Evangelicalism ruinied me

Well I think I have realized that due to my bad experiences with Evangelicalism I can no longer have faith.

While I love Christ and traditional values I cannot extend that love to the physical world that I can only see and test by scientific means.

So because of my broken faith I cannot have faith that crazy stuff happened to earths timeline without massive proof. I do not have faith in miracles because they can/have been faked in the past.

So science freed me from Evangelicalism but my faith did not survive their betrayals intact.

So I will try to no longer comment on evolution since this forum is stricter than the church on this matter.

Sorry if I upset anyone.

This would have been a better place for the reply I just posted to you in Rus' thread.

Don't give up.

I think I am blessed to have come from the opposite point of view. My worldview was rational, measured, scientific - explained and explainable. That made it difficult for me to accept many matters of faith.

But then because of my work efforts, my "faith" in what I had always accepted as scientific fact and evidence was shaken, making the way for the possibility to accept other things that would seem to disagree with science.

Perhaps my path was the easier one, though it was painful for me to discard my whole life's effort and everything I had invested in it up to that point. (I have since realized the more balanced view that I need not discard everything - much is still true and valuable. But I no longer blindly accept any and all frameworks - which still prevents me from working in the field in many capacities.)

Perhaps that can be your way as well. When you discover inconsistencies, the tendency may be to lose faith (in religion, science, or whatever) and toss it all. But such an extreme move may not actually be necessary. I hope you will keep an open mind and keep sifting, look for Truth, and with God's help, I believe you will find that which is necessary.

God bless you!

When I entered into Orthodoxy, I DID believe in evolution 100%. I was on here arguing in its favor. I was firmly on board with Darwin and the boys as well as modern claims. I was convinced of science's theories about how many has developed. I got in an argument with a priest (not my priest) over it, spent plenty of time talking with parishioners and my own priest about it, read up on it, delved into the Fathers, prayed hard about it, and after about a year and a half, I was 100% convinced evolution is nonsense and is incompatible with the Orthodox faith. It only crystalized why Catholicism has sold out to modernity on such things with the way their catechism panders to it.

Why am I telling you this? Well, I'm doing so because you cannot let evolution run you away from Orthodoxy. Yes, I think evolution is bad theology. Yes, I don't recommend it. Yes, I think the theological implications of it suck rocks. But I would MUCH rather have you Orthodox, chrismated in the oil of Christ, taking Holy Communion, following Mother Church, and struggling with evolution and scientism than TO BAIL and join up the secular 'church' of skepticism, hopelessness, oblivion, and cold, empty animalism.

As others have pointed out, believing in evolution isn't grounds for your excommunication should you go Orthodox. Plenty of people buy into it. I don't. Most in here don't. And I'd be lying if I told you I hope you keep the pro-evolution stance, but I'd still rather have you a pro-evolution Orthodox Christian than a skeptical atheist with zero hope.

Also, I note how you say that science saved you from Evangelicalism. From where I'm standing, I'd much rather you REMAINED an evangelical who had faith in Christ Jesus than a skeptical pseudo-atheist 'grounded in science.' While evangelicalism is full of holes and issues and isn't part of the Orthodox faith, they DO have Scripture, baptism, faith, and some definite Truth in their religion. Much better than the religion of the petri dish and cynics.

Whether you realize it or not, you ARE in a religion.....scientism.

SeventhValley said:

Well I think I have realized that due to my bad experiences with Evangelicalism I can no longer have faith.

While I love Christ and traditional values I cannot extend that love to the physical world that I can only see and test by scientific means.

So because of my broken faith I cannot have faith that crazy stuff happened to earths timeline without massive proof. I do not have faith in miracles because they can/have been faked in the past.

So science freed me from Evangelicalism but my faith did not survive their betrayals intact.

So I will try to no longer comment on evolution since this forum is stricter than the church on this matter.

Sorry if I upset anyone.

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Sometimes it takes time. It took me a few years after leaving Evangelicalism to get to a place where I even considered having faith again. Baby steps.

" Holiness is in the arena of struggle, not perfection.

Holiness is in the struggle. "

- Archimandrite Athanasios (Mitilinaios )

gurneyhalleck1 said:

When I entered into Orthodoxy, I DID believe in evolution 100%. I was on here arguing in its favor. I was firmly on board with Darwin and the boys as well as modern claims. I was convinced of science's theories about how many has developed. I got in an argument with a priest (not my priest) over it, spent plenty of time talking with parishioners and my own priest about it, read up on it, delved into the Fathers, prayed hard about it, and after about a year and a half, I was 100% convinced evolution is nonsense and is incompatible with the Orthodox faith. It only crystalized why Catholicism has sold out to modernity on such things with the way their catechism panders to it.

Why am I telling you this? Well, I'm doing so because you cannot let evolution run you away from Orthodoxy. Yes, I think evolution is bad theology. Yes, I don't recommend it. Yes, I think the theological implications of it suck rocks. But I would MUCH rather have you Orthodox, chrismated in the oil of Christ, taking Holy Communion, following Mother Church, and struggling with evolution and scientism than TO BAIL and join up the secular 'church' of skepticism, hopelessness, oblivion, and cold, empty animalism.

As others have pointed out, believing in evolution isn't grounds for your excommunication should you go Orthodox. Plenty of people buy into it. I don't. Most in here don't. And I'd be lying if I told you I hope you keep the pro-evolution stance, but I'd still rather have you a pro-evolution Orthodox Christian than a skeptical atheist with zero hope.

Also, I note how you say that science saved you from Evangelicalism. From where I'm standing, I'd much rather you REMAINED an evangelical who had faith in Christ Jesus than a skeptical pseudo-atheist 'grounded in science.' While evangelicalism is full of holes and issues and isn't part of the Orthodox faith, they DO have Scripture, baptism, faith, and some definite Truth in their religion. Much better than the religion of the petri dish and cynics.

Whether you realize it or not, you ARE in a religion.....scientism.

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I am skeptical about everything including science. Science is a tool and is open to criticism and correction as more data comes in.

So I am no science drone

But skepticism is important especially when religion is involved. How many cults/corrupt priests would not have killed or abused people had rational thought been used more often.

Jesus championed this when he said how it was stupid to kill people for not observing the Sabbath because it was made for man. Jesus killed the ritualism of the Pharisees because it did nothing to make man holy. It was all superstition part of the corruption of sin.

Jesus connected us to God(which is just my opinion I realize I have no facts to back this connection up) but he used his authority while championing and reasonable faith.

Reason has brought us to the moon. It has also created weapons of destruction. It has allowed humankind to develop crops that feed more than the earth could naturally produce.

Join the fact finding of science with do unto others and you have started on the path to the Kingdom of God.

SeventhValley said:

I am skeptical about everything including science. Science is a tool and is open to criticism and correction as more data comes in.

So I am no science drone

But skepticism is important especially when religion is involved. How many cults/corrupt priests would not have killed or abused people had rational thought been used more often.

Jesus championed this when he said how it was stupid to kill people for not observing the Sabbath because it was made for man. Jesus killed the ritualism of the Pharisees because it did nothing to make man holy. It was all superstition part of the corruption of sin.

Jesus connected us to God(which is just my opinion I realize I have no facts to back this connection up) but he used his authority while championing and reasonable faith.

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Too bad ... it was in another forum I was reading where someone just posted about how Orthodoxy appealed to them because they were encouraged to be skeptics about certain things.

And I was just listening to a "Steve the Builder" podcast on Ancient Faith Radio that talked about his skepticism about miracles, and how he was encouraged because the Orthodox Church encouraged skepticism too, and took a more sober approach until things had been well-proven, preferring to err on the side of skepticism. (So as not to recognize anything demonic as potentially being from God, among other reasons.)

The Church doesn't seem to fear being scrutinized. My priest always encouraged asking questions. They are not even "afraid" to admit that Scripture might have errors - the Church is quite confident in what she knows, so can afford skepticism and examination.

That attitude appealed to me quite a bit, when I had feared I might be met with a "just believe us and don't ask any questions - because we say so" attitude.

Rebellion and mocking won't get you anywhere. But sincere inquiry is never rejected.

Jesus taught us that community is more important than riches. He taught is that celibacy and service to mankind is the best path. He taught us to not worry and that feeding the poor and helping others out without reward is better than what comes out of our mouths. The truth is Jesus is divine!

Kylissa said:

Too bad ... it was in another forum I was reading where someone just posted about how Orthodoxy appealed to them because they were encouraged to be skeptics about certain things.

And I was just listening to a "Steve the Builder" podcast on Ancient Faith Radio that talked about his skepticism about miracles, and how he was encouraged because the Orthodox Church encouraged skepticism too, and took a more sober approach until things had been well-proven, preferring to err on the side of skepticism. (So as not to recognize anything demonic as potentially being from God, among other reasons.)

The Church doesn't seem to fear being scrutinized. My priest always encouraged asking questions. They are not even "afraid" to admit that Scripture might have errors - the Church is quite confident in what she knows, so can afford skepticism and examination.

That attitude appealed to me quite a bit, when I had feared I might be met with a "just believe us and don't ask any questions - because we say so" attitude.

Rebellion and mocking won't get you anywhere. But sincere inquiry is never rejected.

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I wish that was the attitude here but apparently I am a heretic because I believe in theistic evolution(which is approved of by both the OCA and Antiochian churches).

Indeed! Kylissa, you hit the nail on the head, sister! One thing I've heard on MANY occasions by folks is that they were turned off by Catholicism by all these "miracles" and "visions" and constantly seeing Mary or Jesus in potato chips or tree bark and that you have to believe in all these miracles of suns disappearing and what not.

Orthodoxy isn't based on all these metaphysical events so much as the theology of Scripture, the Fathers, and the faith. There ARE wondrous miracles in Orthodoxy like the myrrh-streaming Hawaain Theotokos icon! But they are not essential to the faith.

Orthodoxy has been skeptical about many things from purgatory to some miracles that were dubious to things like indulgences and on and on. In fact, the very reality that Orthodoxy refused to accept papal claims that were fairly outrageous shows a "healthy" skepticism in itself!

you're dead on here

Kylissa said:

Too bad ... it was in another forum I was reading where someone just posted about how Orthodoxy appealed to them because they were encouraged to be skeptics about certain things.

And I was just listening to a "Steve the Builder" podcast on Ancient Faith Radio that talked about his skepticism about miracles, and how he was encouraged because the Orthodox Church encouraged skepticism too, and took a more sober approach until things had been well-proven, preferring to err on the side of skepticism. (So as not to recognize anything demonic as potentially being from God, among other reasons.)

The Church doesn't seem to fear being scrutinized. My priest always encouraged asking questions. They are not even "afraid" to admit that Scripture might have errors - the Church is quite confident in what she knows, so can afford skepticism and examination.

That attitude appealed to me quite a bit, when I had feared I might be met with a "just believe us and don't ask any questions - because we say so" attitude.

Rebellion and mocking won't get you anywhere. But sincere inquiry is never rejected.

Click to expand...

SeventhValley said:

I wish that was the attitude here but apparently I am a heretic because I believe in theistic evolution(which is approved of by both the OCA and Antiochian churches).

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I believe it is the history of certain interactions here (which I did not read and am not commenting on) that have made that a particular tension in this forum.

Productive discussion is probably possible, but not in this forum at this time.

It's actually quite important to me as well, but not worth disturbing the peace to discuss. Perhaps you can sit down with a priest or someone with an interest who can discuss it with you?


Beginnings and most especially endings are not things to push one away from the Church though - it is the life we live in the here and now that make up our faith and is important - imo.

SeventhValley said:

Well I think I have realized that due to my bad experiences with Evangelicalism I can no longer have faith.

While I love Christ and traditional values I cannot extend that love to the physical world that I can only see and test by scientific means.

So because of my broken faith I cannot have faith that crazy stuff happened to earths timeline without massive proof. I do not have faith in miracles because they can/have been faked in the past.

So science freed me from Evangelicalism but my faith did not survive their betrayals intact.

So I will try to no longer comment on evolution since this forum is stricter than the church on this matter.

Sorry if I upset anyone.

Click to expand...

You shouldn't cease to post, nor should you censor your views for any other poster's sake. You are important as a person and as far as I'm concerned you are as welcome as anyone else to be a part of TAW. I don't agree with all your views on evolution, nor do I agree with your views in general as far as I know, even if you and me are probably a bunch of theistic evolutionists to some others. But I don't have to agree with you, nor you with me. Love is greater than agreement. Persons are greater and more important than uniform intellectual cleanliness is.

It is only natural for a person to go through a period of crisis as a result of cancelling the threatening consequences of thought crime according to a false view of what it means to be a Christian, not to mention the disenchantment when a person has seen a bluff. To the extent that I can, I'd like to be a part of a supportive network if that's what you need. TAW could serve that purpose to some extent, if most of the posters are ready for it.

Thanks, Gurney.

I didn't get too far into looking into Catholicism's treatment of miracles, but I have heard a few things that didn't set well with me.

It's funny, though, on the opposite end of the spectrum, Lutheranism seems a bit TOO skeptical and intellectual for me. I'm very inclined to intellectualism myself, but if the metaphysical is completely removed (and I'm not saying Lutherans go that far - they don't) ... but if it goes further than I am comfortable with, it becomes too sterile.

It was almost like a Goldilocks thing for me. Lutheranism was too hard, Catholicism was too soft, but Orthodoxy was "just right".

I find the Church to be very balanced in many ways. And for that I am thankful. But yes, there is a healthy dose of skepticism, and I find that essential as well.

Perfect recipe. To my thinking and experience, anyway.

Sorry, Seventh, I feel as though we've derailed your thread a bit. But some of this is kind of to your point.

gurneyhalleck1 said:

Indeed! Kylissa, you hit the nail on the head, sister! One thing I've heard on MANY occasions by folks is that they were turned off by Catholicism by all these "miracles" and "visions" and constantly seeing Mary or Jesus in potato chips or tree bark and that you have to believe in all these miracles of suns disappearing and what not.

Orthodoxy isn't based on all these metaphysical events so much as the theology of Scripture, the Fathers, and the faith. There ARE wondrous miracles in Orthodoxy like the myrrh-streaming Hawaain Theotokos icon! But they are not essential to the faith.

Orthodoxy has been skeptical about many things from purgatory to some miracles that were dubious to things like indulgences and on and on. In fact, the very reality that Orthodoxy refused to accept papal claims that were fairly outrageous shows a "healthy" skepticism in itself!

you're dead on here

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No, apparently you're being overly-dramatic here, Seventh. I've made it clear that the vast majority of Orthodox DO NOT accept any form of evolution as compatible with the faith if you read the Fathers, the saints, hierarchs, and our best theologians. But never have I nor anyone else in here called you a heretic or implied it. You're not a heretic.

But here's the thing...have you considered reading the other side of the debate? When I was pro-evolution, I had the "you're anti-science!!!!" anger toward anyone who dared challenge it. Have you tried reading the Father Seraphim Rose/Hiermonk Damascene book about Genesis and Evolution? I'm reading it right now. Frankly, someone as intelligent and convicted over the subject as yourself would be a WONDERFUL resource to bounce thoughts off of while reading this. His reasoning, data, information, and theology in the book are quite powerful. I'd like to hear your responses to him.

Again, you're not a heretic, but I think evolution is bad joo-joo theologically speaking. Yes, several churches are ok with theistic evolution.

SeventhValley said:

I wish that was the attitude here but apparently I am a heretic because I believe in theistic evolution(which is approved of by both the OCA and Antiochian churches).

Click to expand...

SeventhValley said:

I wish that was the attitude here but apparently I am a heretic because I believe in theistic evolution(which is approved of by both the OCA and Antiochian churches).

Click to expand...

Some do very ardently assert their own opinion and are trying to take Church Fathers hostage along with everything they can grab, without offering a source, a quote, or any reference, let alone any consideration at all for the intent and meaning of what others may have to say. Some are revolting at the mention of the mere word evolution, no matter what's implied by it. It can be very annoying. But rest assured, people who act that way have a much worse personal problem than what you have.

Erth said:

Some do very ardently assert their own opinion and are trying to take Church Fathers hostage along with everything they can grab, without offering a source, a quote, or any reference, let alone any consideration at all for the intent and meaning of what others may have to say. Some are revolting at the mention of the mere word evolution, no matter what's implied by it. It can be very annoying. But rest assured, people who act that way have a much worse personal problem than what you have.

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Nothing is to be gained by insulting anyone ... and there is the risk of developing into flaming. Better to focus on positive discussion, which it seems you are interested in supporting Seventh. That is commendable.

just for clarification, one priest's response on a Q and A page does not amount to an entire jurisdictions' approval.

Kylissa said:

Nothing is to be gained by insulting anyone ... and there is the risk of developing into flaming. Better to focus on positive discussion, which it seems you are interested in supporting Seventh. That is commendable.

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Of course, but that doesn't mean that invoking fathers lightly is in any way excusable, if you ask me. Should I be afraid of insulting anyone just because I have the courage to say that I don't think that is alright, or what is it you are implying?

jckstraw72 said:

just for clarification, one priest's response on a Q and A page does not amount to an entire jurisdictions' approval.

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The Antiochians are ok with:

CREATION | Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese