Should Christians support Israel?

GreatistheLord · Dec 27, 2014

BornAgainBrian said:
You leap right into "You're calling God a liar"? There are other ways to disagree than to insult my faith in God's fidelity. Where have I denied an everlasting promise?

Quotes dont work when you misquote.

BornAgainBrian · Dec 27, 2014

GreatistheLord said:
Quotes dont work when you misquote.

Rewording leads to you ignoring everything else? The point doesn't change.

Sammy-San · Dec 27, 2014

GreatistheLord said:
God promised land to abrahams decendants, which part of jesus fullfilled that? Land is where people live.

Some studies have shown Palestinians are also Abrahams descendants too. They be culturally arab and not Jewish because of invasions, but theyre still related to the ancient Hebrews. "Jews" Are Not Descendants of Abraham

. Dr. Oppenheim even found that some of the Palestinians have the chromosomes proving they are “Cohen,” related to the ancient Israelites who worked in the Synagogue and Temple.

read this study too. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2000/05/000509003653.htm

TheDag · Dec 28, 2014

Zeek said:
Without exception all of my Jewish friends (and I have lots) view Kaufman as a traitor to his people...quoting him is like quoting Naturei Karta.

Supporting Israel doesn't mean agreeing with every policy without question, or believing Israel can do no wrong...it means standing side by side with Israel and defending her from the pernicious lies and half-truths that the general public are fed day in day out...it means being a true friend that desires the best for Israel and the Jewish people, and as a Christian this desire stems from the revealed heart of G-d towards His people....

Supporting Israel means refusing to adopt the lying narrative of Israels enemies and to condemn Israel as racist, apartheid, expansionist and whatever other mud can be slung...it means having a modicum of discernment that can see all the boycotting left-wing Marxist wannabe anarchists are merely an unwitting tool in the hands of Islamic extremists whose soul desire is to destroy Israel and turn it into yet another Moslem State.

Above all supporting Israel means coming in line with G-ds desire for His people, and praying that they might know their Messiah, our Saviour.

So supporting Israel means being biased. I didn't see people standing up against the lies we were fed for years about Israels enemies yet now those same people are complaining when lies are being fed about Israel. I call that double standards and do not see that as good christian behaviour.

Vanellus · Dec 28, 2014

Nonetheless, Israel's tenancy in the Land is conditional. The Land is gifted to the Israelites with the provision that they live up to certain moral and religious standards (Leviticus 18:26). Exile is threatened if these conditions are not met (Leviticus 26:27-35).

The connection between behaviour and residency rights extends to non-Jews as well. The indigenous peoples of Canaan lost their claim to the Land because of their ethical failings (Leviticus 18:24), and the Rabbis decreed that non-idolatrous gentiles (i.e. ethical ones) were permitted to reside in the Land, as long as they accepted the seven Noahide commandments, often considered a universal moral law.

Though the Israelites will reside in the Land, God retains ownership. This is highlighted in the many agricultural laws commanded to the Israelites in the Torah. The requirement to leave the corner of ones field for the poor (pe'ah), abstain from eating the fruits of a new tree (orlah), and let the land lie fallow every seventh year (shemitta)--among other similar laws--all stress God's right to divvy out produce as God sees fit. Additionally, all sales and transfers of land were revoked in the Jubilee year, a rule that emphasized that only God has the power to bequeath the Land permanently.

33Listen to another parable: There was a landowner who planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a winepress in it and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and moved to another place. 34When the harvest time approached, he sent his servants to the tenants to collect his fruit. 35The tenants seized his servants; they beat one, killed another, and stoned a third. 36Then he sent other servants to them, more than the first time, and the tenants treated them the same way. 37Last of all, he sent his son to them. They will respect my son, he said. 38But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, This is the heir. Come, lets kill him and take his inheritance. 39So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.
40Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants? 41He will bring those wretches to a wretched end, they replied, and he will rent the vineyard to other tenants, who will give him his share of the crop at harvest time.
42Jesus said to them, Have you never read in the Scriptures:  The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone; the Lord has done this,and it is marvelous in our eyes ?
43Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. 44Anyone who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; anyone on whom it falls will be crushed.

Vanellus · Dec 28, 2014

from thomaswilliamson.net

Before we can embrace the Christian Zionist ideology and agenda, we ought to examine the Word of God, to resolve this all-important question: Was God's land grant to Israel based on an unconditional covenant, or were the terms of that covenant conditional on Israel's obedience to the Lord?

GENESIS 17:8, 14: "And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God. . . . And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." The covenant and land grant were conditional on being circumcised.

EXODUS 19:5: Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine." The covenant is conditional on the obedience of the Israelites.

NUMBERS 14:30: "Doubtless ye shall not come into the land, concerning which I sware to make you dwell therein. . . " Because of Israel's disobedience, God delayed their entry into the land for almost 40 years until the generation of the rebels had died. If the possession of the land was unconditional, the Israelites would have been able to enter Canaan immediately, in spite of their disobedience. This proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that Israel's possession of the land was not unconditional.

DEUTERONOMY 4:25-26: "When thou shalt beget children, and children's children, and ye shall have remained long in the land, and shall corrupt yourselves, and make a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, and shall do evil in the sight of the LORD thy God, to provoke him to anger: I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it: ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed." Possession of the land is conditional, and would be lost if the people disobey and/or commit idolatry.

DEUTERONOMY 7:12-13: "Wherefore it shall come to pass, if ye hearken to these judgments, and keep, and do them, that the LORD thy God shall keep unto thee the covenant and the mercy which he sware unto thy fathers: And he will love thee, and bless thee, and multiply thee: he will also bless the fruit of thy womb, and the fruit of thy land, thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep, in the land which he sware unto thy fathers to give thee." Possession of the land is conditional on hearkening to God's judgments. This passage, and other covenant passages such as Deuteronomy 11, are full of "ifs" - how can the covenant be considered unconditional if it is totally dependent on the obedience of the Israelites? And why would God make a covenant with His people that includes no incentives for good behavior and no sanctions for disobedience?

DEUTERONOMY 11:16-17: "Take heed to yourselves, that your heart be not deceived, and ye turn aside, and serve other gods, and worship them: And then the LORD'S wrath be kindled against you, and he shut up the heaven, that there be no rain, and that the land yield not her fruit; and lest ye perish quickly from off the good land which the LORD giveth you." See also Deuteronomy 11:31-32: "For ye shall pass over Jordan to go in to possess the land which the LORD your God giveth you, and ye shall possess it, and dwell therein. And ye shall observe to do all the statutes and judgments which I set before you this day." "Possess" and "observe" go together as a package deal - if the Jews are to continue to possess the land, they must observe God's statutes. If they fail to do so, they will be removed from the land.

JOSHUA 23:15-16: "Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you. When ye have transgressed the covenant of the LORD your God, which he commanded you, and have gone and served other gods, and bowed yourselves to them; then shall the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and ye shall perish quickly from off the good land which he hath given unto you." Possession of the land is conditional on keeping the covenant.

1 KINGS 9:6-9: "But if ye shall at all turn from following me, ye or your children, and will not keep my commandments and my statutes which I have set before you, but go and serve other gods, and worship them: Then will I cut off Israel out of the land which I have given them: and this house, which I have hallowed for my name, will I cast out of my sight: and Israel shall be a proverb and a byword among all people: And at this house, which is high, every one that passeth by it shall be astonished, and shall hiss: and they shall say, Why hath the LORD done thus unto this land, and to this house? And they shall answer, Because they forsook the LORD their God, who brought forth their fathers out of the land of Egypt, and have taken hold upon other gods, and have worshipped them, and served them: therefore hath the LORD brought upon them all this evil." Possession of the land is conditional on keeping God's commandments. See also parallel passage in 2 Chronicles 7:19-22, "Then will I pluck them up by the roots out of my land which I have given them." Ultimately, the land is not really Israel's land - it is God's land.

2 KINGS 21:8-9: "Neither will I make the feet of Israel move any more out of the land which I gave their fathers; only if they will observe to do according to all that I have commanded them, and according to all the law that my servant Moses commanded them. But they hearkened not: and Manasseh seduced them to do more evil than did the nations whom the LORD destroyed before the children of Israel." Possession of the land is conditional on keeping the law of Moses.

EZRA 9:12, 14: "Now therefore give not your daughters unto their sons, neither take their daughters unto your sons, nor seek their peace or their wealth for ever: that ye may be strong, and eat the good of the land, and leave it for an inheritance to your children for ever. . . . Should we again break the commandments, and join in affinity with the people of these abominations? Wouldest not thou be angry with us till thou hadst consumed us, so that there should be no remnant nor escaping? Possession of the land is conditional on not intermarrying with the heathen.

NEHEMIAH 1:8-9: "Remember, I beseech thee, the word that thou commandedst thy servant Moses, saying, If ye transgress, I will scatter you abroad among the nations: but if ye turn unto me, and keep my commandments, and do them; though there were of you cast out unto the uttermost part of the heaven, yet will I gather them from thence, and will bring them unto the place that I have chosen to set my name there." Possession of the land, and restoration after being removed from the land, are both conditional on keeping the law of Moses. At this time, 445 BC, the Jews were in the process of being restored to the land after being taken into captivity in 586 BC. Their restoration to the land was conditional upon obedience.

JEREMIAH 7:3-6: "Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, Amend your ways and your doings, and I will cause you to dwell in this place. Trust ye not in lying words, saying, The temple of the LORD, The temple of the LORD, The temple of the LORD, are these. For if ye throughly amend your ways and your doings; if ye throughly execute judgment between a man and his neighbour; If ye oppress not the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, and shed not innocent blood in this place, neither walk after other gods to your hurt: Then will I cause you to dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers, for ever and ever." The promise that the Jews would dwell in Palestine "forever" is clearly conditional on their making a drastic change in their moral condition. See also Jeremiah 9:13-16: "Because they have forsaken my law . . . I will scatter them also among the heathen, whom neither they nor their fathers have known: and I will send the sword after them, till I have consumed them."

JEREMIAH 44:22: "So that the LORD could no longer bear, because of the evil of your doings, and because of the abominations which ye have committed; therefore is your land a desolation, and an astonishment, and a curse, without an inhabitant, as at this day." This was spoken by Jeremiah to Jewish refugees in Egypt, shortly after all the Jews in Palestine had been ejected from the land as a result of the Babylonian conquest in 586 BC. If the land grant was unconditional, why would God break His promise and kick His people out of the land as He clearly did in 586 BC? Or could it be that God never made such an unconditional promise, and that His covenant with the Jews was conditional?

LAMENTATIONS 1:10: "The adversary hath spread out his hand upon all her pleasant things: for she hath seen that the heathen entered into her sanctuary, whom thou didst command that they should not enter into thy congregation." The promise of God that the heathen would not enter into and destroy the sanctuary in Jerusalem was conditional upon Judah's obedience. Judah did not obey God, and as a result, the adversary was allowed to conquer Jerusalem and lay it waste in 586 BC.

EZEKIEL 33:24-26: "Son of man, they that inhabit those wastes of the land of Israel speak, saying, Abraham was one, and he inherited the land: but we are many; the land is given us for inheritance. Wherefore say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Ye eat with the blood, and lift up your eyes toward your idols, and shed blood: and shall ye possess the land? Ye stand upon your sword, ye work abomination, and ye defile every one his neighbour's wife: and shall ye possess the land?" This was spoken immediately after Jerusalem was destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar in 586 BC and the people taken away into captivity. God ordained that Nebuchadnezzar should take the Jews into captivity away from their land. This proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that Israel's possession of the land of Israel was not unconditional.

MATTHEW 21:43: "Therefore I say unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof." See also Matthew 23:38, "Behold, your house is left unto you desolate." Within one generation after Christ spoke these words to the Pharisees, the Romans came in 70 AD and destroyed Jerusalem and its inhabitants, as Christ had predicted (Matthew 23:35-36, Luke 19:41-44). Most of the surviving Jews were removed from Palestine, by Titus and by Emperor Hadrian 70 years later. The "kingdom" and "house" of the Jews, which included the land grant, were taken away from them because they rejected the Law of Moses, especially Deuteronomy 18:15-19, which commanded them to receive their Messiah when He came. Instead of receiving Him, they crucified Him. The Kingdom which was rejected by the unregenerate Jews was given instead to the Jewish and Gentile Christian believers, and the land promise to them is now heavenly in nature, not earthly (Galatians 4:25-26, Hebrews 11:13-16).

CONCLUSION: Since the land promise to the Jews was conditional upon their obedience, and they completely failed to obey God or keep the covenant with God, therefore there is no duty upon Christians to help modern-day Jews to take Palestine away from the Arabs, nor to prevent them from giving back to the Arabs land that they have already occupied (such as the Gaza Strip).

As Christians we should support no action to dispossess any lawful owner of land in Palestine, whether Jew or Arab, who has paid for his land, and we should respect all lawful property rights of the Palestinians and Jews, just we would respect the rights of property owners anywhere else in the world.

Christian Zionism, as a result of its rejection of Bible truth with regard to the conditional nature of God's covenant with Israel, has veered into serious theological error and has become an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity.

Christian Zionists preach and practice racial bigotry toward Palestinians and other peoples of Middle Eastern ancestry. They teach that it is right for Israeli settlers to steal from the Arabs and that it is the duty of Christians to help them steal.

They heap curses on American Presidents and Israeli Prime Ministers who try to find a peaceful solution to the Israeli-Palestinian dispute. They oppose all peace plans for Israel, because their bloodthirsty, fanciful "end of days" scenario requires that two-thirds of all the Jews in the world be slaughtered in a final Battle of Armageddon. For these reasons, Christian Zionism has always been rejected and repudiated by intelligent, right-thinking Christians and Jews.

BornAgainBrian · Dec 28, 2014

While I see your point, all peace plans have involved taking more land from Middle Eastern Jews, which is already crazy limited, and giving more land to Middle Eastern Moslems, which is already abundant.

When you boil it all down, the world always wants to give the Jews the raw deal. I can understand why some want to help.

Vanellus · Dec 28, 2014

BornAgainBrian said:
While I see your point, all peace plans have involved taking more land from Middle Eastern Jews, which is already crazy limited, and giving more land to Middle Eastern Moslems, which is already abundant.

When you boil it all down, the world always wants to give the Jews the raw deal. I can understand why some want to help.

I see your point as well. However, "Moslems" refers to religion not race and there are many different middle eastern Muslim nationalities. inc. Palestinian.

The world population of the Jews increased (along with the general trend) during the centuries of the diaspora which is another problem apart from the fact that Palestine was occupied by another race pre Balfour Declaration.

However, it is currently less densely populated than Singapore, Hong Kong, Bangladesh and similar in density to Taiwan.

BrokenWarrior · Dec 31, 2014

Maybe we should look at it more like "Support God's people" and not "Support Goverment/Nation Israel"?

And, be wary of hypocrisy. If supporting Israel is supporting its sin then supporting America or Britain or Germany or any other nation would be wrong too...

Personally, I'm not gonna curse Israel. They're God's people....
"Blessed is he who blesses Israel, but cursed is he who curses Israel."

GoldenKingGaze · Jan 1, 2015

Israel from a a Biblical view should be treated with the Golden Rule and a love for life. Israel is made in part by dark Hebrew people who always lived there. And Israel is made up of European Jews who wanted to leave post war Europe, for the old and all Jewish land, a dream for them. Now they are there, they have a right to live. Around Israel are people who don't want them to live. Closer by were non Hebrew neighbours who they loved and who loved them.

It is the politicians who messed up Israel's name. Politicians, they have a bad name, and it is popular to mock them. Spitting Image...

France has long supported Israel, but had to say that Israel has worked carnage in the last round of fighting. This makes Israel look bad. And Muslims sometimes hate Israel want to chastise them, or just wipe them out with weapons. But Israel young, old, light or dark has a right to live and therefore exist as a nation, since if invaded they may be more than decimated.

We Christians should support Israeli people but hate wicked policies.

Zeek · Jan 1, 2015

Zeek posted...

Without exception all of my Jewish friends (and I have lots) view Kaufman as a traitor to his people

Vanellus said:
Jeremiah wasn't popular with other Israelites either.

Next time I see Gerald I will pass on your mind-boggling comparison, although after our last meeting he probably won't want to hear anything I have to say.

Beniamin · Jan 1, 2015

I support Israel , and I believe that they have the right to defend themselves from the Muslim , I won't support the Muslim , I live in an almost Muslim city in Austria , and I can tel u that they are devil without exception . LOVE ISRAEL

Zeek · Jan 1, 2015

TheDag said:
So supporting Israel means being biased. I didn't see people standing up against the lies we were fed for years about Israels enemies yet now those same people are complaining when lies are being fed about Israel. I call that double standards and do not see that as good christian behaviour.

Sorry...not quite sure of the point you are trying to make?

Zeek · Jan 1, 2015

BornAgainBrian said:
While I see your point, all peace plans have involved taking more land from Middle Eastern Jews, which is already crazy limited, and giving more land to Middle Eastern Moslems, which is already abundant.

When you boil it all down, the world always wants to give the Jews the raw deal. I can understand why some want to help.

Fair points.

Zeek · Jan 1, 2015

Beniamin said:
I support Israel , and I believe that they have the right to defend themselves from the Muslim , I won't support the Muslim , I live in an almost Muslim city in Austria , and I can tel u that they are devil without exception . LOVE ISRAEL

Hi Ben...I think many people in Europe are gradually waking up to the fact that many Moslems that live among them do not support the countries they live in and are only interested in expanding the rule of Islam and demanding Sharia Law. This is especially evident in Sweden, Holland, Belgium and other countries, but we are all so slow to see what is happening.

Beniamin · Jan 1, 2015

I live in Austria , 10 % Muslim and about 50% of the new born baby's from 2014 , we have tolerance , they don't , I'm happy to move next year in Houston

Beniamin · Jan 1, 2015

My dad was a Moldavian Jew of Marculesti ,I'm a Mesianic Jew now

Vanellus · Jan 1, 2015

Zeek said:
Zeek posted...
Next time I see Gerald I will pass on your mind-boggling comparison, although after our last meeting he probably won't want to hear anything I have to say.

The point is that being unpopular or holding a minority view (even if true of Kaufman - some people at least voted for him as an MP) doesn't mean you're in the wrong. It's not that Kaufman is like Jeremiah in every respect.

GreatistheLord · Jan 1, 2015

I think support of israel is also a relative thing, in the same way that God dealt with Israel in relation to the evil around it.
Given the death cults on its borders, the worship of Allah, and the hatred of the people of Jahweh, anything less than
support should be unimaginable.

grandvizier1006 · Jan 1, 2015

Vanellus said:
from thomaswilliamson.net

Reading Son of Hamas really opened my eyes to the conflict. The book is basically an autobiography about a Palestinian whose father was one of the founders of Hamas, and it goes from his journey as a Muslim to a Christian, during which he learns that there isn't really a "good" and "bad" side to the conflict. He ends up working for the Shin Bet (Israeli CIA equivalent) and stops some Palestinian terrorist activities. Ultimately, he comes to the conclusion that the best way to end the conflict is for both sides to try and love their enemies--easier said than done, of course, but it's a start.

The whole "Israel good, Palestine bad" thing is just bigoted. There are Palestinian Christians in existence, you know! Furthermore, the Israeli government attempted to cover up any traces of Christian history in Jerusalem for a while. The Jews don't exactly "love" the fundamentalist Christians who support them. It's more like an uneasy alliance.

I wouldn't "support" Israel's policies, but their right to exist isn't so bad. I'm just not crossing my fingers for the "end times" to be initiated during some skirmish with the Palestinians.

Should Christians support Israel?

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