The Satan Misconception

Augustus McCrae · Dec 1, 2014

This is another very touchy subject, but one I have wished to broach for a long while.

First, is Satan Lucifer?
All the time, I hear people refer to Satan as Lucifer, "the morning star." They dig out their Bible and point to Isaiah 14:12 (How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, you who weakened the nations!) that the "fall from heaven" shows that Lucifer (Satan) rebelled against God and brought a slew of angels down with him. But if you read the chapter in context, this Lucifer is a flesh and blood human king, not an angel. Obviously a flesh and blood human king did not take an actual tumble from heaven, but metaphorically fell from power. Can we please leave the Babylonian king alone and stop calling Satan Lucifer? Jesus himself was called "the morning star".

Secondly, Revelations 12:9 and 14
(So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him [...] His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born). Ok, perhaps this one makes more sense, but lets think for a moment. Up to this point, the entirety of Revelations has been prophetic- these events are future events and have yet to occur. Why then, do we "cut" these scriptures out and "paste" them into a point way way back on the timeline? The rest of the book is future, why do we make this one section the past? It makes no sense!

Thirdly, (and perhaps my most dangerous suggestion) Satan is a tool (haha, punny). Is there a gigantic power struggle between God and Satan. I don't think God is going "Oh poor me, the devil got one step ahead of me on that one." It has never ever ever been in question that in the end, Jesus wins. Why then, do we make it out to be a big arm-wrestling match between the two. God created everything, good and evil. Isaiah 45:7 states "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." In Job, the devil had to come up to God and ask to torment Job. Do you think that if Satan was in a giant power struggle with God, that he would ask God to take his protection off Job. If that were true, would God willingly put Job in that danger? One of my favorite childhood movies is "Willie Wonka and the Chocolate Factory" (the old one). I love it for the music (Pure Imagination is just a beautiful song) while some of the story parts are rather... strange. However, another nugget from it is the character of Mr. Slugworth. At the beginning of the movie, Wonka's rival Slugworth asks the contestants to bring an everlasting gobstopper, Wonka's newest creation, to him (Mr. Slugworth) and that they would be well paid for it.
At the end, Charlie and Grandpa are the only ones left (others have been disqualified due to character flaws manifested in their actions). Whereas the others made it clear that they would give the gobstopper to Slugworth, at the end, Charlie leaves the candy on Wonka's desk. At this point, Wonka reveals that it was all a ruse, Slugworth is on Wonka's payroll and was there to test them (sound familiar?). Charlie ends up winning the factory. The End.

I don't know about y'all, but it would seem to make a great deal more sense to me that God (at the very least) allows Satan to tempt us to draw us closer in our relationship with Jesus than that God and Satan are in some gigantic tug of war that Satan has not an iota of a chance at any point in time. I know suggesting that Satan "works" for God would have countless infuriated. This is why I said he allows for Satan to tempt us.

I know this is a lot of info, and much of it is controversial, but remember, these are just musings and outcries for a greater understanding and don't necessarily mean I give any of these full validity. Thoughts?

branchofthevine · Dec 1, 2014

In some of the more difficult parts of Samuel-Kings, and Chronicles, some earlier traditions saw satan as an agent of God, like in the tormenting of Saul, and the lying spirit in the story of Micaiah ben-Imlah.

satan-ology has definitely changed over time, and there are a wide number of perspectives, like some saw satan not as the top angel, but Azazel was the top demonic power, to which in Leviticus a goat is given over to Azazel on the day of atonement -> Leviticus 16:7-10

7 He shall take the two goats and set them before the Lord at the entrance of the tent of meeting; 8 and Aaron shall cast lots on the two goats, one lot for the Lord and the other lot for Azazel.[c] 9 Aaron shall present the goat on which the lot fell for the Lord, and offer it as a sin offering; 10 but the goat on which the lot fell for Azazel[d] shall be presented alive before the Lord to make atonement over it, that it may be sent away into the wilderness to Azazel.[e]

Also, in some parts of parallel between Samuel and Chronicles (The story of the census), both satan and God are said to do the same action, (1 Chronicles 21:1 Satan stood up against Israel, and incited David to count the people of Israel. & 2 Samuel 24:1 Again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he incited David against them)

In Job satan is referred to as 'the satan' meaning 'the adversary' which reflects an earlier stage of interpretation where 'satan' did not refer necessarily to a single entity as is understood in later traditions.

Bottom line is that the tradition of interpreting satan is far more deep and complex than the standard sunday-school, evangelical lessons would have you believe.

single eye · Dec 2, 2014

The only rational explanation for the relationship between GOD, the devil. and us that I have ever found was in The Apocryphon of John. This is the one book christians do their best to avoid because it destroys all their pet doctrines. FYI, the straight gate and narrow way go through the AOJ, not the o.t.

timewerx · Dec 2, 2014

Does this mean we can afford to just watch evil and do absolutely nothing to try to stop it?

Maybe God is testing us with evil. Separate those who try to do something to stop evil from those who do nothing and later on, slate those who did nothing for elimination.

Norah63 · Dec 2, 2014

Suffer us not to be lead into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
Satan is the accuser of the bretheren.
We resist him and he will flee.

timbo3 · Dec 2, 2014

Is Satan "Lucifer" ? No, Satan is not Lucifer, in which the rendering of Lucifer is derived from the Latin Vulgate. The Hebrews words ben ("son of ") shachar ("dawn") at Isaiah 14:12 literally means "son of (the) dawn" and the Hebrew word shachar comes from a root meaning "shine".(Job 29:3) Hence, it is rendered in some Bibles as "shining one".(New World Translation)

Many fail to read the whole chapter of Isaiah 14, missing the context. So these ones pass along what that Satan is "Lucifer" without doing their "homework". At Isaiah 14:16, 17 it helps to identify who the "shining one" is, saying: "Those seeing you will stare at you; They will closely examine you, saying, Is this the man who was shaking the earth, who made kingdoms tremble, who made the inhabited earth like the wilderness and overthrew its cities, who refused to let his prisoners go home ? "

Hence, "Lucifer" or more accurately, the "shining one" who wants to stand proudly above everyone (see Isa 14:13, that says he wants to "ascend....above the stars of God" or those kings of the Davidic line), is not Satan, but "a man" who was extremely proud.

What king ( note Isa 14:18 that identifies this "man" as a "king") "refused to let his prisoners go home", never releasing them from captivity ? The dynasty of kings that began with King Nebuchadnezzar of ancient Babylon. Isaiah 13 began the "pronouncement against Babylon", with chapter 14 a continuation, then shifting to the nation of Moab in chapter 15.

King Nebuchadnezzar of ancient Babylon, a dominate world power for many decades during his reign (624-582 B.C.E.), made "kingdoms tremble". He boasted: "Is this not Babylon the Great that I myself have built for the royal house by my own strength and might and for the glory of my majesty?(Dan 4:30)

But it was made known that Nebuchadnezzar (and the kings that followed him on the throne), though he felt that he was a "shining one", glistening in the sun as it were for others to bow down to, he would ' fall from heaven ' and be "cut down to the earth."(Isa 14:12) He died.

The Babylonian dynasty of kings was "cut down to the earth" when the 3rd world power of Bible history fell to the Medes and Persians on October 5/6, 539 B.C.E.

RDKirk · Dec 2, 2014

Augustus McCrae said:
Ok, perhaps this one makes more sense, but lets think for a moment. Up to this point, the entirety of Revelations has been prophetic- these events are future events and have yet to occur. Why then, do we "cut" these scriptures out and "paste" them into a point way way back on the timeline? The rest of the book is future, why do we make this one section the past? It makes no sense!

There is a lot of discussion provoked by your whole post, but let me say on this point to remember that John was "in the Spirit" for this revelation, and that God has the characteristic of "extemporal simultaneity."

That means that in God's view, all time is "now." God exists in every moment of time simultaneously. So someone who is "in the Spirit" for a vision might very well see both the past and the future in the same vision.

It seems to me that Revelation 12 is firmly about events taking place in the Church Age, not in a pre-creational time. Thus, at least up until there was "blood of the Lamb," Satan had a place in heaven, not cast out until after there was "blood of the Lamb."

In Jude we are shown that during OT times, Michael could not rebuke Satan, but had to leave that to the Son. Yet, in Revelation 12 notice that it is Michael leading the battle, not the Son. Where is the Son?

I suspect the Son at that moment was on earth.

The seventy-two returned with joy and said, Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name.

He replied, I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you.

However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven. -- Luke 10

Maybe Jesus saw Satan fall during that same time as the 72 experienced victory over demons on earth.

timbo3 · Dec 2, 2014

Is Satan "Lucifer" ? No, Satan is not Lucifer, in which the rendering of Lucifer is derived from the Latin Vulgate. The Hebrews words ben ("son of ") shachar ("dawn") at Isaiah 14:12 literally means "son of (the) dawn" and the Hebrew word shachar comes from a root meaning "shine".(Job 29:3) Hence, it is rendered in some Bibles as "shining one".(New World Translation)

Many fail to read the whole chapter of Isaiah 14, missing the context. So these ones pass along that Satan is "Lucifer" without doing their "homework". At Isaiah 14:16, 17 it helps to identify who the "shining one" is, saying: "Those seeing you will stare at you; They will closely examine you, saying, Is this the man who was shaking the earth, who made kingdoms tremble, who made the inhabited earth like the wilderness and overthrew its cities, who refused to let his prisoners go home ? "

Hence, "Lucifer" or more accurately, the "shining one" who wants to stand proudly above everyone (see Isa 14:13, that says he wants to "ascend....above the stars of God" or those kings of the Davidic line), is not Satan, but "a man" who was extremely proud.

What king ( note Isa 14:18 that identifies this "man" as a "king") "refused to let his prisoners go home", never releasing them from captivity ? The dynasty of kings that began with King Nebuchadnezzar of ancient Babylon. Isaiah 13 began the "pronouncement against Babylon", with chapter 14 a continuation, then shifting to the nation of Moab in chapter 15.

King Nebuchadnezzar of ancient Babylon, a dominate world power for many decades during his reign (624-582 B.C.E.), made "kingdoms tremble". He boasted: "Is this not Babylon the Great that I myself have built for the royal house by my own strength and might and for the glory of my majesty?(Dan 4:30)

But it was made known that Nebuchadnezzar (and the kings that followed him on the throne), though he felt that he was a "shining one", glistening in the sun as it were for others to bow down to, he would ' fall from heaven ' and be "cut down to the earth."(Isa 14:12) He died.

The Babylonian dynasty of kings was "cut down to the earth" when the 3rd world power of Bible history fell to the Medes and Persians on October 5/6, 539 B.C.E.

timbo3 · Dec 2, 2014

Second post is a software glitch.

1213 · Dec 2, 2014

Augustus McCrae said:
Thoughts?

Satan has meaning adversary (one who opposes another in purpose or act). In that sense Lucifer is one satan, because he is one adversary of God and people. Jesus said that also Peter was at one time satan. (And actually it is in some translations with small initial letter, which I think means it is not personal pronoun, but means general concept or idea of opponent).

But he turned, and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling-block to me, for you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of men."
Matt 16:23

It seems to me that satan can mean spirit that is against God. And spirit in this means think pattern and attitude that makes person see things in certain perspective. I think it can be compared to team spirit. And in this case it makes person see things with not loving attitude.

Little children, let no one lead you astray. He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10

Devil has meaning accuser, which seems to be same as opponent.

Augustus McCrae · Dec 2, 2014

RDKirk said:
There is a lot of discussion provoked by your whole post, but let me say on this point to remember that John was "in the Spirit" for this revelation, and that God has the characteristic of "extemporal simultaneity."

That means that in God's view, all time is "now." God exists in every moment of time simultaneously. So someone who is "in the Spirit" for a vision might very well see both the past and the future in the same vision.

It seems to me that Revelation 12 is firmly about events taking place in the Church Age, not in a pre-creational time. Thus, at least up until there was "blood of the Lamb," Satan had a place in heaven, not cast out until after there was "blood of the Lamb."

In Jude we are shown that during OT times, Michael could not rebuke Satan, but had to leave that to the Son. Yet, in Revelation 12 notice that it is Michael leading the battle, not the Son. Where is the Son?

I suspect the Son at that moment was on earth.

The seventy-two returned with joy and said, Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name.

He replied, I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you.

However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven. -- Luke 10

Maybe Jesus saw Satan fall during that same time as the 72 experienced victory over demons on earth.

Perhaps, but what, then, does that say of Satan in the Old Testament (especially Job)? Furthermore, on "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you," - reading it two different ways gives it two entirely different meanings. One way "I saw Satan fall like- lightning- from heaven. In this instance, it would be clear that "like lightning" is how he fell and "heaven" is where he fell from. If you read it as "I saw Satan fall like- lightning from heaven," he didn't fall from heaven, but his fall was akin to lightning from heaven (in other words, the signs and wonders and victory over demonic forces showed that Jesus had the power and Satan had fallen from whatever power he had, a fall from power, not an actual fall). Thoughts?

RDKirk · Dec 2, 2014

Augustus McCrae said:
Perhaps, but what, then, does that say of Satan in the Old Testament (especially Job)?

I'd point out the "lying spirit" in 1 Chronicles and 1 Kings as Satan under God's direction as well.

I have no problem seeing Satan as a tool formerly serving God--as an "ignoble vessel" to a master who has both honorable serving bowls and dishonorable chamber pots.

What I think Revelation 12 is saying is that Satan's role in Heaven up to that point had been the adversary (prosecuting attorney) pointing out man's worthlessness for God's mercy every day and night. I believe that's the role we see him fulfilling in Job.

But at some point while the Son was on earth, the Father brought that role to an abrupt end and "the judge tossed the prosecutor out of the courtoom." Now there is only the defense attorney and the judge in the courtroom.

But Satan is here on earth, having lost his position as a tool in Heaven.

Augustus McCrae · Dec 7, 2014

The Satan Misconception

John 8:29

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John 8:29

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John 8:29

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