Praying for the Dead?

Dari0 · Dec 23, 2014

I was raised Catholic, and saw my family saying things like, pray for this person, and that person, but they've already passed on. I've become a Christian now, and just trying to apply to this in a biblical sense.

Does it have any affect? I know Luke 9:60 Jesus says let the dead bury the dead, but I don't want to take that out of context. Jesus was most likely referring to the man making excuses not to follow Jesus on his journey making disciples of all nations.

Some of my family members would also say, she/he is with you in spirit, (a family relative that's passed away). For me its just a little creepy that someone other than God and His angels are looking out for me, but hey, I'm still young and have a lot to learn.

Thanks!

BjBarnett · Dec 23, 2014

I present to you for consideration 2nd Timothy 1:16-18
"May the Lord grant mercy to the family of Onesiphorus because he often gave me new heart and was not ashamed of my chains. But when he came to Rome, he promptly searched for me and found me. May the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that day. And you know very well the services he rendered in Ephesus."

Oneisphorus was dead at the time of Paul's writing (if you will notice hes speaking of him in the past tense) and yet Paul says "May the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that day". Paul is praying for Oneisphorus even though he has passed away. Also 2 Maccabees 12:39-46 says

"On the following day, since the task had now become urgent, Judas and his companions went to gather up the bodies of the fallen and bury them with their kindred in their ancestral tombs. But under the tunic of each of the dead they found amulets sacred to the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. So it was clear to all that this was why these men had fallen. They all therefore praised the ways of the Lord, the just judge who brings to light the things that are hidden. Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection in mind; for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be absolved from their sin."

This is very likely the same thought process Paul was following when praying for Onesiphorus.

Hope this helps... May God Bless you...

GoingByzantine · Dec 23, 2014

You were a Christian when you were a Catholic, unless you did not believe in Christ at the time.

I have a link bookmarked on my browser that might help answer your question:

Prayer and the Departed Saints

Be Well.

Dari0 · Dec 23, 2014

BjBarnett said:
I present to you for consideration 2nd Timothy 1:16-18
"May the Lord grant mercy to the family of Onesiphorus because he often gave me new heart and was not ashamed of my chains. But when he came to Rome, he promptly searched for me and found me. May the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that day. And you know very well the services he rendered in Ephesus."

Oneisphorus was dead at the time of Paul's writing (if you will notice hes speaking of him in the past tense) and yet Paul says "May the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that day". Paul is praying for Oneisphorus even though he has passed away. Also 2 Maccabees 12:39-46 says

"On the following day, since the task had now become urgent, Judas and his companions went to gather up the bodies of the fallen and bury them with their kindred in their ancestral tombs. But under the tunic of each of the dead they found amulets sacred to the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. So it was clear to all that this was why these men had fallen. They all therefore praised the ways of the Lord, the just judge who brings to light the things that are hidden. Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection in mind; for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be absolved from their sin."

This is very likely the same thought process Paul was following when praying for Onesiphorus.

Hope this helps... May God Bless you...

The first point really makes me think. hmm. I don't go by the book of Maccabees though, appreciate your response!

EvangelCatholic · Dec 23, 2014

Lutherans pray for the dead during the funeral liturgy.

Dari0 · Dec 23, 2014

GoingByzantine said:
You were a Christian when you were a Catholic, unless you did not believe in Christ at the time.

I have a link bookmarked on my browser that might help answer your question:

Be Well.

Thanks man! I'll take a look.

I'm very discreet about this.

Being raised by a Catholic family. Jesus was as less importance to Mary and many other prophets, saints, and so forth. I was taught growing up in a Catholic school that my salvation was solely dependent on my good works as a human, which in Christian theology obviously makes no sense. because Jesus said your works are as filthy rags.

I know this is a Christian forum of all denominations, so again, I'll keep this discreet, and love on people the way God loves and sees every single one of you guys, I see myself as no better, fallen short of His glory.

barryatlake · Dec 23, 2014

DariO, you wrote: " Being raised by a Catholic family. Jesus was as less importance to Mary and many other prophets, saints, and so forth. "

As a youngster I was brought up in a Catholic neighborhood, never once did I hear any Catholic place Mary above Jesus. Even the "Hail Mary" prayer asks Mary to pray for us.

Dari0 · Dec 23, 2014

barryatlake said:
DariO, you wrote: " Being raised by a Catholic family. Jesus was as less importance to Mary and many other prophets, saints, and so forth. "

As a youngster I was brought up in a Catholic neighborhood, never once did I hear any Catholic place Mary above Jesus. Even the "Hail Mary" prayer asks Mary to pray for us.

I didn't say Mary was "placed" above Jesus, I said he was of less importance. There was statues of Jesus at the church, but its like he wasn't even there, and people were focused on so many other things, (this is my experience, not saying Jesus is a statue, of course not) And I didn't know what forgiveness was, His love was, or His care for me was, the list goes on an on. I never understood the Hail Mary prayer either, I know God chose her to be the mother of Jesus, but she's a sinner like us all, why are Catholics hailing her?

I don't want to get off topic, but I am. The salvation of the person is dependent on their faith in Jesus, if that person didn't believe and is in hell because of it, what are our prayers going to do for that person?

GoingByzantine · Dec 23, 2014

Dari0 said:
Thanks man! I'll take a look.

I'm very discreet about this.

Being raised by a Catholic family. Jesus was as less importance to Mary and many other prophets, saints, and so forth. I was taught growing up in a Catholic school that my salvation was solely dependent on my good works as a human, which in Christian theology obviously makes no sense. because Jesus said your works are as filthy rags.

I know this is a Christian forum of all denominations, so again, I'll keep this discreet, and love on people the way God loves and sees every single one of you guys, I see myself as no better, fallen short of His glory.

That is a good attitude to have. I am sorry your Catholic upbringing did not follow the correct path, I can definitely relate to that. I have told people on this forum before that I knew next to nothing about Christ or his Church when I was confirmed. I am basically self taught, and now I am nurtured by a God loving parish and all the excellent Catholics on this site.

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

I have got to say that this part scares me, for I have not always acted Christian towards other people, and I am certainly conscious of my sins.

I believe that prayer for the dead is a positive thing, as opposed to mourning. In Luke 8, a man name Jairus looses his daughter. Everyone mourns and grieves for her, but Jesus tells them that if they have faith and believe she will be made well. When we pray for the souls of the departed we are asking Christ to accept the soul into heaven, we are putting faith in him to make that person well at the seat of the Lord.

This seems like the opposite of mourning, which is penitential and often bitter.

Luke 8:50-52
But when Jesus heard it, He answered him, saying, Do not be afraid; only believe, and she will be made well. 51 When He came into the house, He permitted no one to go in except Peter, James, and John, and the father and mother of the girl. 52 Now all wept and mourned for her; but He said, Do not weep; she is not dead, but sleeping. 53 And they ridiculed Him, knowing that she was dead.

ChristsSoldier115 · Dec 23, 2014

I was always under the impression that once a person dies, the consequences of their actions is set in stone. I pray for the dead in my grief, but I never pray to the dead. I pray that their actions and heart were right with God. I pray for what-ifs, because what is done is done.

I am baptist. So I don't fully understand the concept or saints. It is my own personal belief that no single human people can be holier than the next one because of his or her actions. There is no hierarchy in heaven other than God > angels > humanity.

ebia · Dec 23, 2014

Dari0 said:
I was raised Catholic, and saw my family saying things like, pray for this person, and that person, but they've already passed on. I've become a Christian now, and just trying to apply to this in a biblical sense.

Does it have any affect? I know Luke 9:60 Jesus says let the dead bury the dead, but I don't want to take that out of context. Jesus was most likely referring to the man making excuses not to follow Jesus on his journey making disciples of all nations.

Some of my family members would also say, she/he is with you in spirit, (a family relative that's passed away). For me its just a little creepy that someone other than God and His angels are looking out for me, but hey, I'm still young and have a lot to learn.

Thanks!

It's appropriate that we bring all of our worries, concerns and anxieties before God who loves us, especially those concerning our loved ones.

ebia · Dec 23, 2014

Dari0 said:
I didn't say Mary was "placed" above Jesus, I said he was of less importance. There was statues of Jesus at the church, but its like he wasn't even there, and people were focused on so many other things, (this is my experience, not saying Jesus is a statue, of course not) And I didn't know what forgiveness was, His love was, or His care for me was, the list goes on an on. I never understood the Hail Mary prayer either, I know God chose her to be the mother of Jesus, but she's a sinner like us all, why are Catholics hailing her?

I don't want to get off topic, but I am. The salvation of the person is dependent on their faith in Jesus, if that person didn't believe and is in hell because of it, what are our prayers going to do for that person?

The purpose of prayer is not tell God how to solve our problems.

Read the psalms, the bible's prayerbook. The intercessory parts are overwhelmingly filled with bringing stuff to God's attention. The idea that prayers should tell God how to resolve the problem is a much later misconception.

BobRyan · Dec 23, 2014

Dari0 said:
I was raised Catholic, and saw my family saying things like, pray for this person, and that person, but they've already passed on. I've become a Christian now, and just trying to apply to this in a biblical sense.

Does it have any affect? I know Luke 9:60 Jesus says let the dead bury the dead, but I don't want to take that out of context. Jesus was most likely referring to the man making excuses not to follow Jesus on his journey making disciples of all nations.

Some of my family members would also say, she/he is with you in spirit, (a family relative that's passed away). For me its just a little creepy that someone other than God and His angels are looking out for me, but hey, I'm still young and have a lot to learn.

Thanks!

Heb 9 -- "it is appointed unto man once to die and then comes the judgment"

There is no support in the Bible for praying to the dead or for the dead.

in Christ,

Bob

Dari0 · Dec 23, 2014

ebia said:
The purpose of prayer is not tell God how to solve our problems.

Read the psalms, the bible's prayerbook. The intercessory parts are overwhelmingly filled with bringing stuff to God's attention. The idea that prayers should tell God how to resolve the problem is a much later misconception.

I think your totally missing the point, and my question entirely. If we want to get into that, what about Moses changing God's mind in Exodus 32? Moses told God his problem, and the Lord changed his mind.

barryatlake · Dec 23, 2014

Listen, a young Catholic is introduced to Jesus more than any other Christian group of believers , first - Baptism, then at age of reasoning, First Communion [ accepting Jesus intimately ] then Confirmation [ becoming a soldier of Jesus ]
If you were more attentive at Mass you would have heard the bible being read to you about Jesus. It is not the fault of His Church that you were not paying attention. Jesus was and still is always waiting for you in His Church, no, His Church is not necessarily a building but also could be an open field, tent, on board ship, anyplace that Jesus comes down to us from heaven ,and that miracle/mystery only occurs at Mass.

Albion · Dec 23, 2014

Dari0 said:
I was raised Catholic, and saw my family saying things like, pray for this person, and that person, but they've already passed on. I've become a Christian now, and just trying to apply to this in a biblical sense.

Does it have any affect?

Probably not. Praying for the dead is premised upon the idea that their eternal destiny is not set at death--Purgatory exists, IOW and indulgences and/or prayers are supposed to shorten the loved one's stay in Purgatory.

Some of my family members would also say, she/he is with you in spirit, (a family relative that's passed away).

There is absolutely nothing in scripture that suggests that the dead can "look in on us." This goes against what every Spiritualist "Medium" and fortune-teller would say and the fond theories of those left behind that "Dad is smiling on my efforts today and is proud of me" but the Bible doesn't suggest anything but that there's a great gulf that separates them from us.

For me its just a little creepy that someone other than God and His angels are looking out for me, but hey, I'm still young and have a lot to learn.

We think that they KNOW that we mortals are here and struggling, but that's quite a different matter from thinking they are watching and listening to us

ebia · Dec 23, 2014

Dari0 said:
I think your totally missing the point, and my question entirely. If we want to get into that, what about Moses changing God's mind in Exodus 32? Moses told God his problem, and the Lord changed his mind.

I didn't say that God doesn't change his mind because of prayer. He does.

I am saying that biblical prayer is about telling God the problem, not giving him a solution. Biblical prayers almost always concentrate on telling God what is wrong and begging him to do something; they hardly ever tell him what to do. Modern Christian prayers (because few christians pray the psalms any more) assume God knows the problem and concentrate on telling God the solution and that massively distorts people's concept of prayer.

That you cannot see how he can resolve the tension is not a biblical reason not to pray.

barryatlake · Dec 23, 2014

Of course the Holy Bible tells us that saints in heaven pray for us, see why you may pray to the saints- read [ Job 42:8-9 ] [ Rev. 8: 4 ]

BobRyan · Dec 23, 2014

Dari0 said:
I think your totally missing the point, and my question entirely. If we want to get into that, what about Moses changing God's mind in Exodus 32? Moses told God his problem, and the Lord changed his mind.

intercessory prayer is effective - no doubt.

But Moses was not praying to dead people or for dead people.

BobRyan · Dec 23, 2014

ebia said:
I didn't say that God doesn't change his mind because of prayer. He does.

I am saying that biblical prayer is about telling God the problem, not giving him a solution. Biblical prayers almost always concentrate on telling God what is wrong and begging him to do something; they hardly ever tell him what to do. Modern Christian prayers (because few christians pray the psalms any more) assume God knows the problem and concentrate on telling God the solution and that massively distorts people's concept of prayer.

That you cannot see how he can resolve the tension is not a biblical reason not to pray.

you are changing the subject of praying to and/or for the dead - into the subject of praying in general for the benefit of some living person.

Very different things We have a lot of examples of praying for living persons -and few Christians argue against it.

But there are NO bible examples of the living praying for the dead. Or trying to benefit the dead - while dead.

in Christ,

Bob

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