Brutal iconoclasm is ripping the heart out of Catholicism...

All of my aunts, uncles, and cousins are Catholic. Every time I've gone to their churches for weddings and baptisms, I feel like I'm in a generic Protestant church. What's worse is that my cousin's parish has the beautiful old building sitting unused next to the 70s nightmare.

I always liked the statues, candles and alters and stained glass windows. I am not a fan of the newer more sterile churches. Churches used to be living museums.

I wouldn't say a break in sacred tradition occurs, such a statement assumes that statues and icons were handed down to us via the Apostles. However, at least until the 4th Century there is little written record of statues or icons playing an important role in churches.

Things like ripping out altars are indeed a violation.

As a Friend (Quaker), I would venture a view upon this. There are many places where Catholicism and Quakerism converge, and some of it has to do with spirituality.

I would suggest the austerity of newer and remodeled Catholic churches may have much to do with the practice of contemplative prayer among the hierarchy of the Catholic church and many of its devout. They do not, on the whole, like the distraction of the things in this world in prayer, for focus should be upon the Lord, and not upon the ornateness of a place of worship.

There are many ornate places of worship, such as in Europe, where there was little prayer. There was only sight-seeing and chattering, even during the times of communion. I suspect the bishops and priests came to dislike the ornateness and have sought again by means of an increased austerity to focus attention upon the altar. I guess that they do not like the idea of so many churches becoming de facto museums and places of theatrical ritual.

^In Orthodoxy and in Catholicism- we use ALL of our senses in worship. We do not divorce the physical from the spiritual. Ornate places of worship are meant to reflect the kingdom of heaven. A lack of ornamentation doesn't magically help one concentrate during prayer.

Sad to see this, it is the awareness of an individual as to how one prays & worships God. The icons & incense should, as Seashale said, engage our senses alongside our awareness keeping our intellects within the presence of God.

Of course you can celebrate Jesus in almost any kind of church. But when I go to church I still want to feel like I am in one. I think many Protestant churches are also beautiful (in the town I lived in for 40 years one of the most beautiful was a Methodist church but the abortion clinic was across the street and pro-lifers weren't allowed to park there).
Maybe there are problems with making new churches beautiful. I wonder what the Crystal Cathedral will look like now that it will a Catholic Cathedral.
A few years ago an arsonist burned down St Michaels church in Wheaton but when I looked at the new one I thought it was quite well done. But it proves, as Fr Pacwa once said that classical churches are still possible.

My current parish is deemed too small so a new one is planned. But I have heard no information about what it will look like.

seashale76 said:

^In Orthodoxy and in Catholicism- we use ALL of our senses in worship. We do not divorce the physical from the spiritual. Ornate places of worship are meant to reflect the kingdom of heaven. A lack of ornamentation doesn't magically help one concentrate during prayer.

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I agree. In my church there is Statues of Mary, Joseph and the Apostles, and for many other Saints. Everytime I got to Mass and the Priest lefts up the Host, while everyone kneeling, I see the satutes of all saints and think this is Heaven, only in reality they are kneeling with us and adoring Jesus in the Eucharist. Although this happens on every Holy Mass, with or without statues but their existance helps us a lot. I know I'm not the only one who thinks so.

Vatican II didn't say "do away with all statues and beauty". That is what someone THOUGHT it said, but it isn't true. Unfortunately, at least many folks in the Church in the U.S. think it did. And so we are "paying" for that with the sterile churches until someone is brave enough to actually read the Vatican II documents and find out that it didn't call for "iconoclasm". Of course in the meantime, quite a few Catholics of the Latin rite have had to attend Eastern Catholic churches where there IS no sterile atmosphere--no false "spirit of Vatican II".

It is not just the art and architecture. It is also the way people worship. While I don't see the necessity of dressing up some can be too casual. I remember a few times some years back seeing young girls in short shorts and halter tops. At the time I was young and single and wondered if I can still go up for communion because I gave them a second look.

And then there are kneelers. About 10 years ago I visited a remodeled church and there were no kneelers. I felt there should at least be a section for those who want to kneel. Shortly after I visited a different church and realized that I was the only one kneeling and a lady near me was giving me a dirty look.
In the parish I belong to some do and some don't. Mostly it is us older ones who kneel, including one who is 96. (I understand that for health reasons some cannot.) Many of those in their 20s and 30s don't. And those who don't are so disrespectful of others that they lean all the way back crowding out those behind them who do want to kneel. Here I am getting angry at the next person in church while the Eucharist is still in my mouth.

If Catholics Want icons and images in the Church, Ask the Priest for them, We are catholics we are not iconoclasts as Orthodox or as Protestants, Orthodox are hypocrits, they say that they have icons but not statues, that is hypocresy. And Protestans claim to obey Exodus 20, 4 And yet they enjoy photography, paintings and And watch computers, TV, and any sort of image displayers even when the comandment of the Old Covenant was against any image, not only God's image.

If Catholics want images of of The Lord, Our Lady, Of the Saints, or The Angels. Ask for them in your church, ask for a prominent place in the Church to place candles.

It is annoying to read this kind of childish arguments agains Vatican II, if we kept making the churches as they were made before we wouldn't reach the speed of growth of population and the churches would be far from the houses of the new settlements. In My country, where we are more than 100 million catholics more than 88% of population, our cities grow very fast and the only way to reach those new settlements with the Sacraments and the Parish life is by making churches with fewer resources, and that implies low decoration, but you can talk with the priest of your parrish and ask him to place an nice image of Our Lady or the saints and help him with money to built a respectable place for it.

But this is also necesary to remember that Vatican II didn't forbid images, and we also have to be clear that Images and Icons are not just for Decoration.



We Catolics are heirs of the Most wonderful decorated churches in the World we just need to take our skills to work and make again the greatest churches of our ages, We don't have rivals in making churches which take the bread away:




In my Country, the modern churches are poor in decoration but they are more numerous and reach more people, for example in Guadalajara the diosesis has more than 620 parishes not counting the chapels. And most of them were built less than 60 years ago, if we were not allowed to built more new parishes with few images we would have built less than half we did.

This small church is an example of the needs of our people, they built this parish to have the sacraments. This is a very modest church.

wondrousgnat said:

And then there are kneelers. About 10 years ago I visited a remodeled church and there were no kneelers. I felt there should at least be a section for those who want to kneel. Shortly after I visited a different church and realized that I was the only one kneeling and a lady near me was giving me a dirty look.
In the parish I belong to some do and some don't. Mostly it is us older ones who kneel, including one who is 96. (I understand that for health reasons some cannot.) Many of those in their 20s and 30s don't. And those who don't are so disrespectful of others that they lean all the way back crowding out those behind them who do want to kneel. Here I am getting angry at the next person in church while the Eucharist is still in my mouth.

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Re: kneeling -

I have found that this varies from parish to parish, even within the same city. When I was in university, the university parish did not kneel (and had no kneelers available), but another parish a couple km away did kneel and did have kneelers. There was always confusion among the population because new students would come and would kneel while the rest of the congregation would stand. The argument was that standing is the oldest practice - which we see preserved in the Christian East - but that argument doesn't sit right for me because we are a Western rite. Our tradition developed differently, along with our spirituality.

Anyway. It is also interesting when traveling and staying in a city with a lot of tourism - the same confusion happens. Half the congregation kneeling, the other half standing, no one knowing what to do.

I'm a fan of kneeling for western rites but am perfectly happy standing when present at an eastern rite liturgy.

Alonso_Castillo said:

If Catholics Want icons and images in the Church, Ask the Priest for them, We are catholics we are not iconoclasts as Orthodox or as Protestants, Orthodox are hypocrits, they say that they have icons but not statues, that is hypocresy.

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Why so hostile? We are not iconoclasts, and just because we don't have statues doesn't make us hypocrites.

eastcoast_bsc said:

I always liked the statues, candles and alters and stained glass windows. I am not a fan of the newer more sterile churches. Churches used to be living museums.

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Same here. And I'm note even used to praying before statues, so tend to stay in my pew!

I think the decor in our churches should be closer to the warmth of kitsch, as they used to be, than the minimalist austerity favoured by the toffs for their homes here in the UK. We're one great big, crazy family with tastes to suit, extending from elegance to kitsch, but not minimalist austerity. I think Jesus, like most of the kindest people I've met, tended towards the kitsch, judging from his Sacred Heart depiction. Heck his family were an Anawim, weren't they? Trailer residents!

Anyway, Michie, the end of the article suggest thing are not as bad as they might seem now. We shall see.

Alonso - be careful please

We Eastern Catholics have Icons and not statues [ as do our Orthodox brethren ]

Does that make us hypocrites ?

One thing that I think is absolutely pivotal is an altar, statues (in the West) and icons (in the East and West) are plusses...but not necessary. An altar on the other hand is very important.

The parishes in my experience have people who kneel or sit on their butts. I am reminded that in some parishes people stand but that shows more respect for the Eucharist than buttsitting.