25:1, James 2:5), the "eternal kingdom" (2 Peter 1:11), the "eternal inheritance" (1 Peter. 1:4, Hebrews 9:15), and the "better country" (Hebrews 11:14,16). The fact that there are more than one 'heaven' can be shown by Psalm 115:16, "The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S." There are obviously two different 'heavens' being addressed in this one verse.

Since Elijah could not have gone to the heaven of God's throne, then to which heaven did he go? He was not taken to God's heavenly throne (as some imagine). He was actually taken into this earth's atmosphere, the first heaven. There could be no whirlwind in any other place but in the atmosphere surrounding this earth.

Why Taken Up?
What was the reason for this unusual act of God? Why did he take Elijah up into the atmosphere? Was it to make him immortal? No! The Scripture says no word about that! In Hebrews 11:13,39, we read about the prophets who lived by faith and died without receiving the promises. So Elijah was not to be made Immortal, for that would give him pre-eminence above Jesus. But what does the Scripture reveal as the reason for this removal? 2 Kings 2:3 and 5 has the answer.

Notice what the sons of the prophets said to Elisha: "Knowest thou that the LORD will take away thy master from thy head to day?" (Kings 2:3). Elijah was the leader of the sons of the prophets in that day. God had sent Elijah as His prophet to wicked king Ahab and to his son Ahaziah. Now God wanted Elisha to direct His work, as Ahaziah the king had died and a new king was ruling. So what did God do?

He could not allow Elijah to be among the people with Elisha directing the work now. That would have been the same as disqualifying him. God never takes an office from a man when that man has been performing his duty well. The only thing God could do would have been to remove Elijah so that another would fulfill the office. This God did do. When he was taken up, Elijah's mantle dropped from him and Elisha picked it up (2 Kings 2:12-15). And what did the mantle mean? In Clarke's Commentary we note that it was "worn by prophets and priests as the simple insignia of their office" (Vol.2, p.484).

The purpose of God in removing Elijah was to replace him with another man who would occupy Elijah's office in Israel for another fifty years. This work had to start under a new king, for Ahaziah had just died, and Elijah was already aging. So, as not to disqualify Elijah in the sight of the people, God took him away allowing the mantle which signified the office of Elijah to drop into the hands of Elisha. Thus, God preserves the name and office of His prophet.

Where did Elijah go?
This has been the perplexing problem to so many. He did not ascend to the throne of God, because Jesus said so! Also, notice in 2 Kings 3 and 5 that the sons of the prophets knew Elijah would be taken away by God in advance. They believed that Elijah was going to be taken to another location, which is why they were fearful that the Spirit of God might have dropped him "upon some mountain, or into some valley" (2 Kings 2:16). Elisha knew that God would preserve Elijah from falling, but at their insistence he permitted men to go in search for him, to no avail. And God did not say that Elijah was to die at that time. If he were, Elisha could have assumed his new office without the removal of Elijah, for we know that Elisha died in office after fulfilling his duty (2 Kings 13:14).

The new king of Israel was another son of Ahab, Jehoram, or Joram as he is sometimes called. The beginning of his reign marked the year of his removal of Elijah (2 Kings 1:18 and 3:1). During this king's reign, Elisha was the recognized prophet of God (2 Kings 3:11). In the fifth year of Joram king of Israel, the son of the king of Judah began to reign along with his father in Judah (2 Kings 8:16). His name also was Jehoram. The first thing he did to establish his kingdom rule was to put his relatives to the sword lest they should claim the throne from him (2 Chronicles 21:4). For nearly six years he followed the ways of the nations about him and did evil in the sight of God.

Almost ten years had now expired since Elijah was taken from the people. After this wicked rule by the Jewish king, God chose Elijah to write a letter and have it sent to the king! The contents of the letter are found in 2 Chronicles 21:12-15. From the wording of this letter, it is clear that Elijah wrote it after these events had occurred, for he speaks of them as past events, and of the diseases as future, Two years after the king became diseased the king died, having reigned only eight short years (2 Chronicles 21:18-20).

This proves that the letter was written about ten years after Elijah had been taken to another location by the whirlwind. God used Elijah to convey the message because he was the prophet of God in the days of the present king's father, and the son was not going in the ways of his obedient father, Jehosophat. This letter proves that he was alive someplace else. The Bible does not reveal how much longer Elijah lived after writing the letter, but it does say that it is appointed for all men to die once (Romans 5:12,14, 1 Corinthians 15:20-23, Hebrews 9:27).

A similar incident to Elijah's took place in Acts 8:39,40. Phillip was caught up into the first heaven, as Elijah was, and was transported to another location approximately 30 miles away. Another similar incident happened to Ezekiel, in which the spirit took him away (Ezekiel 3:12). The spirit lifted him up "between the earth and the heaven" and brought him "to Jerusalem, to the door of the inner gate" (Ezekiel 8:3). Afterwards, the spirit took him up to Chaldea (Ezekiel 11:24).

Elijah may not have been found because he was transported further away than the fifty men searched (2 Kings 2:17). And, as far as being taken into heaven where God's throne is, we can know that neither Elijah nor Enoch nor Moses were taken into God's heavenly abode, because Jesus said, while he was on this earth, that "no man hath ascendeth to heaven" (John 3:13), and "No man hath seen God at any time" (John 1:18).

Moses

There cannot be any doubt that Moses died and was buried (Deuteronomy 34:5-6). Therefore, for him to have been in heaven while Jesus was still in the flesh, Moses had to be resurrected from the dead, receive eternal life, and "put on immortality" (1 Corinthians 15:53). But the Bible is clear that Jesus had to be the first one to be resurrected to eternal life. 1 Corinthians 15:20, "But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept."

The Apostle Paul said Jesus had to be "the firstborn from the dead" and "have the preeminence" (Colossians 1:18). If anyone preceded Jesus, then he wasn't the firstborn from the dead. Since some people believe Enoch and Elijah did not die, but that Moses did die, then that would mean Moses had the preeminence over Jesus. Therefore, since Jesus had to be the first to be resurrected unto eternal life and the first to ascend into heaven and stand before God, Moses could not possibly have been in heaven while Jesus was on earth

Hebrews 11:23-28 talks about Moses living by faith. Now read verses 39-40, which say that Moses did not receive the promise of a resurrection unto eternal life and perfection. This should settle any disputes to the contrary. What about Michael and Satan disputing about Moses' body? Jude 9 does not say Michael won the dispute and then took Moses to heaven. Since there is no mention of heaven here, nor in the entire book of Jude, we should not assume he was taken there.

BABerean2 · Jan 1, 2015

The following verses should be like a stake through the heart of a vampire, to the doctrine of soul-sleep.

Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

1Th_5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Pastor Brian Schwertley does an excellent job of disproving soul-sleep and other unbiblical doctrines of the resurrection through his study on Full-Preterism in the link below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvPZmlmiDeQ

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BABerean2 · Jan 1, 2015

Jerico Miles said:
Do you know what it mean when the bible said Christ comes as a thief in the night? In case you haven't figured it out yet, when Christ comes as a thief in the night in Rev 12:12 right before the battle of Armageddon. He's coming in judgment to slay all the unrighteous.

This event does not happen at the end of the tribulation. The battle leads to the end after Christ defeats the antichrist and his armies. So throw out your argument that the rapture happens after the tribulation.

Christ leaves heaven before the end of the tribulation to wage war against the antichrist with 10.000 of His angels. There's no such thing as a post-tribulation rapture. Post-Trib means after the tribulation. Christ doesn't leave heaven after the tribulation. He leaves sometimes during the 2nd half of the tribulation to fight the antichrist. After He defeats all the unrighteous during the tribulation, He'll send His angels to gather His elects from heaven after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31).

Rev 12:12 is when He comes as King of Kings and Lord of Lords for the battle of Armageddon, pre post-trib.

So how do you get a post-trib rapture if Christ comes as a thief in the night (Rev 12:12) before the end of the tribulation? Does post not mean after?

Actually, we do not have to figure it out because Paul spells it out for us in 1st Thess. chapter 5. He comes as a thief to the ungodly, not to us.

He does not come after the tribulation.

He comes on the last day of the tribulation.

Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

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Interplanner · Jan 1, 2015

There is no sub-judgement day of God. If you treat it like that, it will never resolve. You will never know where to put your sub-elements of wrath and protection and some of them will smash certain people in the middle east, while there are perfectly rotten people in other parts of the world, relative to God's justice.

What you can affirm is that there is the coming day of judgement and there is justification in our sins only in Christ, for the Gospel was an eschatological event (that came at what they thought was the end of the ages) and it relates significantly to the day of God's justice, Rom 1-3. The "righteousness of God" (3:21) that was expected was not the wrath but the intervening of our Lord Jesus Christ on this same issue.

The OP question as such will never resolve.

Are the rapture and the second coming the same event?

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