Yeshua never used physical self defense

visionary

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It is confusing. In Luke 22:37-39, Yeshua explains it is good to be appropriately armed. In Proverbs 25:21-22 and Romans 12:17, Scriptures say to not repay evil with evil, but to bless your enemies. And in Matthew 5:39, Yeshua said if someone slaps your right cheek, offer them your left as well.

How are we to know when it is appropriate to turn the other cheek, or beat the living daylights out of them?
 
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ErezY

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It is confusing. In Luke 22:37-39, Yeshua explains it is good to be appropriately armed. In Proverbs 25:21-22 and Romans 12:17, Scriptures say to not repay evil with evil, but to bless your enemies. And in Matthew 5:39, Yeshua said if someone slaps your right cheek, offer them your left as well.

How are we to know when it is appropriate to turn the other cheek, or beat the living daylights out of them?
That's what rabbis are for.
 
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visionary

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That's what rabbis are for.
I am in an emergency situation, and I say, "hold please" I have to call my rabbi??

You got to be kidding me.:doh: We are to be a prepared people. When Lot and his people were captured, Abraham had no problem rescuing him with force without a Rabbi verification.(Genesis 14:13-16).

In Luke 22:36, Yeshua advised His disciples to take swords along with their other provisions as their Rabbi but it was a non-threating situation when he said it.

Then again, David refused to harm Saul, even though Saul was trying to kill him. And Yeshua scolded Peter for using a sword to fight off the guards that were taking Jesus away (John 18:10-11)
 
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visionary

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What's the difference? The timing and the situation. In a situation with an unknown aggressor with unknown intent, as in Exodus 22:2, it is okay to use self-defense. If the offense has already occurred, as in Proverbs 25 and Romans 12, we should not take the law into our own hands, but seek justice through the authorities. David refused to kill Saul because Saul was God's anointed king and authority. Jesus condemned Peter's action not because of his intent to defend Christ, but because Peter was getting in the way of God's plan for the guards to take Jesus. The Matthew 5 passage is stickiest. It appears to say that we are to take whatever abuse comes our way quietly. But a "slap on the cheek" didn't mean physical violence. It refers to an insult against honor. We are not to defend our honor with physical violence, but shrug it off.
 
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Alithis

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So how many think Yeshua preached pacifism.

i guess there is a vast difference between carnal pacifism and spiritual .. we are certainly not to be spiritual pacifists.. but we know that physical violence does not accomplish a spiritual outcome in respect to changing the heart of person -though it might work well in reminding them when they been an idiot .;)
 
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Danoh

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Hoshiyya, I'm wondering, how do we reconcile these two verses?


Matthew 26:52, For all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Luke 20:36, He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.


(If this were a question in logic, what would be the "reasonable" conclusion?)

Throughout, He has ever been a example to them...But now, He will soon be going away... Throughout He has yet ceased from instructing them in how they are to conduct themselves - especially in His absence now, and given the great temptations their coming hardships for His Name in will bring on them...

It is actually rather moving, as all things Him ever are...

Luke 22:
28. Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.
29. And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
31. And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
32. But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
33. And he said unto him, Lord, I am ready to go with thee, both into prison, and to death.
34. And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me.
35. And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.
36. Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
37. For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.
38. And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.
39. And he came out, and went, as he was wont, to the mount of Olives; and his disciples also followed him.
40. And when he was at the place, he said unto them, Pray that ye enter not into temptation.

41. And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed,
42. Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
43. And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.
44. And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

45. And when he rose up from prayer, and was come to his disciples, he found them sleeping for sorrow,
46. And said unto them, Why sleep ye? rise and pray, lest ye enter into temptation.
47. And while he yet spake, behold a multitude, and he that was called Judas, one of the twelve, went before them, and drew near unto Jesus to kiss him.
48. But Jesus said unto him, Judas, betrayest thou the Son of man with a kiss?
49. When they which were about him saw what would follow, they said unto him, Lord, shall we smite with the sword?
50. And one of them smote the servant of the high priest, and cut off his right ear.
51. And Jesus answered and said, Suffer ye thus far. And he touched his ear, and healed him.
52. Then Jesus said unto the chief priests, and captains of the temple, and the elders, which were come to him, Be ye come out, as against a thief, with swords and staves?
53. When I was daily with you in the temple, ye stretched forth no hands against me: but this is your hour, and the power of darkness.

The swords were a means of allowing them to find out for themselves that their concerns were still somewhat of this world, for while He was yet with them, even in that very moment of His betrayal and the power of darkness; thousands of Angels from Heaven had stood ready at His beck and call; but for the fact that the concerns of this world were not yet His, they had lacked nothing.

Matthew 26:

52. Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
53. Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

John 16:

28. I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
29. His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.
30. Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.
31. Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?
32. Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.
33. These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
 
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Danoh

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"Know! You need to judge every person favorably, even someone who is completely wicked, you need to search and find any little bit of good. By finding in him a little good and judging him favorably you actually bring him over to the side of merit and you can return him in teshuva" (Rabbi Nachman of Breslov, LM 282)
________________________________________________________________________

There are children of darkness who are of the Devil. There are children of the Light who are of the One and Only true Living God!!! Prayer for discernment is needed here!!!

We need to be very careful here and pray before discussing this matter. It could mean the difference between creating a false god and serving the True God!!! When Jesus came to this earth and spoke of peaceful things yet was very much a spiritual warrior by casting out demons and false gods, this was to teach us about spiritual warfare!!! He was also telling us that this was the time to be loving towards one another so that they may know that they belonged to HIM. In revelations Jesus comes back as a warrior!!! so to say He is one thing is to create a false god. I have been in MANY violent situations. I can honestly say that there was always a divine intervention of some kind. Does that mean I wouldn't defend myself. And what does defend actually mean. I live in a neighborhood where I erected a cross with "Jesus is peace, love, and hope because my next door neighbor threatened me with a knife. The police was called on me for having the cross!!!
The neighbors got together and built a fence so the man next door didn't have to look at the cross. Then about 13-15 grown huge men stood across the street and yelled how they were going to get rid of me. I called the police. Now if there was violence I would be equally responsible for having called the police who can use force. I got a security alarm system so the police can be notified!!! Also, does this mean that we all should have let the Jews be killed during the holocaust??? Does this mean if someone is killing your child you just stand back and watch??? Prayer is the answer to this. We cannot decide this for one another!!! We must stay very close to the One and Only True Living God!!!

Dearest sister, please... consider moving to a better neighborhood "Shake the dust off your feet, that your peace return unto you, and with you, to where it is wanted... let the dead bury the dead," if that is their wretched desire...

Move on... the Lord will always carry out His will...
 
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DennisTate

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"Know! You need to judge every person favorably, even someone who is completely wicked, you need to search and find any little bit of good. By finding in him a little good and judging him favorably you actually bring him over to the side of merit and you can return him in teshuva" (Rabbi Nachman of Breslov, LM 282)
________________________________________________________________________

There are children of darkness who are of the Devil. There are children of the Light who are of the One and Only true Living God!!! Prayer for discernment is needed here!!!

We need to be very careful here and pray before discussing this matter. It could mean the difference between creating a false god and serving the True God!!! When Jesus came to this earth and spoke of peaceful things yet was very much a spiritual warrior by casting out demons and false gods, this was to teach us about spiritual warfare!!! He was also telling us that this was the time to be loving towards one another so that they may know that they belonged to HIM. In revelations Jesus comes back as a warrior!!! so to say He is one thing is to create a false god. I have been in MANY violent situations. I can honestly say that there was always a divine intervention of some kind. Does that mean I wouldn't defend myself. And what does defend actually mean. I live in a neighborhood where I erected a cross with "Jesus is peace, love, and hope because my next door neighbor threatened me with a knife. The police was called on me for having the cross!!!
The neighbors got together and built a fence so the man next door didn't have to look at the cross. Then about 13-15 grown huge men stood across the street and yelled how they were going to get rid of me. I called the police. Now if there was violence I would be equally responsible for having called the police who can use force. I got a security alarm system so the police can be notified!!! Also, does this mean that we all should have let the Jews be killed during the holocaust??? Does this mean if someone is killing your child you just stand back and watch??? Prayer is the answer to this. We cannot decide this for one another!!! We must stay very close to the One and Only True Living God!!!

I admit that I may be wrong but for three decades I have strongly suspected that there must be some reasons why the name Azazel appears in Leviticus 16:10 in the RSV and in other versions?

If you are interested I ramble on about what I have came to think that this probably means here......… in the first page of this thread.......

http://www.christianforums.com/t7647325/

Yom Kippur/The Rapture connection?!


..........I had been fasting on Yom Kippur since the late 1970's and I had always wondered what this verse could possibly mean:


but the goat on which the lot fell for Aza'zel shall be presented alive before the LORD to make atonement over it, that it may be sent away into the wilderness to Aza'zel.(Leviticus 16:10 RSV)


In a nutshell I have came to strongly suspect that Azazel is the fallen angel who will be somewhat like General Abner who brought the ten tribes over to King David or to Rav Shaul/Paul who repented of persecuting Christians and followers of God.

I suspect that when the fallen angel Azazel returns to the God of Abraham with his whole heart...when Yom Kippur is completely fulfilled....then a major step will have been taken toward the ushering in of a truly new era of worldwide peace where even the eating habits of wild animals like lions will be altered!


"And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?"
(Matthew 12)
 
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Viren

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he did however encourage some of his disciples to purchase weapons shortly before the garden of Gethsemane experience.


Steve

If you continue reading he told them that so the scriptures would be fulfilled and that he would be marked with the transgressors. Then when Peter cut off the ear of the guard he said "those that live by the sword die by the sword".
 
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I don't pretend to be an expert here and acknowledge most of the above arguments are reasonable in my estimation. I wrestled with this question some years ago and here's what I came up with. just my $0.02

It cannot go unnoticed certainly on this forum that God's laws are in order. The highest law is the Law of Love. To be most loving to those around us in our love of God...all of those around us. A key piece of Loving my neighbor is to, as much as it is up to me, prevent his harm.

So knowing this In any given situation I need to appraise how I can prevent the harm of the most people around me. For example if a man begins robbing the bank I happen to be in I won't resist. No harm is coming to anyone but the wallets of the bank. If i chose to resist the robber I will take a father from his children, a husband to a wife, a son from his parents and a brother from his siblings. the imbalance is striking. In this scenario my use of lethal force is borderline selfish.

More than that the effect of shattering those lives will produce more antisocial behavior than I just prevented. His son statistically is very likely to turn to drugs to numb the pain, and is thus very likely to commit more than one violent crime in his lifetime. I haven't solved anything I've multiplied the problem

On the other hand If I go to school, I see an man in a mask holding an assault rifle I face the same fear of death as I did in the bank but if I let him go as I did with the bank robber countless of my classmates will lose their lives. Thousands of people will be devastated. In that case I would choose to take the life of the school shooter because it is the most loving act I can do. It turns the tragedy of 30 families into the tragedy of one family that I couldn't have prevented even if I let the other tragedies occur.

there are countless grey scenarios, which in my book require diligent research to come to conclusions concerning, however, the biggest question I had after the Law of Love discussion. How far does this go? Do I go about my business unarmed and hope the scenario never comes up? Buy a gun carry it and hope I never need it? Buy a gun carry it and troll tough neighborhoods hoping to stop an gang rape? Become a cop?

In truth I think this is a personal questioned answered by the Holy Spirit and the common sense the Lord gives you. Using my particular case as an example a portion of my job meant leading young college women through some pretty seedy neighborhoods and being in a car almost 9 hours per day. I saw a lot go on, met a lot of people on both sides of the law and even inadvertently walked into a few traps

I choose to carry a small defensive pistol. My rationale is that I feel that God has given me the sort of mind that could use it in good judgment under pressure should he ever require me to do so and has given me experience since boyhood shooting. I hope that I never need to fire it in anger but on at least four occasions I have been very glad to have the pistol either to diffuse situations before violence is on the table (2) or to reassure those under my protection that we have recourse and can safely get out of the threatening situation(2).

All four of those times I prevented harm of my neighbor and happily did so without causing any harm. I believe that this is pleasing to God. There certainly may come a day when God convicts me that I have been wrong all these years and that I should put away all weapons but so far I have found nothing in God's word to convict me of as much. I continue to carry a handgun and train with it diligently so that I can use it as safely and surgically as possible. God willing I hope that I can continue to limit the harm of my neighbors and I hope it will always be without causing harm to anyone.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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he did however encourage some of his disciples to purchase weapons shortly before the garden of Gethsemane experience.


Steve
The Lord also advocated the Death Penalty for those who failed to honor others as the Law commanded, as he noted when it came to emphasizing what the Scriptures noted on children harming their parents being put to death (Mark 7:9).

A lot of this goes back to seeing what the Lord shared on with revelation being progressive. And to give more clarity, One thing that I do think has to always be remembered is that even when it comes to the nature of Christ revealing the character of God, it is fascinating to see how Christ NEVER dismissed what the OT said or said it was all wrong - something that often happens whenever it comes to others saying Jesus was against all that happened in the OT (i.e. God sending the Plagues on Egypt, God punishing the Israelites with Fire from the Lord's Presence, Sending Enemies when they turned to idolatry and other scenario where he created or uses destruction in an active sense to illustrate a point/demonstrate His Holiness or Wrath against sin, etc.). He came to show Grace and what was not made available with the Israelites before.

We truly have a BETTER Covenant in Christ - and others I grew up in within the Faith Movement (like Jason Kerr ..with Pastor Jason being on TBN a couple of times, verification here ) preached on it many times - more shared here as well as here:

to see his presentation on God's grace:






http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ko5txGuaD2s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnasoUSY780
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkOHIF8wePw

Nonetheless, what many forget are that Laws are in CONNECTION/COVENANT - with aspects from the Mosaic Law included in the New Law we have (Law of Christ) rather than us Solely limited to the 613 of the Mosaic Law (just as the Mosaic Law included aspects from the Abrahamic Law and the Adamic Law before it) - all noted in his PDF on the issue of "The Law of Moses and the Law of Christ." and better understood when seeing "The Eight Covenants of the Bible"(more shared here in The Dispensations of God and Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum - The Eight Covenants of the Bible). Dr. Arnold said much in Theonomy or Antinomianism? The Law of Moses and The Law of Messiah :cool:

We see Christ who noted affirmation (rather than dismissal) for the the Mosaic Law, noting that those teaching against it would be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven if/when they advocated for not keeping of the "least of these commandments" (Mat. 5:17-19) - and He actually called out the Pharisees whenever they dishonored what God had already said before:

  • "Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? For God commanded, saying... `He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.' But you say..." Matthew 15:3-4

  • "For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men..." [Jesus] said to them, "All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother; and 'He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.' But you say... hat if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is Corban (that is, devoted to God)— 12 then you no longer let them do anything for their father or mother. 13 Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”" Mark 7:8-11

Jesus was never against the OT Law since the Lord had commanded it - but He was VEHEMENTLY against the misinterpretation of that law - and where Christ said "You have heard it said 'Eye for an Eye' and 'Tooth for a Tooth'..but I say....", it was him speaking specifically against personal vengence rather than saying God's OT Law was wrong for noting where the death penalty was commanded by God Himself for those transgressing it.


Some things do not have to be re-interpreted, especially if we're not from the culture that was closet to understanding what was said. It'd be akin to saying that murder is wrong and therefore ALL acts of others dying are condemned by God because we already have a pre-set view we want God to fit into.....but we ignore what God already said when he noted in Genesis 9:6-7 that the consequence of murder was that the life of the murderer was to be taken ("Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man") and throughout the OT Mosaic Law when it came to God commanding others be killed for breaking his law since under the law of Moses, the death penalty was required in cases of premeditated murder (Exodus 21:12-14,22-23; Leviticus 24:17; Numbers 35:16-21):

  • Anyone who strikes a man and kills him shall surely be put to death" (Ex 21:12 ...

It was always the case that Moses (through God's commands) noted that a person could be put to death for striking or cursing his parents (Exodus 21:15,17; Leviticus 20:9) - with a stubborn, disobedient, rebellious son who would not submit to parents or civil authorities required to be stoned to death (Deuteronomy 21:18-21)
 
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DennisTate

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he did however encourage some of his disciples to purchase weapons shortly before the garden of Gethsemane experience.


Steve

There is never only one meaning to important events in scripture……. Yes…. it was important for Messiah Yeshua - Jesus to be numbered among transgressors but also………….
… a powerful case can be presented that Ezekiel chapter 37 is not merely a one time event but in fact can happen again and again and again and again and again…….. and our lives can begin to look far far far far more like a tree than we might wish to imagine.

All of the events of history have been recorded…… but something that is highly unusual is that G-d has the power to replicate all of the earth…… along with everybody who lived at that moment……. and then spin off a whole new time line in which the amount of the Holy Spirit poured out on all flesh…. might be doubled…………. or doubled again and again……… and in that new time line…….. many of the injustices of a previous time line could be avoided?!

We are dealing with a Creator who would find it easy…… to accomplish something…. anything…… that we can even conceive of.

Back in 1990 I was forced to reserch the "soul sleep" doctrine….. in my studies I ran into evidence for multiple Ezekiel 37 events…. but at first I could not comprehend what I had stumbled onto.


"Although nature manifests four distinct forces, physicists believe that
each may be part of a smaller number of more primitive forces. At high energy, the electromagnetic and weak forces appear to merge into a single "electroweak" force. Some "grand unified theories" suggest that a further amalgamation takes place between the electroweak and strong forces at as yet unattained energies. The most ambitious unification schemes envisage an amalgamation of all four forces into a single "superforce" at ultra-high levels of energy."
...


"The real burden in the next three centuries will not be the development of fancy mathematics, but the experimental testing of these ambitious theories. All current thinking about total unification assumes that the effects of linking all the forces and particles together will only become manifest at energies that are some trillion times greater than those currently attainable in particle accelerators. Probably we shall never reach such energies directly" ( A Theory of Everything" Volume 21 of "The World of Science)
 
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