Sir Robert Anderson's Dates ???

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Is 28 is not about the end times as you know it. You've got end-time-itis. It is about a situation there. Out of that, there is a reference that gets used by the NT about the Gospel (I Pet 2). The believer in the Gospel will be protected from what some hopeless humans have decided to do about the problem of death. That's what that is about.

Shame on all those who know more about the OT than the NT says about it, to keep 2P2P intact.

The futuritis stuff is amateur, annoying, disgusting.
 
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BABerean2

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The words of the prophecy in question are:

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy." (Daniel 9:24)

First, we need to understand that, although most of our English translations say seventy weeks, the Hebrew word translated weeks was shabuwa' (word number 7620 in Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary) This word was used in the Old Testament for both a period of seven days and a period of seven years. Only the context could show whether days of years was meant. An in this case, the context clearly shows that the meaning could not even possibly been days. So it is not simply interpretation to take seventy weeks as meaning 490 years. This is a fully legitimate meaning of the Hebrew words used here.

Daniel was told, "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times." (Daniel 9:26) Here we have sixty-nine weeks, or 483 years, from the going forth of the commandment to Messiah the Prince.

But now the Divinely inspired account contains a break. We read, "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined." (Daniel 9:25-26)

Two things were to happen after the sixty-two week second part of this account. And we know that both of them indeed happened exactly as explicitly stated. “Messiah” would “be cut off,” and “the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.” Messiah was indeed cut off, and the city and the sanctuary were indeed destroyed. We know from history that these two events did not happen within a seven year period. Most historians feel that our calendar is in error, and the actual date of Jesus’ birth was 4 BC. Since Jesus lived thirty-three years, that puts his death in 29 A.D. But the city was not destroyed until 70 A.D., forty-one years after that. So even if there are small errors in the accepted dates of history, we absolutely know that “the city and the sanctuary” were not destroyed in the same week (seven year period) that our Lord was crucified. But we need to notice that both of these events are presented before the last week is even mentioned. So here we see an absolutely undeniable break in the scriptural account of the seventy weeks.

But the last week is treated differently. It does not even say that this is the seventieth week. The only reason we know that it is the seventieth week is because all the rest of the weeks had already been used up. So this week had to be the seventieth one. We read, "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." (Daniel 9:27)

Now many imagine that this verse speaks of the cross. They want to interpret the word “for” in this verse as “in,” and claim that this was speaking of Jesus confirming God’s covenant with us “in” the seventieth week, and claim that Jesus was crucified at the middle of the seventieth week. But even if history were wrong by so many years, this interpretation does violence to the structure of the prophecy. For the last week is not even mentioned until after the two events that were to take place after the sixty-ninth week.

But an end time covenant that will not be fulfilled is clearly mentioned in other Old Testament prophecies. One of these is Isaiah 28:14-18, where we read, “Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste. Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place. And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.”

Again, in Isaiah 57:7-9 we read, “Upon a lofty and high mountain hast thou set thy bed: even thither wentest thou up to offer sacrifice. Behind the doors also and the posts hast thou set up thy remembrance: for thou hast discovered thyself to another than me, and art gone up; thou hast enlarged thy bed, and made thee a covenant with them; thou lovedst their bed where thou sawest it. And thou wentest to the king with ointment, and didst increase thy perfumes, and didst send thy messengers far off, and didst debase thyself even unto hell.”

So we see that the scriptures indeed clearly foretell a future covenant that God will not allow to be fulfilled. Daniel 9:27 is only one of several places where this covenant in mentioned.

You sir have done an excellent job of showing that Irenaeus and others held to a future 70th week. However, as you have stated in the past, their commentary is not to be placed above scripture and most certainly not above the words of Christ himself.

Let us deal only with the words of the text.

The angel Gabriel said the prophecy would last 490 years. Neither he nor Daniel mentioned a gap. Placing a gap of unknown length into a time prophecy of clearly stated length, has to be considered doing great violence to the text. Some have even stated it makes the angel out to be a liar.

The words of Christ himself clearly shows him being the one to confirm the New Covenant (Testament). This was His very purpose which we all seem to agree on.



Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament(covenant), which is shed for many for the remission of sins.


Stephen was accused of saying that Christ would fulfilled Daniel 9:27. During his response Stephen never denied their accusation.


Act 6:14 For we have heard him say, that this Jesus of Nazareth shall destroy this place, and shall change the customs which Moses delivered us.



The words of Christ in the Gospels clearly show the destruction of Jerusalem and in two of the Gospel accounts the words abomination of desolation spoken by Daniel are clearly stated.


Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Mar 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:


Luke's account spells it out for us, so as to leave no uncertainty. Saying this event is future is a denial of the text.


Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.


I recently received a copy of the 1599 Geneva Bible from Tolle Lege Press & White Hall Press. The commentary that accompanied the Geneva Bible clearly stated that Christ has fulfilled Daniel 9:27 and shows the interpretation held by most in America before John Darby brought Dispensationalism to America.

Did it start with Darby? No.

However, he was the one who was responsible for spreading this interpretation which has come to dominate the evangelical church in our nation.

Darby, also rejected the clear teaching of the text and the words of Christ himself in order to promote Dispensationalism.


.
 
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Codger

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Thanks Brother Gideon,

I ordered the Atonement Clock and read the article.

The date of 457 BC from Ezra chapter 7 and the baptism date of 27 AD seem to be the revised dates that make more sense, due to the death of Herod around 4 BC.

If Jesus was two years old (Maximum) when Herod had the infants killed then how old does this make Jesus if Herod died in 4BC? He would have to have been born in 6BC. Herod didn't die in 4BC he died in 1AD. This puts Jesus' birth at about 3BC.
 
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BABerean2

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If Jesus was two years old (Maximum) when Herod had the infants killed then how old does this make Jesus if Herod died in 4BC? He would have to have been born in 6BC. Herod didn't die in 4BC he died in 1AD. This puts Jesus' birth at about 3BC.

The revised date from modern archeology is 4 B.C.

Check the link below.


Herod the Great - Herod and True Greatness
 
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J

Jerico Miles

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The angel Gabriel said the prophecy would last 490 years. Neither he nor Daniel mentioned a gap. Placing a gap of unknown length into a time prophecy of clearly stated length, has to be considered doing great violence to the text. Some have even stated it makes the angel out to be a liar.

The words of Christ himself clearly shows him being the one to confirm the New Covenant (Testament). This was His very purpose which we all seem to agree on.



Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament(covenant), which is shed for many for the remission of sins.


Stephen was accused of saying that Christ would fulfilled Daniel 9:27. During his response Stephen never denied their accusation.


Act 6:14 For we have heard him say, that this Jesus of Nazareth shall destroy this place, and shall change the customs which Moses delivered us.



The words of Christ in the Gospels clearly show the destruction of Jerusalem and in two of the Gospel accounts the words abomination of desolation spoken by Daniel are clearly stated.


Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Mar 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

An indirect form of blasphemy.
 
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BABerean2

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An indirect form of blasphemy.


I have attempted to avoid the name-calling, however taking a covenant fulfilled by Christ and changing it to a treaty broken by the antichrist would be considered blasphemy by some.

.
 
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Interplanner

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Jerico
could you elaborate? Your saying a ton, but not actually saying it. Are you unaware of the historical view?

BAB,
thanks so much for connecting Acts 6:14 that way to Dan 9! Is that an original thought or from commentary? It's spot on. You know what that means, then, about similar expressions in the gospels and Acts. Which I always knew were there but never thought of them as derived from Dan 9.
 
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Biblewriter

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You sir have done an excellent job of showing that Irenaeus and others held to a future 70th week. However, as you have stated in the past, their commentary is not to be placed above scripture and most certainly not above the words of Christ himself.

Let us deal only with the words of the text.

The angel Gabriel said the prophecy would last 490 years. Neither he nor Daniel mentioned a gap. Placing a gap of unknown length into a time prophecy of clearly stated length, has to be considered doing great violence to the text. Some have even stated it makes the angel out to be a liar.

The words of Christ himself clearly shows him being the one to confirm the New Covenant (Testament). This was His very purpose which we all seem to agree on.



Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament(covenant), which is shed for many for the remission of sins.


Stephen was accused of saying that Christ would fulfilled Daniel 9:27. During his response Stephen never denied their accusation.


Act 6:14 For we have heard him say, that this Jesus of Nazareth shall destroy this place, and shall change the customs which Moses delivered us.



The words of Christ in the Gospels clearly show the destruction of Jerusalem and in two of the Gospel accounts the words abomination of desolation spoken by Daniel are clearly stated.


Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Mar 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:


Luke's account spells it out for us, so as to leave no uncertainty. Saying this event is future is a denial of the text.


Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.


I recently received a copy of the 1599 Geneva Bible from Tolle Lege Press & White Hall Press. The commentary that accompanied the Geneva Bible clearly stated that Christ has fulfilled Daniel 9:27 and shows the interpretation held by most in America before John Darby brought Dispensationalism to America.

Did it start with Darby? No.

However, he was the one who was responsible for spreading this interpretation which has come to dominate the evangelical church in our nation.

Darby, also rejected the clear teaching of the text and the words of Christ himself in order to promote Dispensationalism.


.

Your interpretation is exactly that. An interpretation. All interpretations of scripture bear a possibility of error, for they are products of fallible human minds. The number of people who interpret a scripture a certain way, or how long that interpretation has been taught, are both immaterial.

The only thing that counts is what the scriptures actually say. And when my interpretation of the meaninh of any scripture contradicts the explicit statement of any other scripture, my interpretation is erroneous.

Now thate are a very large number of scriptures that explicitly say certain things will happen. And we lnow of a certainty that the things so explicitly stated in these scriptures have not happened. So any interpretation of any other scripture to mean that these things will not actually happen is erroneous.

There is not even one statement, anywhere in the entire New Testament, that says that even one of these predicted events will not actually happen.
 
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Choose Wisely

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The words of Christ in the Gospels clearly show the destruction of Jerusalem and in two of the Gospel accounts the words abomination of desolation spoken by Daniel are clearly stated.


Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Mar 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:


Luke's account spells it out for us, so as to leave no uncertainty. Saying this event is future is a denial of the text.


Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.


[.


Note that Luke says......BUT BEFORE ALL THESE after nations rise against nation in the verses before the ones you posted. However, Matt says THEN after nations rising against nations.

Luke is referring 70ad, Matt is talking about a future event that has not occurred. We can further prove that by what is spoken by Daniel the Prophet.



Daniel 12
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.


The points you are making do not stand up to the scripture.
 
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BABerean2

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Note that Luke says......BUT BEFORE ALL THESE after nations rise against nation in the verses before the ones you posted. However, Matt says THEN after nations rising against nations.

Luke is referring 70ad, Matt is talking about a future event that has not occurred. We can further prove that by what is spoken by Daniel the Prophet.



Daniel 12
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.


The points you are making do not stand up to the scripture.

The things indicated in Luke 21:12 did happen to the Apostles Christ was speaking to.


Luk 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

The same idea is communicated in Matthew's Gospel.

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.



The accounts given in the three different Gospels below, show the same idea with different wording.

Saying they are not referring to the same thing would be to interpret scripture in order to prove your doctrine.

This is obvious to anyone who can read the English language.


Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:



Mar 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:



Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.


.
 
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Danoh

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"Anyone who can understand the English language?"

Yeah, okay, that's the problem...

Never mind the culture the prophesies resulted in, influenced throughout...

When the Lord for example, related, "For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John," Mt. 11:13, "the English language" is not of much help, outside of going back to what aspect of the law is being referred to, what prophets, what prophecy, and what and or how the until John is all about in relation to that, etc.

For it is obvious He is talking to a people whom He expects should know what He is talking about, thus, we should approach it from what it was He expected they should already know, thus, His reference to "the prophets and the law..."

Most don't approach it that way - all they see is "okay, the law and the prophets were until John," and arrive at so much from what was, at this point, only their own conclusion, that by the time anyone comes along and points out something they may have missed, they are blind to it.

Unfortunately, they then turn around and assert, "well, the same applies to you..." and no one gets anywhere.

Your "anyone who knows the English language" is one of those same kinds of short-sighted conclusions...
 
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BABerean2

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"Anyone who can understand the English language?"

Yeah, okay, that's the problem...

Never mind the culture the prophesies resulted in, influenced throughout...

When the Lord for example, related, "For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John," Mt. 11:13, "the English language" is not of much help, outside of going back to what aspect of the law is being referred to, what prophets, what prophecy, and what and or how the until John is all about in relation to that, etc.

For it is obvious He is talking to a people whom He expects should know what He is talking about, thus, we should approach it from what it was He expected they should already know, thus, His reference to "the prophets and the law..."

Most don't approach it that way - all they see is "okay, the law and the prophets were until John," and arrive at so much from what was, at this point, only their own conclusion, that by the time anyone comes along and points out something they may have missed, they are blind to it.

Unfortunately, they then turn around and assert, "well, the same applies to you..." and no one gets anywhere.

Your "anyone who knows the English language" is one of those same kinds of short-sighted conclusions...

We all greatly appreciate your careful exegesis of the scripture being discussed in the post.

It shed a great deal of light upon our discussion.


.
 
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Danoh

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We all greatly appreciate your careful exegesis of the scripture being discussed in the post.

It shed a great deal of light upon our discussion.


.

Be consistent, the issue you brought up about language was one of how things are approached, and that makes a world of difference as to what light is shed, or mis-believed has been shed.

By the way, Happy Holidays, brother. And to all of you as well ::) :hug:
 
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Biblewriter said:
Actually, although sir Robert Anderson's "to the day" is indeed questionable, the doctrine of a seven year tribulation is not based on that calculation, nor did it originate with Darby.

.... Irenaeus .... Hyppolytus ....

So enough of this nonsense that this was "invented" by Darby.

Im aware that a few Church Fathers were chiliast, pre-mil believers, but it would be a stretch to equate them to dispensational futurism.

Notwithstanding Irenaeus and Hyppolytus, the finer points of a future '7 years' as it is now propagated, only stems from the 19th century. In particular, the attempt to count 69 weeks from Artaxerxes to Jesus' entry into Jerusalem is a modern contrivance, with its basis in Andersons writings.
 
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Interplanner

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Gideon,
you might be right about the chiliast in the early centuries, but we should go back and see that the problem is not quite just finding the perfect theology. All of these questions are really sorted out in history in a completely different way. That is, the end of the world was expected right after the decimation of Jerusalem, but there was an allowance in what Jesus said that it would not happen right after.

Hopefully you were putting yourself in the apostle's shoes in 33 when they first heard all this. Now you're going to have move forward to 71 or at latest right after Masada in 72. The end of the world doesn't happen. In a few more years, a massive event happens near Rome (Vesuvius cauterizes Pompeii) but still nothing.

So what are the options? All you can do now is go back to Mk 13 and Mt24B and say 'only the Father knows' and that the parable of the attentive servants allowed for four times for the return of the Master.

The Rev? Well, that's more of an assimilation of what happened in the DofJ for those believers who had to relocate to the 7 Asian churches mentioned. It is not a prediction except about the end of time.

So now let's talk chiliasm again. Do you treat the Rev like a clockwork program and why? Can you be any more precise than the parable of the attentive servants? Do you try to figure out why lots of things need to happen in Judea? You have the apostles using the OT 2500 times, yet they seem unconcerned about the future land of Israel or the few chapters that are in every "propehcy experts" books top 5: late Ezekiel and some Daniel chapters, all without NT interpretation.

Given all that, those ECFs could end up anywhere doctrinally. Sure, BW finds this item or that belief back there, but they are just trying to "pick up pieces" left over from the inconclusion of history known as the DofJ. And does it matter? What is our task? Why do so many people think the Bible 'owes' us a complete listing of every event of the future? Why do so many people think it is spiritual to try to figure it all out?

A: the Gospel is the enduring central message, and the Gospel is why none of that futurist stuff matters. The final judgement of God matters yes, but why on earth would it be tangled up with some final conflicts in the middle east is totally scattered thinking. None of that will be found in the ordinary-spoken passages on the end of the world and God's judgement in the NT.

The Gospel is that we are justified from our sins through our Lord Jesus Christ. In case you are worried about a rapture, that Gospel is 2nd-coming proof.
 
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BABerean2

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Your interpretation is exactly that. An interpretation. All interpretations of scripture bear a possibility of error, for they are products of fallible human minds. The number of people who interpret a scripture a certain way, or how long that interpretation has been taught, are both immaterial.

The only thing that counts is what the scriptures actually say. And when my interpretation of the meaninh of any scripture contradicts the explicit statement of any other scripture, my interpretation is erroneous.

Now thate are a very large number of scriptures that explicitly say certain things will happen. And we lnow of a certainty that the things so explicitly stated in these scriptures have not happened. So any interpretation of any other scripture to mean that these things will not actually happen is erroneous.

There is not even one statement, anywhere in the entire New Testament, that says that even one of these predicted events will not actually happen.

Attempting to verify Futurism by denying historical past events would seem to be a problem for the doctrine.


We know with 100 % certainty that the events detailed in the following verses did indeed happen during the seige of 70 A.D.



The city of Jerusalem was surrounded by the Roman legions under the command of Prince Titus.

The early Jewish Christians fled to the mountains of Pella.



Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.


Over a million people were in Jerusalem at the beginning of the siege. Most were killed when the Romans gained access to the city. Thousands were taken captive and sold into slavery. The temple was completely destroyed just as Christ had predicted. Not one stone was left upon another.


Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.


Christ warned the women of what would befall them in the future destruction of the city. Some would eat their own children in an attempt to survive the starvation produced by the siege.


Luk 23:28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.
Luk 23:29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.
Luk 23:30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.
Luk 23:31 For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry?


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Biblewriter

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Attempting to verify Futurism by denying historical past events would seem to be a problem for the doctrine.


We know with 100 % certainty that the events detailed in the following verses did indeed happen during the seige of 70 A.D.



The city of Jerusalem was surrounded by the Roman legions under the command of Prince Titus.

The early Jewish Christians fled to the mountains of Pella.



Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.


Over a million people were in Jerusalem at the beginning of the siege. Most were killed when the Romans gained access to the city. Thousands were taken captive and sold into slavery. The temple was completely destroyed just as Christ had predicted. Not one stone was left upon another.


Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.


Christ warned the women of what would befall them in the future destruction of the city. Some would eat their own children in an attempt to survive the starvation produced by the siege.


Luk 23:28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.
Luk 23:29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.
Luk 23:30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.
Luk 23:31 For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry?


.
Although there doubtless are such ignorant persons out there, I do not personally know of a single futurist that denies that the Luke account refers to AD 70.

This is one of the few prophecies of scriptures (other than those about Messiah's first coming) that has actually taken place. But you will notice that ythe events prophesied in Luke took place literally, exactly as they were uttered by the Lord. This is similar to the first 35 verses of Daniel 11, which took place with such literal precision that unbelievers claim that yheir very accuracy proves they could not have been written before the events actually took place.

But when preterists claim that most other prophecies have been fulfilled, they ignore the fact that most of the details of the prophecy allegedly fulfilled by a cited historical event do not even approximately resemble what the historical records say actually took place at that time.

This is also true of the claims made by historicists. But this is necessary to support either of these theories, for the events of end time prophecy have not yet happened.
 
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BABerean2

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Although there doubtless are such ignorant persons out there, I do not personally know of a single futurist that denies that the Luke account refers to AD 70.

This is one of the few prophecies of scriptures (other than those about Messiah's first coming) that has actually taken place. But you will notice that ythe events prophesied in Luke took place literally, exactly as they were uttered by the Lord. This is similar to the first 35 verses of Daniel 11, which took place with such literal precision that unbelievers claim that yheir very accuracy proves they could not have been written before the events actually took place.

But when preterists claim that most other prophecies have been fulfilled, they ignore the fact that most of the details of the prophecy allegedly fulfilled by a cited historical event do not even approximately resemble what the historical records say actually took place at that time.

This is also true of the claims made by historicists. But this is necessary to support either of these theories, for the events of end time prophecy have not yet happened.

If we agree that these events actually occurred during 70 A.D., how can we avoid connecting these events to Daniel 9:27's abomination of desolation?

What am I missing here?




Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Mar 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.


:confused:
 
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