Would you do this sacrifice?

You have a classic Greek mythology tragedy setting.

Definitely #1, the problem of the world is not as important, all you need to do is try to get it better, but for Christians, Jesus has said his domain is not of this world, but in heaven. The world will also has problems no matter what because of human nature.


For #2, Read Faust, who made a pack with devil to solve the problem of the world. It was an interesting story.

No human has the power to solve the problems brought about by our destructive emotions, and there's a lot of suffering caused by that alone. But if for the sake of argument I could turn people into cheerful zombies I wouldn't. If we learn, we see it for ourselves and we really have something as free conscious persons. No one should want to take that away from someone.

I wouldn't ask someone else to suffer forever just so I could have my problems removed.

Even Jesus didn't have to suffer forever for us. "He endured the cross for the joy that was set before Him." (Heb. 12:2).

dcalling said:

For #2, Read Faust, who made a pack with devil to solve the problem of the world. It was an interesting story.

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The bolded part is NOT an element in any of the many versions of the Faust legend. His motivation is a lust for knowledge and pleasure, and entirely self-serving.

The original folk tale has distinctly anti-intellectual elements, selling the message that a quest for knowledge is essentially evil, and that all "them uppity folks with their book larnin' and stuff" are suspicious.


And I've got to ask: how can you be so selfish? Seriously, if you feel that your faith is all about saving your own behind and securing a cozy place in the blessed afterlife, then you are the worst sort of egotistical opportunist.

I'm not sure that I can base a decision on the information available. Why am I being forced to make such a decision? Is such a God Evil?

Not knowing that, I think that being tortured for the rest of eternity is a significant enough drawback that it would incline me towards avoiding that option if I could do that and retain my integrity.

If God is Evil, then I might very well accept the torture. Yes, I'm being honest.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Jane_the_Bane said:

And I've got to ask: how can you be so selfish? Seriously, if you feel that your faith is all about saving your own behind and securing a cozy place in the blessed afterlife, then you are the worst sort of egotistical opportunist.

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I know this wasn't directed at me, but I will respond by saying that I am done with this subforum. This subforum could be a peacemaking venture between wordviews but you are spreading your poison on every thread. I hope you find peace.

prov1810 said:

I know this wasn't directed at me, but I will respond by saying that I am done with this subforum. This subforum could be a peacemaking venture between wordviews but you are spreading your poison on every thread. I hope you find peace.

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Poison? You are over-reacting. She asked a valid question.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Jane_the_Bane said:

And I've got to ask: how can you be so selfish? Seriously, if you feel that your faith is all about saving your own behind and securing a cozy place in the blessed afterlife, then you are the worst sort of egotistical opportunist.

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I do admit I am selfish. I can't deny it, it is in my nature.

But Christian faith is not a selfish faith, as everyone can see many others who are much better than me set out to poorest part of the world to spread. My actions and thoughts does not show the full characters of my faith, due to my short comings.

AskTheFamily said:

Suppose you were given a choice.

Continue living as a normal person, die, don't come back, and when you die, you enter heaven provided you weren't super evil.

The other choice is that you are given powers and so much knowledge and given ability to live for a very long time (like 30 000 years) and you would be able to solve all the world's problems with your powers and knowledge but the downside to it, is that once you die, you will be tortured for eternity. The torture will be severe as the severest description of hell possible.

Would you live on normally or would you do the sacrifice for the knowledge, powers, and lifespan and solve the world's problems?

Be honest.

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Live a normal life and die. It's not my place to solve the world's problems. If God wants my help, then I should at the very least be thanked for my assistance, not tortured for all eternity. There is no logical scenario where that should/could/would be the case!

I would not agree to eternal torment no matter the benefit. The eternal part breaks the deal because no matter how good I did in life, the scales are not balanced. I get the short end of the stick.

Choice #1. The only real choice is do I want 30,000 years of happiness or an eternity of happiness. Solving the worlds problems wouldn't include solving the problem of death so anything good that came out of it would only be temporary.

football5680 said:

Choice #1. The only real choice is do I want 30,000 years of happiness or an eternity of happiness. Solving the worlds problems wouldn't include solving the problem of death so anything good that came out of it would only be temporary.

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Just to be clear, are you saying that helping others just isn't important compared to your happiness? Or is it merely the time issue?


eudaimonia,

Mark

I don't think I would want to live 30,000 years to begin with. Eternal torment sounds lame too. I am pretty selfish as well so solving the worlds problems outside my own small world doesn't really appeal to me either.

Eudaimonist said:

Just to be clear, are you saying that helping others just isn't important compared to your happiness? Or is it merely the time issue?


eudaimonia,

Mark

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It is merely the time issue. Helping others is a great thing to do and we should strive to put the needs of others ahead of our own but we must also weigh the cost.

When we put the needs of others above our own we must ask what is the perceived benefit to the other person and can we cover what it will cost us. In this case the benefit is temporary while the cost is eternal. The cost is infinitely greater than the benefit.

football5680 said:

When we put the needs of others above our own we must ask what is the perceived benefit to the other person and can we cover what it will cost us. In this case the benefit is temporary while the cost is eternal. The cost is infinitely greater than the benefit.

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Okay, then how would you react to the following scenario:

You are given the option to give up your own seat in heaven in order for someone else to gain heaven. You will get hell instead.

Do you sacrifice your eternal happiness so that someone else will gain eternal happiness.

If that isn't interesting enough, let's say that your sacrifice is for two people to gain eternal happiness.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Eudaimonist said:

Okay, then how would you react to the following scenario:

You are given the option to give up your own seat in heaven in order for someone else to gain heaven. You will get hell instead.

Do you sacrifice your eternal happiness so that someone else will gain eternal happiness.

If that isn't interesting enough, let's say that your sacrifice is for two people to gain eternal happiness.


eudaimonia,

Mark

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With the preface that Judaism generally doesn't have a Hell for people to go to...

I wouldn't take the deal. Their life and the consequences of that life are their own just as my life and the consequences for my life are my own.

AskTheFamily said:

Suppose you were given a choice.

Continue living as a normal person, die, don't come back, and when you die, you enter heaven provided you weren't super evil.

The other choice is that you are given powers and so much knowledge and given ability to live for a very long time (like 30 000 years) and you would be able to solve all the world's problems with your powers and knowledge but the downside to it, is that once you die, you will be tortured for eternity. The torture will be severe as the severest description of hell possible.

Would you live on normally or would you do the sacrifice for the knowledge, powers, and lifespan and solve the world's problems?

Be honest.

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Honestly, I'm unable to put my mind around any of this. I suspect it's because it doesn't fit into the paradyne of reality through which I live life. Hell, Knowledge, Heaven, Power, Evil? I have no idea what those are.

.

I am not sure what kind of man or woman would choose option number 2.

I know I never would, and I wouldn't expect anyone else to take that kind of burden either..

As far as suffering goes, the suffering of the world is finite a guy being tortured forever is not. Really how fair would that be..

I've had a similar question I like to post from time to time.

If God gave you the decision to either choose yourself to burn in hell for all eternity, or instead all of humankind, which would you choose?

I think that is a tougher question.

There are several critical factors involved in this hypothetical:

1.) An evaluation of short-term gain vs. long-term gain.

Although homo sapiens is TERRIBLE at evaluating and reacting to long-term threats whose effects aren't immediately felt (cf. overconsumption and global warming) as a collective species, many individuals are quite capable of valuing long-term benefit over short-term gain.
As such, the hypothetical has very little to offer: what are 30,000 years compared to eternity?

2. Personal gain vs. altruism:
I suppose the OP wanted to suggest that you really ARE able to better the lot of everybody else, and that you basically make a noble sacrifice in order for everybody else to be happy - akin to Bodhisattvas turning away from Nirvana to save others.
However, this does not explain why you'd be eternally tortured for it afterwards, which leads to the third factor.

3. The moral character of the deity forcing such a choice upon you:

As it is, the deity who presents you with this dilemma seems needlessly cruel to the point of being a monster:

Like a dictator who makes you a "gift": have him execute ten people you know and love well, or execute a hundred strangers - you choose!

Fortunately, more often than not your own long-term gain is inseparable from that of others, as egotistical behaviour is typically fixated on personal short-term benefit that goes against the interests of others: damaging the community, wasting resources, breaking society, hoarding wealth to the detriment of others, etc.

I keep wondering if the scenario would have a different impact on me if I were a Gnostic or a Satanist. Where it's understood that the Creator God is basically evil, and that mankind really could benefit from the supernatural actions of one person empowered to do so. That might explain how this person could be both the saviour of all, and suffer eternal punishment for their actions!

Or maybe we are supposed to doubt the very possibility of an afterlife, and be willing to gamble the eternal salvation of our souls for the real-life benefit we can have in the here and now? idk