Brutal iconoclasm is ripping the heart out of Catholicism...

Michie · Dec 9, 2014

LOL! "Buttsitting".

Alonso_Castillo · Dec 10, 2014

Anhelyna said:
Alonso - be careful please

We Eastern Catholics have Icons and not statues [ as do our Orthodox brethren ]

Does that make us hypocrites ?

¿Do you reject statues of the Latin church? or ¿Do you just keep a tradition of icons? there is the difference. You can say that you keep your tradition but without condemning the statues of the Latin Church and that doesn't make you hypocrites. But in the case of Orthodoxy they reject statues not for tradition but for interpretation and they reject them as a latin heresy.

¿What position do you stand for?

brewmama · Dec 10, 2014

Alonso_Castillo said:
¿Do you reject statues of the Latin church? or ¿Do you just keep a tradition of icons? there is the difference. You can say that you keep your tradition but without condemning the statues of the Latin Church and that doesn't make you hypocrites. But in the case of Orthodoxy they reject statues not for tradition but for interpretation and they reject them as a latin heresy.

¿What position do you stand for?

They may reject them in their church (we do not, we have one of the Virgin

Mary,) but they don't condemn them. Why do you have such a chip on your shoulder?

Anhelyna · Dec 10, 2014

Alonso_Castillo

We do not condemn those who have statues - we don't , nor do most Orthodox Christians - because statues are not our tradition.

Would you go against the statement of St John Paul I who told us to return to our traditional practices ?

wondrousgnat · Dec 10, 2014

I have been in an Eastern Rite church which had icons and no statues. The Sign of the Cross was in reverse. A little adjustment on my part but I have no problem with it.

Alonso_Castillo · Dec 11, 2014

brewmama said:
They may reject them in their church (we do not, we have one of the Virgin

Mary,) but they don't condemn them. Why do you have such a chip on your shoulder?

I have visited many orthodox sites where I have read those statements.

KENIK · Dec 12, 2014

Speaking as a Friend (Quaker), I would again suggest that the austerity in ornamentation that is appearing in the Catholic church is linked to the culture of contemplative prayer that is held in high respect by the hierarchy and many of its devout.

Following Teresa of Avila, many devout Catholics do attain to the Prayer of Simplicity and even Recollective Prayer which leads to the mind of the devout to shun the outward displays of worship found in the senses and other distractions from prayer, because distractions in prayer are ultimately rooted in sin. I suspect, for these Catholics, there is a dim view of a clinging to superficial vocal, albeit, liturgical prayer that does not go deeper.

As a non-Catholic, I would feel more welcome in a plain Catholic church instead of a highly ornamented one that would make me feel alien to it.

seashale76 · Dec 12, 2014

KENIK said:
Speaking as a Friend (Quaker), I would again suggest that the austerity in ornamentation that is appearing in the Catholic church is linked to the culture of contemplative prayer that is held in high respect by the hierarchy and many of its devout.

Following Teresa of Avila, many devout Catholics do attain to the Prayer of Simplicity and even Recollective Prayer which leads to the mind of the devout to shun the outward displays of worship found in the senses and other distractions from prayer, because distractions in prayer are ultimately rooted in sin. I suspect, for these Catholics, there is a dim view of a clinging to superficial vocal, albeit, liturgical prayer that does not go deeper.

As a non-Catholic, I would feel more welcome in a plain Catholic church instead of a highly ornamented one that would make me feel alien to it.

Pure balderdash. The very idea that you would call liturgical prayer superficial and not deep is offensive- and that you would come here to spout that is awful.

Meanwhile the rest of us feel as if something critical is missing in plain churches. Plain churches are cold, empty places, with no windows to heaven.

Anhelyna · Dec 12, 2014

Thanks for your input here Seashale. Being honest, I was trying to think how I could say something politely about Kenik's post , which to me was offensive.

I really do wish that people would not come in here and try and tell us that our traditional practices are wrong - albeit in their eyes.

GoingByzantine · Dec 12, 2014

I don't think KENIK was trying to be rude, from his/her quacker perspective...plain = normal.

I do think KENIK is misinformed about liturgical practices, however.

Angeldove97 · Dec 12, 2014

I miss my Russian Orthodox churches because of how bare some Catholic churches are. We do not have any Eastern rite parishes near by though.

KENIK · Dec 12, 2014

seashale76 said:
Pure balderdash. The very idea that you would call liturgical prayer superficial and not deep is offensive- and that you would come here to spout that is awful.

Meanwhile the rest of us feel as if something critical is missing in plain churches. Plain churches are cold, empty places, with no windows to heaven.

Please do not be quick to judgement of others. I did not call liturgical prayer as superficial and not deep. I would suggest that your church desires a deeper prayer beyond mere vocal prayer.

The tinsel of a setting is nothing in God's eyes.

KENIK · Dec 12, 2014

Anhelyna said:
Thanks for your input here Seashale. Being honest, I was trying to think how I could say something politely about Kenik's post , which to me was offensive.

I really do wish that people would not come in here and try and tell us that our traditional practices are wrong - albeit in their eyes.

Please do not be quick to judgement or to draw offense. I am not saying any traditional practices within your church are wrong. I would suggest that the highly traditional form of contemplative prayer has something to do with the ornamentation or the lack of it in your churches buildings. Nothing more.

KENIK · Dec 12, 2014

GoingByzantine said:
I don't think KENIK was trying to be rude, from his/her quacker perspective...plain = normal.

I do think KENIK is misinformed about liturgical practices, however.

Thank you for the perception that I was not meaning to be rude.

I do not enter into liturgical practices. I am interested in contemplative prayer and the rich tradition of Catholicism and Orthodoxy in respect to it.

I would suggest that if prayer remains merely vocal, at a certain point, it ceases to be prayer but becomes something else, merely the repetition of noise.

Sumwear · Dec 12, 2014

KENIK said:
Please do not be quick to judgement of others. I did not call liturgical prayer as superficial and not deep. I would suggest that your church desires a deeper prayer beyond mere vocal prayer.

The tinsel of a setting is nothing in God's eyes.

fasting [not the I'll quit soda for 40 days but let's live off what we grow like the capuchin style of fasting], meditation, the rosaries, chanting, singing. CONTEMPLATIVE PRAYER:

catechism 2700

Through his Word, God speaks to man. By words, mental or vocal, our prayer takes flesh. Yet it is most important that the heart should be present to him to whom we are speaking in prayer: "Whether or not our prayer is heard depends not on the number of words, but on the fervor of our souls."

Anhelyna · Dec 12, 2014

Kenik - you said

many devout Catholics do attain to the Prayer of Simplicity and even Recollective Prayer which leads to the mind of the devout to shun the outward displays of worship found in the senses and other distractions from prayer, because distractions in prayer are ultimately rooted in sin.

HUH ? You mean that when I pray before one of the Icons in my Church the beauty and the truth I see in the Icon is a distraction from prayer ? And distractions in prayer are ultimately rooted in sin ?

Please note I did say pray before, not pray to [ just so we have no confusion ] .

I am well aware of the tradition of contemplative prayer , but not all practice it.

wondrousgnat · Dec 12, 2014

I believe Kenik is viewing prayers from his perspective. What his experience has been.
Yesterday I went to church to pray the Rosary before the Eucharist. That is from my perspective and of course Kenik, as well as many Catholics, cannot relate to that.

Basil the Great · Dec 12, 2014

I was not aware of this trend in Catholic Churches away from statues. This is interesting. Has this been done to make the RCC more attractive to potential Protestant converts? I can think of no other explanation.

topcare · Dec 12, 2014

KENIK said:
Please do not be quick to judgement of others. I did not call liturgical prayer as superficial and not deep. I would suggest that your church desires a deeper prayer beyond mere vocal prayer.

The tinsel of a setting is nothing in God's eyes.

There is the problem. The assumption that because prayer is vocal it is not deep, that is poppycock. The Liturgy is beautiful and much more deeper than any protestant service. Do not assume just because there is beautiful vocal prayer it is not deep prayer

Alonso_Castillo · Dec 15, 2014

I guess I understand Kenik, He is right about feeling a bit strange to catholic churches plenty of statues or icons, coming from a protestant background where the teaching against images is so reinforced. It is true that praying to God does not require images, but in the catholic faith we make the images and the icons to tell of the invisible reallity of heaven.

Something that many protestants are not taught is about the fact that there were images in the Temple of Salomon:

1 Kings 6, 12 - 38

{6:12} “Concerning this house, which you are building: if
you will walk in my precepts, and carry out my judgments,
and keep all my commandments, advancing by them, I will
confirm my word to you, which I spoke to your father David.
{6:13} And I will dwell in the midst of the sons of Israel, and
I will not forsake my people Israel.” {6:14} And so, Solomon
built the house, and finished it. {6:15} And he built the walls
of the house, on the interior, with panels of cedar, from the
floor of the house, to the top of the walls, and even to the
ceiling. He covered it with cedar wood on the interior. And
he overlaid the floor of the house with panels of spruce.
{6:16} And he built panels of cedar, of twenty cubits, at the
back part of the temple, from the floor even to the top. And
he made the inner house of the oracle as the Holy of Holies.
{6:17} And the temple itself, before the doors of the oracle,
was forty cubits. {6:18} And the entire house was clothed
with cedar on the interior, having its turnings and junctures
artfully wrought, with carvings projecting outward.
Everything was clothed with panels of cedar. And no stone at
all was able to be seen in the wall. {6:19} Now he made the
oracle in the middle of the house, in the inner part, so that he
might station the ark of the covenant of the Lord there.
{6:20} And the oracle held twenty cubits in length, and
twenty cubits in width, and twenty cubits in height. And he
covered and clothed it with the purest gold. Then, too, he
193
clothed the altar in cedar. {6:21} Also, the house before the
oracle, he covered with the purest gold, and he fastened the
plates with nails of gold. {6:22} And there was nothing in the
temple that was not covered with gold. Moreover, the entire
altar of the oracle he overlaid with gold. {6:23} And he made
in the oracle two cherubim from wood of the olive tree, of ten
cubits in height. {6:24} One wing of a cherub was five cubits,
and the other wing of a cherub was five cubits, that is, having
ten cubits from the summit of one wing even to the summit of
the other wing. {6:25} Likewise, the second cherub was ten
cubits. And the measure was equal and the work was one, in
the two cherubim, {6:26} that is, one cherub had a height of
ten cubits, and similarly the second cherub. {6:27} And he
stationed the cherubim in the middle of the inner temple.
And the cherubim extended their wings, and the wing of the
one was touching the wall, and the wing of the second cherub
was touching the other wall. But the other wings, in the
middle of the temple, were touching each another. {6:28} He
also overlaid the cherubim with gold. {6:29} And all the
walls of the temple all around he engraved with diverse
carvings and turnings. And he made in them cherubim, and
palm trees, and various images, as if these were projecting out,
and going forth from, the wall. {6:30} Then, too, the floor of
the house he overlaid with gold within and without.
{6:31} And at the entrance of the oracle, he made little doors,
from wood of the olive tree, with posts of five corners.
{6:32} And there were two doors, from wood of the olive tree.
And he carved upon them pictures of cherubim, and images
of palm trees, and very prominent figures. And he overlaid
these with gold. And he covered the cherubim, as well as the
palm trees and the other things, with gold. {6:33} And he
made, at the entrance of the temple, posts from wood of the
olive tree, with four corners, {6:34} and two doors, from
wood of the spruce tree, on the other side. And each door
was double, and so it opened by folding upon itself.
{6:35} And he carved cherubim, and palm trees, and very
prominent engravings. And he covered everything with gold
plates, worked to be perfectly square. {6:36} And he built the
inner atrium with three rows of polished stones, and one row
of cedar wood. {6:37} In the fourth year, the house of the
Lord was founded, in the month of Ziv. {6:38} And in the
eleventh year, in the month Bul, which is the eighth month,
the house was perfected in all its works and in all its

equipment. And he built it for seven years.

Brutal iconoclasm is ripping the heart out of Catholicism...

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