What exactly is holy tradition?

elliott95

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The problem with Holy Tradition that Albion points out is that it in effect has never been canonized, and cannot be canonized.
For the most part, what is outside of Scripture, is un-sourced, or sourced to obscure memories of things long ago.

That being said, there are many traditions that can be appreciated for what they are, as they help to bring out the characteristics and meaings of the story, like Hollywood does to the story of the Exodus. The names and races of the three wise men may well be fictional, for example, but the deeper truth is that Christ opened up the faith received through Israel to the whole world, to all races.
Legends and myths and embellishments are not necessarily a bad thing, as long as the non-scriptural context is understood.

Scripture itself is very richly sourced, and historic events is but one source. It is not necessarily wrong to dogmatize myth and legend therefore, but it really ought to be recognized that for anything out of Scriptural sources especially, it is almost invariably myth and legend, and not verifiable history, that is being dogmatized in Holy Tradition.
 
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elliott95

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Lourdes would be an interesting example of Holy Tradition, as a lived experience of the faith. It cannot be Scriptural, , but the experience is real enough.

I would say a lot of the visions and mystical experiences of the saints would be a part of the Holy Tradition too, in the sense that Christ's story does not really end at his death and Ascension, but really actually begins in earnest on Pentecost Sunday and the birth of his Church, animated with his spirit.

There are legendary aspects of the hagiographies of course, especially those that developed from the mists of time, when the evidence of myth and legend was more openly accepted. Did Saint Marten de Porres really exist in two places at once, for example? Who really knows, but we do know of the saintliness of Mother Teresa, and Pope John Paul II, of Saint Thomas More, and the Jesuit priests who sacrificed themselves bringing the gospel to hostile tribes of North America.
You know, I am certain that there are any number of Protestant Christian heroes as well, martyrs for the faith, and as animated by the Holy Spirit, as Saint Nicholas, and Mother Teresa and any number of saints canonized by the Catholic Church.
Without the 'marketing' and 'public relations' that are so much a part of the canonization process of RCC, I am probably not the only one who is hard pressed to identify who these saints would be.

It is such an important lesson that Protestantism brought about the primacy of Scripture. for all of Scripture is a prelude and the climax to the greatest story ever told, which is the biography of God Incarnate into the world.
But Christianity is not simply a history lesson of Jesus 2000 years ago. Christianity is the ongoing story of the outpouring of God's Spirit onto the world for two thousand years now. And if Scripture does not contain even all that Jesus did on earth in his thirty -something years as Emanuel, all the books in the world could not even begin to touch the infinitely larger story of the Spirit of Christ living among us for the past 2k years.

My Holy Tradition includes the American Revolution and the realization of freedom for the whole of humanity, and Harriet Tubman too. These are very much examples of the lived experience of the Church in the world too.
 
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MoreCoffee

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wild traditions from the dark ages are not "holy" if they fail to pass the Mark 7:6-13 test that Christ set up - the test of scripture.

You are off topic. Please read the OP and stick to the topic.
 
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Albion

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The problem with Holy Tradition that Albion points out is that it in effect has never been canonized, and cannot be canonized.
For the most part, what is outside of Scripture, is un-sourced, or sourced to obscure memories of things long ago.

That being said, there are many traditions that can be appreciated for what they are, as they help to bring out the characteristics and meaings of the story, like Hollywood does to the story of the Exodus. The names and races of the three wise men may well be fictional, for example, but the deeper truth is that Christ opened up the faith received through Israel to the whole world, to all races.
Legends and myths and embellishments are not necessarily a bad thing, as long as the non-scriptural context is understood.

I appreciate your thoughtful approach to this matter, but I have to point out that traditions which embellish and "bring out" a deeper meaning, etc. may be good, but that's not the whole of the matter.

The question here is about "Holy Tradition" AKA "Sacred Tradition," which is more than just traditions and their place in church life. Holy Tradition defines doctrines...and not only that, but traditions which are often made into dogmas, i.e. teachings that are declared to be obligatory upon the church members.

THAT is the real issue, not whether any traditional observances or stories or anything of that sort might be valuable.
 
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BobRyan

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wild traditions from the dark ages are not "holy" if they fail to pass the Mark 7:6-13 test that Christ set up - the test of scripture.

And this is true "by definition" of what Christians can accept as valid or holy according to Christ Himself.



You are off topic. Please read the OP and stick to the topic.

It is a best "inconvenient for your POV" but including the statement of Christ on this subject is not "off topic" unless one determines that the teaching of Christ should not be allowed on the subject "by definition".

A point I have never seen affirmed on GT or CF.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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MoreCoffee

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It is a best "inconvenient for your POV" but including the statement of Christ on this subject is not "off topic" unless one determines that the teaching of Christ should not be allowed on the subject "by definition".

A point I have never seen affirmed on GT or CF.

in Christ,

Bob

Please read the original post and stick to the topic it defines.
 
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Standing Up

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The problem with Holy Tradition that Albion points out is that it in effect has never been canonized, and cannot be canonized.
For the most part, what is outside of Scripture, is un-sourced, or sourced to obscure memories of things long ago.

That being said, there are many traditions that can be appreciated for what they are, as they help to bring out the characteristics and meaings of the story, like Hollywood does to the story of the Exodus. The names and races of the three wise men may well be fictional, for example, but the deeper truth is that Christ opened up the faith received through Israel to the whole world, to all races.
Legends and myths and embellishments are not necessarily a bad thing, as long as the non-scriptural context is understood.

Scripture itself is very richly sourced, and historic events is but one source. It is not necessarily wrong to dogmatize myth and legend therefore, but it really ought to be recognized that for anything out of Scriptural sources especially, it is almost invariably myth and legend, and not verifiable history, that is being dogmatized in Holy Tradition.

Quite right. And RC Catechism says so explicitly; that is, Tradition is whatever the bishops decide upon.
 
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Standing Up

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I appreciate your thoughtful approach to this matter, but I have to point out that traditions which embellish and "bring out" a deeper meaning, etc. may be good, but that's not the whole of the matter.

The question here is about "Holy Tradition" AKA "Sacred Tradition," which is more than just traditions and their place in church life. Holy Tradition defines doctrines...and not only that, but traditions which are often made into dogmas, i.e. teachings that are declared to be obligatory upon the church members.

THAT is the real issue, not whether any traditional observances or stories or anything of that sort might be valuable.

Yes, that is one function of Tradition; to define doctrines that are not explicit in Scripture.

One might question why RC does this.
 
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sculleywr

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The title of the thread invites definition.
How was Bob off of that topic?
Because his post was attacking Tradition, not the defining of Tradition, but Tradition itself, in the same manner he attacks Tradition in every board related to it. He states very plainly that nothing is doctrinally true unless you can prove it with Sola Scriptura. His posts belong elsewhere and will continue to be reported until he discusses the topic at hand.
 
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sculleywr

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And this is true "by definition" of what Christians can accept as valid or holy according to Christ Himself.





It is a best "inconvenient for your POV" but including the statement of Christ on this subject is not "off topic" unless one determines that the teaching of Christ should not be allowed on the subject "by definition".

A point I have never seen affirmed on GT or CF.

in Christ,

Bob
It is not inconvenient. It is assumed for the purposes of this discussion that Tradition stands on its own and includes Scripture. It is also assumed that the debate of sola Scriptura vs Tradition is irrelevant, as the mods have already warned you to not stray from that topic.
 
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WisdomTree

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wild traditions from the dark ages are not "holy" if they fail to pass the Mark 7:6-13 test that Christ set up - the test of scripture.

What is this "dark age" you speak of? According to historians, there really weren't an age which was particularly dark. The term itself was coined by Romaphile who despised anything non-Roman (ie, Middle Ages).
 
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Albion

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What is this "dark age" you speak of? According to historians, there really weren't an age which was particularly dark. The term itself was coined by Romaphile who despised anything non-Roman (ie, Middle Ages).

Please let's not let "political correctness, historical style, keep us from understanding the issue here. The term "Dark Ages" is considered passé in some circles, just like we're not supposed to say B.C. and A.D. anymore, but that period of time we call the Dark Ages certainly was BAD!

No, it wasn't as dark as some people might have imagined, and it did have some positive qualities, but it nevertheless was a very low period in Western history and culture--even if you use some sanitized term for it (as though we're going to hurt the Dark Ages' feelings if we don't!) .

I might also add, that if you convince yourself that the Dark Ages have just gotten a bad rap from earlier historians, you are left to demote the High Middle Ages from being the tremendous "recovery" period that it was. If things weren't so bad before, they can't have been all that much better later on. ;)
 
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sculleywr

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Both the Dark Ages issue and the issue of whether Tradition should be followed are off topic. The Tradition board on GT was recently re-opened (like the hydra, you cut off the head and two more come back). Go there for that discussion.
 
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sculleywr

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getting back to the topic, I would speak to the content, and I would suggest one practical Tradition and one dogmatic Tradition:

The Practical Tradition is liturgy. History shows us that Jews and Christians were highly liturgical people.

The dogmatic Tradition I will add to the list are the dogmas defined in the 7 Ecumenical Councils.
 
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BobRyan

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Both the Dark Ages issue and the issue of whether Tradition should be followed are off topic. .

If it can be shown that what is called "Holy" is done so with the Bible being irrelevant to the entire concept -- so then "Holy no matter what the Bible says to the contrary" then show us that this is the case.

if it can be shown that these are not traditions that arise in the dark ages after the first century - then show it.

In the case of Mark 7:6-13 Christ condemns holy tradition not found in the Bible - not simply because it was not in the Bible - but because it was unholy (by definition) - since it contradicted scripture.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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BobRyan

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Albion said:
Please let's not let "political correctness, historical style, keep us from understanding the issue here. The term "Dark Ages" is considered passé in some circles, just like we're not supposed to say B.C. and A.D. anymore, but that period of time we call the Dark Ages certainly was BAD!

it is a term everyone understands - has been in use for many decades if not centuries and conveys the point of a time of Biblical ignorance in general among the populace.
 
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BobRyan

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getting back to the topic, I would speak to the content, and I would suggest one practical Tradition and one dogmatic Tradition:

The Practical Tradition is liturgy. History shows us that Jews and Christians were highly liturgical people.

The dogmatic Tradition I will add to the list are the dogmas defined in the 7 Ecumenical Councils.

Or whatever we make up if one is not that concerned with what those councils made up.

Still it has be be vetted.
 
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