Im wondering if there is anything close to a contemporary version of the Messianic tradition that is not bound to old law or fixated on it? I guess what I am asking is if there is a modern day christian denomination/movement/church etc that is focused on the new law but still actively embraces the Hebraic and Judaic roots of Jesus and Christianity?
Contemporary Messianic that is non-legalistic?
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A
aniello
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My, what self-contradicting constraints you do impose. I have heard there is one where they serve Ham and Swiss on mixed grain bread with extra Mayo. Don't recall where it was, though.
G-d gave Moshe the "Law", so G-d is the worst legalist of all, right? What does G-d know?
"But Paul said.................", blah, blah, blah.
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Sounds to me like he wants to attend Catholic mass, but call it a "qahal". Pure semanticism. Remarkable.
Reminds me of the debate as to whether Catholic mass should be held in Latin or the local vernacular of a given area. Quite simply, "sickntired" is adding a third option: Hebrew.
Reminds me of the debate as to whether Catholic mass should be held in Latin or the local vernacular of a given area. Quite simply, "sickntired" is adding a third option: Hebrew.
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I am not sure why judgement is being passed upon me. I am not criticizing anyone for their way of worship, I simply posed the question to see if there may be a place within Christendom that fits what I am thinking the early Christians more closely resembled or something that more closely resembles my philosophy.
There doesn't seem to my knowledge to be anything in between regular Christianity and Messianic Judaism, there is no half way house that is more protestant but focused on the culture and heritage of Jesus.
There doesn't seem to my knowledge to be anything in between regular Christianity and Messianic Judaism, there is no half way house that is more protestant but focused on the culture and heritage of Jesus.
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AbbaLove
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Seriously, it's a tossup. There are some MJ Christian congregations and some Christian MJ congregations, but they're few and far between. In other words religious prejudices will never be extinct. Based on my interpretation
there are at least two ways to interpret Col. 2:16.Col 2:16 NASB
16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day
This verse can be interrupted two ways. How do you know that Paul may have been referring to Gentile Believers who mistakenly thought it wasn't necessary for Jewish babies to be circumcised. Perhaps, Paul was referring to Gentile Believers that mistakenly thought it wasn't necessary for Jewish Believers in Yeshua to eat kosher food, observe the Feasts of the Lord, the Hebrew calendar, the 7th day Sabbath and other commandments. You do realize that your [assumed] religious prejudices can equally be just as repulsive to MJs, as are their [assumed] prejudices toward Christian Gentile Believers? Thus, the possible reason for the previous replies so far.
Ephesians 2:14-16 NKJV
14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation,
15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,
16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.
It would've been very enlightening if Paul would have expounded upon "contained in ordinances." Is it OK if we take this to mean both man-made ordinances within Christian doctrines, as well as man-made ordinances within Rabbinic Judaism. Of course we know that Rabbinic Judaism didn't yet exist at the time of Paul. However, most of the ruling Pharisees of that day were to some extent deceived and blind to their own Mashiach, the Son of Yahweh, conceived by Ruach HaKodesh. Likewise Christendom has incorporated pagan traditions and taken a very distorted view of RT to the point of misinterpreting/misunderstanding some of Paul's writings.
Considering the past 1694 years of the Mother Church of Christendom and the past 1694 years of Rabbinic Judaism ~ wouldn't pin a medal on either. And yet (IMO) without both the world would be in even a worse condition. Considering the soon return of Messiah Yeshua one could argue that the world has been pretty messed up for over two thousand years. In large measure that puts the burden of responsibility equality on both Christendom and Judaism for the current state of affairs in the world today.
Romans 11:1-5,16-22 CJB
1 “In that case, I say, isn’t it that God has repudiated his people?” Heaven forbid! For I myself am a son of Isra’el, from the seed of Avraham,[a] of the tribe of Binyamin.
2 God has not repudiated his people, whom he chose in advance. Or don’t you know what the Tanakh says about Eliyahu? He pleads with God against Isra’el,
3 “Adonai, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars, and I’m the only one left, and now they want to kill me too!"
4 But what is God’s answer to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not knelt down to Ba‘al.”
5 It’s the same way in the present age: there is a remnant, chosen by grace.
16 Now if the hallah offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole loaf. And if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you — a wild olive — were grafted in among them and have become equal sharers in the rich root of the olive tree,
18 then don’t boast as if you were better than the branches! However, if you do boast, remember that you are not supporting the root, the root is supporting you.
19 So you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20 True, but so what? They were broken off because of their lack of trust. However, you keep your place only because of your trust. So don’t be arrogant; on the contrary, be terrified!
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he certainly won’t spare you!
22 So take a good look at God’s kindness and his severity: on the one hand, severity toward those who fell off; but, on the other hand, God’s kindness toward you — provided you maintain yourself in that kindness! Otherwise, you too will be cut off!
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Shimshon
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Yes, there is. And they are located in the heart of Jerusalem.
King of Kings Community Jerusalem
Outstanding worship and teaching from a Messianic community with a full Hebrew congregation serving the greater Jerusalem area. I think this is a great model of what you are looking for.
If you're interested in more resources with this focus you can visit my blog.
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AbbaLove
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IMO, there are two important/essential requirements that King of Kings Community Jerusalem meets.
In my opinion every Messianic congregation should strive to emulate King of Kings as representative of the Living Word of the Renewed Covenant as well as the solid foundational underpinnings of the TaNaKh.1. The human overseer of the congregation should never go by the title of Rabbi as there is only one Master Teacher according to the Words of Yeshua, Himself. This person must carry an impartation/anointing. It makes little difference whether this person is Jewish or Gentile as all are one in Yeshua.
2. The Statement of Faith must acknowledge that the nine supernatural Gifts of the Spirit are for today's Believers and this congregation's SOF meets that requirement.
2. The Statement of Faith must acknowledge that the nine supernatural Gifts of the Spirit are for today's Believers and this congregation's SOF meets that requirement.
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aniello
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Im wondering if there is anything close to a contemporary version of the Messianic tradition that is not bound to old law or fixated on it? I guess what I am asking is if there is a modern day christian denomination/movement/church etc that is focused on the new law but still actively embraces the Hebraic and Judaic roots of Jesus and Christianity?
Well, your OP header implies some of us are legalistic. Isn't that rather judgemental on your part? It's OK for you to do, but not for us to do? How nice, how fair. Do what seems right to you.
I'm outta here. Fool's errand anyway.
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Shimshon I took a glance at the King's site and that looks very much like what I am speaking of. Too bad it's on the other side of the globe but I will certainly watch a service and learn more. Thank you!
Aniello I am not suggesting Messianics are legalistic, I did not mean it as a dirty word either, I have just been told that some Jewish Christians are more bound to the old law but by no means am suggesting that this applies broadly.
Aniello I am not suggesting Messianics are legalistic, I did not mean it as a dirty word either, I have just been told that some Jewish Christians are more bound to the old law but by no means am suggesting that this applies broadly.
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Shimshon
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They are completely set up. They stress the need for permenant community but realize the advantage of the tools of modern technology. They post all there services live and have an archive. They have a music/media ministry so they are very high tech and have music videos as well. They post their teachings too. It can not take the place of a real live community, and they know it. But they have given us the abilty to look inside theirs as they share their heart for Messiah! I think they have some American affiliated churches, I believe in Tenn, or the south. The founders are from Canada, and I believe the current pastor is the last Canadian remaining. They refocused as Messianic in 2006 and have exploded.
Here is why, I love this type of worship
(They are not speaking hebrew because they adore the language but because they are Hebrews/Israeli's)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnDcQglU-Dk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivux36tv-98
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anisavta
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Sickntired, I'd be curious to know what you consider "old law". That might shed some light on if you think that Yeshua abolished that "old law".
As far as King of Kings in Jerusalem- been there. It's Assembly of G~d Israeli style.
As far as King of Kings in Jerusalem- been there. It's Assembly of G~d Israeli style.
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To follow Yahweh's laws is not the same as following mans' law. mans' law can be legalistic. But Yahweh's Holy word is clear that they, who reject Elohim's law shall have evil brought upon them Jer. 6:16-19. Of course, I am still working my way towards full compliance of Yahweh's law. As far as finding a good place to worship that is a lot harder to do in our time due to the corruption of many churches. It is better to worship with a local congregation no matter what and if possible within a few miles of where you currently live. Even if the congregation meets on a day that you hold no significance to.
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How do you differentiate between YWH's laws and mans laws? There are 613 laws in the Torah, which are which?
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It is hard to differentiate between Yahweh's laws and mans' laws. But the Bible clearly defines the royal law versus the handwriting of ordinances against us. In more simple terms, it is referring to the Ten Commandments and the Law of Moses. "If ye love me, keep my commandments." John 14:15. In other words, the Ten Commandments are about loving Yahweh and loving your neighbor. James 2:8, 1 John 3:3-4 Keeping the Ten Commandments brings blessings to those that choose to observe them.
Whereas the Mosaic law is about ceremonial laws that also include a advice on how one should eat. The Mosaic law is mostly applicable to the House of Judah and to the House of Israel, whoever these people may be, but I am not sure that it is applicable to all groups of people. But I do keep in mind that the scripture does prophesy about a return to the Mosaic law. Mal 4:4-6. If one is in a position to fully observe the Law of Moses than they should do so and help others to do so. But your life is more important to Yahweh than strict observance of the Mosaic law.
This is the way that I look at Yahweh's laws versus Mans' laws that says, you have to observe this day in this manner or you are sinning. To observe a Sabbath, all that is required is to rest from work and to refrain from buying or selling from sunset to sunset. Now I choose to do so from Friday sunset to Saturday to sunset because I believe that is the seventh day. Whereas the Pharisee were forbidding healing of a sick person on the Sabbath. This is what Jesus was correcting the Pharisees on.
Whereas the Mosaic law is about ceremonial laws that also include a advice on how one should eat. The Mosaic law is mostly applicable to the House of Judah and to the House of Israel, whoever these people may be, but I am not sure that it is applicable to all groups of people. But I do keep in mind that the scripture does prophesy about a return to the Mosaic law. Mal 4:4-6. If one is in a position to fully observe the Law of Moses than they should do so and help others to do so. But your life is more important to Yahweh than strict observance of the Mosaic law.
This is the way that I look at Yahweh's laws versus Mans' laws that says, you have to observe this day in this manner or you are sinning. To observe a Sabbath, all that is required is to rest from work and to refrain from buying or selling from sunset to sunset. Now I choose to do so from Friday sunset to Saturday to sunset because I believe that is the seventh day. Whereas the Pharisee were forbidding healing of a sick person on the Sabbath. This is what Jesus was correcting the Pharisees on.
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annier
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I am not sure what handwriting of ordinances means to you. But to me it means the charges written in Greek, Latin and Hebrew as found here.
Lu 23:38 And a superscription also was written over him in letters of Greek, and Latin, and Hebrew, THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.
Joh 19:20 This title then read many of the Jews: for the place where Jesus was crucified was nigh to the city: and it was written in Hebrew, and Greek, and Latin.
It seems you are saying the law of Moses is not God's law? But, It is not clear.
Advice on how to eat? It was God's law given to Israel by the hand of Moses was it not?
God seemed pretty serious about what He commanded.Lev 17:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
2 Speak unto Aaron, and unto his sons, and unto all the children of Israel, and say unto them; This is the thing which the LORD hath commanded, saying,
3 What man soever there be of the house of Israel, that killeth an ox, or lamb, or goat, in the camp, or that killeth it out of the camp,
4 And bringeth it not unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, to offer an offering unto the LORD before the tabernacle of the LORD; blood shall be imputed unto that man; he hath shed blood; and that man shall be cut off from among his people:
5 To the end that the children of Israel may bring their sacrifices, which they offer in the open field, even that they may bring them unto the LORD, unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, unto the priest, and offer them for peace offerings unto the LORD.
6 And the priest shall sprinkle the blood upon the altar of the LORD at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and burn the fat for a sweet savour unto the LORD.
7 And they shall no more offer their sacrifices unto devils, after whom they have gone a whoring. This shall be a statute for ever unto them throughout their generations.
8 And thou shalt say unto them, Whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers which sojourn among you, that offereth a burnt offering or sacrifice,
9 And bringeth it not unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, to offer it unto the LORD; even that man shall be cut off from among his people.
10 And whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, that eateth any manner of blood; I will even set my face against that soul that eateth blood, and will cut him off from among his people.
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I don't see the point of being "Messianic" or "Hebrew Roots" without the Torah.
What exactly does it MEAN to be these things, but not keeping Torah ?
What are you left with ?
(I mean, besides language.)
What exactly does it MEAN to be these things, but not keeping Torah ?
What are you left with ?
(I mean, besides language.)
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I think the 10 commandments are God's laws but I think the stuff in Leviticus and Deuteronomy are likely hebraic customs and laws that were people made.
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OK. What does that (accepting the 10 commandments) have to do with being Messianic or Hebrew Roots ?
Besides the Shabbat commandment, all Christians likely will say they accept the ten commandments.
Do you keep Shabbat ?
The only truly distinct thing about the ten commandments is the Shabbat, which naturally connects into the rest of the Hebrew calendar and traditions and Rabbinical teachings.
Look, you can't even know when the day begins and ends without the Rabbis.
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