A MYSTERY: The Rapture and the PARABLE Of Ten Virgins

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Rize

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Today at 02:23 AM cougan said this in Post #6

I wrote a paper on the rapture. Instead of hogging up lots of room you can just read it off my web server if you would like.

http://www.ardmoreweb.com/christ/rapture.html

Cougan

I'll try to take a look soon.  Why don't you read Jesus Servant's pre-wrath/post-trib thread?

I just wrote up a good synopsis of the pre-wrath position there (not my pre-wrath/post-trib thread but Jesus Servant's thread).

[edit]

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/36119.html

There's the link to the exact thread I'm talking about.

Hmm.  Now I've skimmed over your paper.  I'm quite glad that you can clearly see that the pre-trib rapture is bogus.  However, I think you're missing a few things and throwing the baby out with the bath water.

For example,

"Again, I must answer no [Mathew 24 doesn't teach the rapture] ... First, lets take a look at what Jesus says.  We have three questions here."

I would disagree.  I see two questions.  "When will this [the destruction of the temple] happen?  And what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age."  That is one sign for two events.

Have you ever heard of a near/far prophecy?  Jesus quotes the book of Daniel in Mathew 24:15, but this prophecy in Daniel had already been fulfilled once (by Antioches of the Greek/Syrian beast empire).  This fulfillment is recorded in the book of Maccabees (not inspired, but historical).  Yet Jesus quotes it as if it will be fulfilled again.  That is a near/far prophecy.

I believe that Mathew 24:4-14 is also a near/far prophecy.  Notice how the calamities, false christs (seal 1), wars (seal 2), famine (seal 3), persecution (seals 4 and 5) and "the end" (seal 6, the sign of the day of the Lord from Mathew 24:29 and Joel 2:31).  Also, notice that the Gospel is also preached to all the world (Revelation 14:6-7) just before the wrath of God (Revelation 14:17-20).

You should read Robert Van Kampen's The Sign.

[edit]

One more thing:

"Do you see the sharp contrast here? First of all, notice that we have switched from those days and these things to that day.  We are now talking about the final judgment day.

I also want you to notice that we are talking about a time of peace instead of a time of war and starvation. He says that it’s going to be like the time of Noah. People are going to be eating, drinking, marrying, and just having a good ole time. This is completely the opposite of what we read in verses 4-35."

The problem here is that it will be a time of peace for nonChristians, because they will give in to the Anti-Christ and take his mark to avoid his persecuation.  For Christians, it will not be peaceful at all.  So, the parallel remains.  In Noah's day, it was not a time of peace for Noah (the church).  He had to do a ton of work building an ark.  For the rest of the world (non-Christians) it was a time of peace.

"This is completely the opposite of what we read in verses 4-35.  I would also like to point out that no one knows when the second coming will occur only the father knows. This means, that there isn’t some type of sign that we can look for."

There is definitely a sign.  Absolutely.  However, the sign occurs only moments (a minute or two) before the rapture/coming, so the day and hour are still not known.

The key to defeating the pre-trib rapture and the post-trib/non-rapture position is the sign in the sun, moon and stars.  The sign of Christ's coming.  The sign of the Day of the Lord.  It is unmistable, and it sets the stage for the rest of the end-times.
 
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Rize

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"If Revelation was written in 68AD, you will hold the view that the book is written about the destruction of Jerusalem. On the other hand if you think it was written in 96AD, you would hold the view that the book was written about the fall of the Roman Empire. In either case, almost everything in Revelation has already taken place."

I hardly know what to say.  Except that I emphatically reject this view (in favor of the view I linked to in the thread above).
 
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rollinTHUNDER

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Today at 08:23 AM cougan said this in Post #6

I wrote a paper on the rapture. Instead of hogging up lots of room you can just read it off my web server if you would like.

http://www.ardmoreweb.com/christ/rapture.html

Cougan

Hi cougan,
I see that you believe in no rapture at all.  So we disagree totally.  I believe that those who are ready, will be caught up together and meet the Lord in the air, and in the clouds.  I also believe that Jesus will keep His promise : That He was preparing a place for us and that He would come again and receive us to Himself, that where He is, we may be also.  But of course, I am one who believes the entire word of God, and not just the parts that I am able to understand.  No hard feelings my friend.  To each his own, but I'm standing firm, on the promises!!  But I agree, that the pre-trib rapture presented by those that wrote the Left Behind series is somewhat misleading, but not entirely.    Cheers!!
 
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rollinTHUNDER

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Today at 09:07 AM Rize said this in Post #8 

In either case, almost everything in Revelation has already taken place."

I hardly know what to say.  Except that I emphatically reject this view (in favor of the view I linked to in the thread above).

Hello Rize,
I must say, we are not even remotely close to what we believe.  And I'm not too much of a debater.  I can do some, but we are not even close and I don't have the time.  I can say though, that you are very close in your beliefs to what the post-tribbers believe.  I would also suggest that you are really missing the mark as far as the timing and meaning of the Day of the Lord.  I believe that day will not begin until His feet touch down on the Mount of Olives, and that is the day that will last for 1000 years.  For a better view of this, read my thread "MY DELIVERER IS COMIN'!!"

Also, God's wrath begins around mid-trib, and long before the second coming.  It doesn't appear to me that you will be ready for the Bridegroom when He comes.  I believe the only christians that will enter into the tribulation, will be the foolish virgins who were not watch, or prepared when the Bridegroom comes.  In other words, only those that did not separate themselves from the world.  They get caught with their hands in the cookie jar, so to speek.

Oh well, I guess we can always agree to disagree.  Cheers!!
 
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Rize

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Yesterday at 09:56 AM rollinTHUNDER said this in Post #10

Hello Rize,
I must say, we are not even remotely close to what we believe.  And I'm not too much of a debater.  I can do some, but we are not even close and I don't have the time.  I can say though, that you are very close in your beliefs to what the post-tribbers believe.  I would also suggest that you are really missing the mark as far as the timing and meaning of the Day of the Lord.  I believe that day will not begin until His feet touch down on the Mount of Olives, and that is the day that will last for 1000 years.  For a better view of this, read my thread "MY DELIVERER IS COMIN'!!"

Oh well, I guess we can always agree to disagree.  Cheers!!

We can agree to disagree.  Yes.  However, if by your own admission, you are not a great debater, shouldn't you seriously question your own conclusions?

As for when the day of the Lord will occur, I have staked it to a clear and unmistakable sign which Jesus described.  At the appearance of this sign in the book of Revelation (seal number 6) there are also other events that occur.  Any good study Bible or internet reference should link you to the Old Testament texts which describe, in more detail than Jesus did, the signs of the day of the Lord.  In particular from the book of Joel and Isaiah.  In Jesus Servant's post-trib/pre-wrath thread, I have gone into great detail concerning this sign.

Also, God's wrath begins around mid-trib

Can you demonstrate this scripturally?  I see that the Anti-Christ's persecution of Christians begins at mid-trib, but this is not God's wrath, it is Satan's wrath (Revelation 12:17; the Dragon was enraged and went off to make war with the [saints]).

It doesn't appear to me that you will be ready for the Bridegroom when He comes. 

How does one's belief in the timing of the rapture affect whether or not that person will be ready to meet Jesus?  What if you die today and miss the rapture?  Does that mean that you will not be saved?  Of course not.  Similarly, if I (or anyone else) meet the requirements for salvation, then why wouldn't I be saved when the rapture occurs, whether I'm looking for it in the right place or not.

I believe the only christians that will enter into the tribulation, will be the foolish virgins who were not watch, or prepared when the Bridegroom comes. 

Preparation is not knowing when the rapture will be, it is having received Jesus as your savior.

If you are not a good debator, it may be that your ability to evaluate and formulate arguments is not very good.  If that is true, then you should, perhaps, pull back and be ready for anything. 

Be ready for the possibility that the rapture will not occur before the tribulation (the wrath of Satan) hits.  If necessary, be ready to die for Jesus just as many Christians do even today (not in America, but certainly in places like China and Muslim countries).

If you hold to the view, as Andrew did (does?) that Christian's are to be protected from suffering, just look at the list of scriptures I've compiled here:<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">Acts 5:41
Acts 9:16&nbsp;
Romans 5:3
Romans 8:17-18
2 Corinthians 1:5-8
Galatians 3:4
Ephesians 3:13
Philippians 1:29
Philippians 3:10
Colossians 1:24
1 Thessalonians 1:6
1 Thessalonians 2:2
1 Thessalonians 2:14
2 Thessalonians 1:5
2 Timothy 1:8
2 Timothy 1:12
2 Timothy 2:9
2 Timothy 3:11
Hebrews 10:32
Hebrews 13:3
1 Peter 1:6
1 Peter 2:19-21
1 Peter 3:14
1 Peter 4:12-16
1 Peter 4:19
1 Peter 5:9-10
Revelation 1:9
Revelation 2:10</SPAN>
 
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rollinTHUNDER

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Today at 12:33 PM Rize said this in Post #11

We can agree to disagree.&nbsp; Yes.&nbsp; However, if by your own admission, you are not a great debater, shouldn't you seriously question your own conclusions?

As for when the day of the Lord will occur, I have staked it to a clear and unmistakable sign which Jesus described.&nbsp; At the appearance of this sign in the book of Revelation (seal number 6) there are also other events that occur.&nbsp; Any good study Bible or internet reference should link you to the Old Testament texts which describe, in more detail than Jesus did, the signs of the day of the Lord.&nbsp; In particular from the book of Joel and Isaiah.&nbsp; In Jesus Servant's post-trib/pre-wrath thread, I have gone into great detail concerning this sign.


Hello Rize,
No, I wouldn't question what the Lord reveals to me, unless I don't understand what He's showing me.&nbsp; The Lord told me I would write for Him.&nbsp; He never said anything about debating what I write about, but I do try to explain it better for those who have trouble understanding.&nbsp; I can verbally debate, but my problem on the Forum with debating is an issue of time, mainly because I only type with one finger, and I am a member of more than just one board, so it does get very time consuming.&nbsp;

I think you, like many others, and even many good students of prophecy miss the timing of the day of the Lord.&nbsp; Many confuse, or try to combine the day of the Lord with God's wrath.&nbsp; They are two separate things.&nbsp; Yes, you can argue that it is Satan's wrath, but it is by God's authority.&nbsp; This is Jacob's punishment for not recognizing the day of visitation and rejecting the true Messiah.&nbsp; God is using a bad thing for His good.&nbsp; The same way He allows Satan to put us through trials.&nbsp; This is how God tests our faith.&nbsp; People wonder why God allows Satan to get away with the things he does, and that is why.&nbsp; God draws a line, and Satan can only go as far as God will allow Him, and not one inch beyond that line.

You may think I'm a pre-tribber, but that would be wrong.&nbsp; If that's what you think, then you probably didn't read far enough into my thread.&nbsp; I used to be a pre-tribber, but I have allowed the Lord to adjust the errors of my thinking and bring me into line with what He is going to do.&nbsp;&nbsp;Most people get so caught up in what they've come to believe that they trip right over the truth.&nbsp; But God is not bound by what you, or I, or anyone else believes.&nbsp; There are probably hundreds of theories out there, but it's only going to happen one way, and that's His way.&nbsp; We were warned to stay ready, alert, sober and to keep watch, and that my friend, is the only way to stay safe from the coming of the hour of testing that is going to test the entire world, but we were warned to come out of the world.&nbsp; Those that heed that warning will escape the hour of testing (Rev. 3:10 / Luke 21:36).&nbsp; Why, will they escape the test, you may ask?&nbsp; Because the bride has already laid her life down and passed the test.&nbsp; The foolish virgins won't be ready.&nbsp; They won't lay it down until they are forced to choose in the tribulation, which is the hour of testing for those who aren't ready when the Bridegroom comes.&nbsp; Cheers!!!
 
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Rize

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When something is "revealed" to you, how do you know it is God who revealed it?&nbsp;

I can show you dozens of people who have had contradictory things revealed to them by "God".&nbsp; If what God reveals to you doesn't square away with the Bible, perhaps the revelation was merely an accident (coincidence, mistake etc; I don't know how you distinguish a "revelation" from a non-revelation).

If you are merely saying that God wanted you to write, well, perhaps you should learn about what you're writing about first.

As for the Day of the Lord and God's wrath being two separate things, you're gravely mistaken.&nbsp; In any case, the rapture is tied directly to the day of the Lord anyway (rather than being tied to "God's wrath"), and the timing of the day of the Lord (in relation to other end-time events) can be easily ascertained once you know what to look for.

You want to know what I think?&nbsp; The pre-trib rapture is completely meaningless.&nbsp; It is an absurd way to sooth the fears of Christians who would rather not go through the persecution of the Anti-Christ.&nbsp; Yet, as I showed you, Christians are meant to suffer at the hands of the world (while the world is meant to suffer at the hands of God).

Have you been duped into&nbsp;a false sense of security given by the pre-trib rapture?

This is what is in the Bible concerning end times:

Why, will they escape the test, you may ask?&nbsp; Because the bride has already laid her life down and passed the test.&nbsp;

Did you look up any of those verses I gave you above?&nbsp; Why don't you copy/paste them into the BibleGateWay.com search engine?

Also, you were clearly pre-trib before.&nbsp; Will you elaborate on your position now?

And can you explain how trying to ascertain the relative location of the rapture (in relation to other end-time events) prevents a person from watching and being ready?
 
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rollinTHUNDER

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Today at 03:09 AM Rize said this in Post #13&nbsp;

Also, you were clearly pre-trib before.&nbsp; Will you elaborate on your position now?


We are clearly in disagreement here.&nbsp; The only thing I will say is :read the whole thread.&nbsp; Then you will know exactly where I stand.&nbsp; Then you may want to take a look at "MY DELIVERER IS COMIN'!!" as to what the day of the Lord really is.&nbsp; Before I go, here's a little clue (2 Peter 3:8), but there's much more. Cheers!!
 
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wowie, lots to read through..
I agreed with much of what you said, but there is one part I'm not too sure about. I don't think the five foolish virgins will be martyred. The story said they would be left outside, and the Lord told them that he did not know them. Why would He say that if they were to be latered martyred for Him. These I have felt were false converts, they say Lord, Lord!, but never changed in their hearts. These I feel will go to hell, not heaven. If I misunderstood you, I'm sorry, my bad.
 
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postrib

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18th February 2003 at 03:41 PM rollinTHUNDER said this in Post #1
...The Rapture and the Parable Of Ten Virgins...
In the parable of the 10 virgins, isn't the door closed at Jesus' coming (Matthew 25:10, compare Luke 13:24-28), which Jesus had just finished saying would be "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31)? Does the Bible teach a 3rd coming?

Won't Christians either be ready for Jesus' 2nd coming or be lost, as the 5 foolish virgins are lost? "The bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not" (Matthew 25:10-12); "Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them. Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out" (Luke 13:23-28).

18th February 2003 at 03:41 PM rollinTHUNDER said this in Post #1
...there is a difference between the [church] and the [bride]...
Note that everyone in the body of Christ is part of the bride of Christ, "for we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church" (Ephesians 5:30-32). Note that Christ doesn't marry part of his body, but his entire body, the church. Note that no verse in the Bible distinguishes between the body of Christ and the bride of Christ, or says that the bride of Christ is only part of the body of Christ.

18th February 2003 at 03:41 PM rollinTHUNDER said this in Post #1
...one will be taken and the other left...
"So shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left" (Matthew 24:39-40).

Note that there Jesus is referring to the same "coming of the Son of man" as when he says "immediately after the tribulation of those days... they shall see the Son of man coming" (Matthew 24:29-30). Jesus isn't teaching a 3rd coming. Note that he is speaking to the same believers, the same "ye," in Matthew 24:15 that he is speaking to in Matthew 24:42.

In the pre-trib view, how will "one taken, one left" be a secret pre-trib rapture and not an event at the revelation of Jesus, when "even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed... Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left" (Luke 17:30, 36)?

I believe that the ones "taken" at the 2nd coming are unbelievers who are killed, just as Noah's flood "took" evil men away (Matthew 24:39-40), and that the carcasses of the ones "taken" are eaten by eagles and other birds (Luke 17:36-37, Job 39:30, Matthew 24:28, Revelation 19:21).

I believe the ones "left" at the 2nd coming (Matthew 24:40, Zechariah 14:16) will be survivors of the heathen nations that came against Jerusalem, who will be forced to worship Jesus in the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-18), and whom we will rule "with a rod of iron" during that time (Revelation 2:26-29, 5:9-10, 20:4). They will be the ones who will populate the millennium.

The ones "gathered together" at Jesus' 2nd coming are his elect (2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31). So I believe Christians won't be the ones "taken" or the ones "left," but the ones "gathered together."

18th February 2003 at 03:41 PM rollinTHUNDER said this in Post #1
...people are still receiving salvation in the tribulation...
Does it show anyone repenting during the tribulation? Doesn't it say that the unbelievers "repented not" (Revelation 9:20-21, 16:9-11), and that at some point in the tribulation "God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be ****** who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness" (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12)? Is it possible all the Christians we see in the tribulation (Revelation 6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 16:15, 18:4, 20:4) are us, saved before the tribulation began? Does Jesus promise us a rapture before the tribulation?

Could giving unbelievers the idea of a 2nd chance be dangerous? After hearing the ideas of a pre-trib rapture and a 2nd chance, could unbelievers get complacent and say "Oh, when I see a pre-trib rapture happen then I'll repent and believe; I've got a 2nd chance, right?"

Should we instead warn them? "The Bible doesn't promise that there will be a rapture before the tribulation. And in the great tribulation God is going to send a strong delusion (2 Thessalonians 2:11) on all those who rejected the gospel. Today is the day of salvation. You may not get another chance to believe."
 
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postrib

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18th February 2003 at 03:45 PM rollinTHUNDER said this in Post #2
...My master is staying away a long time...&nbsp;&nbsp;
Some say that in order to believe Jesus won't come until after the tribulation one must "say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming" (Matthew 24:48). But if that's when Jesus said he is scheduled to come (Matthew 24:29-31), how is that a delay?

But what if we believed pre-trib and it doesn't happen; then we could fall into the "My lord delayeth his coming" mindset Jesus warned against (Matthew 24:48-51).

18th February 2003 at 03:45 PM rollinTHUNDER said this in Post #2
...scoffers will come...&nbsp;&nbsp;
Note that someone who believes the rapture is after the tribulation at the 2nd coming of Jesus (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8) in no way scoffs at his 2nd coming (2 Peter 3:2-4).

18th February 2003 at 03:45 PM rollinTHUNDER said this in Post #2
...God will also take Christ' bride out of His own body, the same way He took Eve out of Adams body...&nbsp;&nbsp;
By this analogy, do you feel that Adam's own body missed out on being married? Did Eve's body have a closer relationship to Adam than Adam's own body?

Note that Adam's body and Eve's body together became one body, "one flesh" (Genesis 2:24), just as "we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church" (Ephesians 5:30-32). Note again that Christ doesn't marry part of his body, but his entire body, the church. Note that no verse in the Bible distinguishes between the body of Christ and the bride of Christ, or says that the bride of Christ is only part of the body of Christ.

18th February 2003 at 03:45 PM rollinTHUNDER said this in Post #2
...the word church is not mentioned after chapter 3 in the Book of Revelation...&nbsp;&nbsp;
I'm glad we may agree that the 24 elders in Revelation 4-5 aren't the church, but aren't we Christians mentioned throughout Revelation (6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 16:15, 18:4, 20:4), and aren't all Christians part of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5)?

18th February 2003 at 03:45 PM rollinTHUNDER said this in Post #2
...the wedding in heaven...
Note that the Bible doesn't show the marriage of the church or the marriage supper happening before or during the tribulation, or in heaven; it doesn't announce the marriage and supper until the 2nd coming, immediately before we descend with Christ at Armageddon (Revelation 19:7-9, 14). "The bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage" (Matthew 25:10). I don't believe the Bible teaches a 3rd coming.

After the tribulation, I believe the rapture will gather us into the clouds to be married (Revelation 19:7) before Armageddon. The supper will be on the earth after Armageddon (Revelation 19:9, 17; Isaiah 25:5-9).

Note that Paul says that at the 2nd coming "the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed... when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory" (1 Corinthians 15:52-54), for death will have been swallowed up in victory for all of us believers; and the supper on the earth in Isaiah 25:5-9 is spoken of in connection with this same 2nd coming and resurrection in which Jesus "will swallow up death in victory... And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him" (Isaiah 25:8-9).

In the pre-trib view, why isn't the Lamb shown to be at the marriage of the Lamb (Revelation 19:7) or the supper of the Lamb (Revelation 19:9) at any time we see him during the tribulation (Revelation 5:6-13; Revelation 6:1; Revelation 7:9-17; Revelation 14:1-4)?

18th February 2003 at 03:45 PM rollinTHUNDER said this in Post #2
...the tribulation saints...
Note that no scripture refers to "tribulation saints," or says that there can be anyone saved outside of the body of Christ, for "there is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith" (Ephesians 4:4-5); "ye are called in one body" (Colossians 3:15); "he is the saviour of the body" (Ephesians 5:23); "by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles" (1 Corinthians 12:13); "we, being many, are one body in Christ" (Romans 12:5); "now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular" (1 Corinthians 12:27); "the cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread" (1 Corinthians 10:16-17).
 
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postrib

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18th February 2003 at 03:46 PM rollinTHUNDER said this in Post #3
...like a thief...
Note that Jesus comes on people as a thief only "if" they aren't watching: "IF therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee" (Revelation 3:3).

Paul said that if we watch for the 2nd coming it will not overtake us as a thief: "Yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night... But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief... let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch" (1 Thessalonians 5:2, 4, 6).

Note that between the 6th and 7th vials, at the very end of the tribulation, Jesus is still exhorting us to keep watching for his coming: "Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth" (Revelation 16:15).

18th February 2003 at 03:46 PM rollinTHUNDER said this in Post #3
...watch...
Note that in the Bible, "watching" doesn't mean staring up in the sky waiting for something to happen at any moment; it means to stay awake (Matthew 26:38-41).

"And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour? Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation" (Matthew 26:40-41). Here Jesus wasn't asking "Could ye not watch with me for the imminent rapture for one hour?" And he wasn't saying "Watch and pray for the imminent rapture that ye enter not into temptation." He was asking "Could ye not stay awake with me for one hour?" And he was saying "Stay awake and pray, that ye enter not into temptation."

Jesus made clear we must stay spiritually awake for his coming (Matthew 24:42-48, 25:13; Mark 13:35-36), and that his coming to gather us would not be until after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27). There's no 3rd coming of Christ.

18th February 2003 at 03:46 PM rollinTHUNDER said this in Post #3
...Rev. 3:10...
Note that Revelation 3:10 doesn't promise the church a pre-trib rapture, but simply promised the 1st century church of Philadelphia that it would be kept from the hour of trial, which was probably a great persecution in their own time, and they weren't raptured.

18th February 2003 at 03:46 PM rollinTHUNDER said this in Post #3
...Luke 21: 34-36...
I believe we should all be praying that we might be counted worthy to escape the tribulation: "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man" (Luke 21:36). But note that Jesus is speaking to the same believers, the same "ye," in Luke 21:8-35 that he is speaking to in Luke 21:36.

I believe we will escape the entire tribulation and stand before the Son of Man (Luke 21:36) only if we die before the tribulation starts (Isaiah 57:1, 2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21-23). Many of us Christians will go through the tribulation (Luke 21:31; Revelation 6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 16:15, 18:4, 20:4).

18th February 2003 at 03:46 PM rollinTHUNDER said this in Post #3
...OVERCOMING...
Note that overcomers must be faithful unto death in tribulation: "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death" (Revelation 2:10-11); "They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death" (Revelation 12:11).

18th February 2003 at 03:46 PM rollinTHUNDER said this in Post #3
...kept from the (hour or time) of the test...
Note that Jesus didn't have to remove the 1st century church of Philadelphia from time itself, but simply kept them from a time of testing that came upon the rest of the church, just as one student excused from taking a test during the hour in which it is being administered to all his fellow students, and is allowed to sit at his desk for that hour reading the Bible, doesn't have to be removed from time itself in order to be excused from the hour of testing, for it will not be an hour of testing for that student, but only for those who are being tested at that time.

18th February 2003 at 03:46 PM rollinTHUNDER said this in Post #3
...church age...
While I believe the church began in Acts 2, note that the Bible doesn't refer to a "church age," but instead says that the church will continue "throughout all ages, world without end" (Ephesians 3:21). Note again that we Christians are referred to throughout Revelation (6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 16:15, 18:4, 20:4), and there are no Christians outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5), and every Christian must have the Spirit, for "if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his" (Romans 8:9).
 
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19th February 2003 at 03:18 PM rollinTHUNDER said this in Post #9
...those who are ready, will be caught up together and meet the Lord in the air, and in the clouds...
Could we be caught up to meet Jesus coming "in the clouds" on his way down to set his feet on the earth?

"The Son of man coming in the clouds...
with a great sound of a trumpet,
and they shall gather together his elect"
(Matthew 24:30-31).

"We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord...
with the trump of God...
shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord"
(1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

Do the scriptures teach two different comings "in the clouds,"
and two different "last" trumps (1 Corinthians 15:52),
and two different raptures of the church?

Because 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 shows Jesus "coming," but doesn't show him landing on the earth, does this require that it be referring to a part-way coming of Jesus whereby he comes down only as far as the clouds and then returns to heaven? Isn't it true that Matthew 24:29-31 and Revelation 19 don't show Jesus landing on the earth either? Do some then believe that Matthew 24:29-31 and Revelation 19 are also not the 2nd coming?

Does 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 show Jesus returning to heaven? Doesn't Acts 1:11 say Jesus will "come" just as he left? Will he come only as far as the clouds and then return to heaven again, even thought he didn't leave only as far as the clouds and then return to earth again? Just as he went from the Mount of Olives to the clouds and "into heaven" (Acts 1:11), couldn't he come from heaven to the clouds to the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4)? Does the Bible teach a 3rd coming of Jesus?

19th February 2003 at 03:18 PM rollinTHUNDER said this in Post #9
...He was preparing a place for us and that He would come again and receive us to Himself, that where He is, we may be also...
Note that no verse says that the rapture will take anyone any higher than the clouds.

Jesus said: "I will come again, and receive you unto myself" (John 14:3). Note that he didn't say he would come back before the tribulation or that he would take us into heaven.

Jesus said: "I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also" (John 14:3). Note that he says we will be where he is after he comes again. He doesn't say he will turn around and go back into heaven. And indeed we will be where he is after he comes again: on the earth during the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, 5:10, 2:26-29).

I believe Jesus said "In my Father's house are many mansions... I go to prepare a place for you," to show why he was going, not why he was coming back, and to show that he still has great and eternal plans for us in New Jerusalem, where the Father will dwell with us after the millennium: "I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God" (Revelation 21:2-3).

19th February 2003 at 03:18 PM rollinTHUNDER said this in Post #9
...I'm standing firm, on the promises...
Does any scripture promise us a rapture before the tribulation? Doesn't Jesus say that he will come to gather us together "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), and Paul say that Jesus' coming to gather us together must "destroy" the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8)? Don't we Christians have to go through the coming tribulation (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13)?
 
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