The Identity of Gog and His Allies.

Biblewriter · Oct 30, 2014

ebedmelech said:
That's basically a copout Biblewriter. Do you need a list of all the scriptures that tell us Christ reigns right now?

Let's look at Colossians 1:15, 16:
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authoritiesall things have been created through Him and for Him.

17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

Do you need more? You're in scriptural denial!

How much planer can you get that that all things are not yet put under Him?

precepts · Oct 30, 2014

The key to understanding who Gog is, is the two attacks the 1,000 yrs apart; the attacks mimicking the earlier, earthly attacks on Shalem and her the temple. The earthly temple, destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar, defiled by the Greek lil horn - the abomination of desolation king - are the two desolations in Israel's history before 70ad. This is what's re-happening in Revelation, "as above, so below." The reason why John is told to not measure the heavenly temple's courtyard.

Ezekiel chapter 38's context verifies the facts:
Eze 38:8 After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.

- The context in parable form describes Gog's attack as the Greek lil horn, the 2nd earthly attack on the temple, but it's also speaking of his heavenly attempt to do the same thing, when he and his army are burnt up.

Eze 38:11 And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,
Eze 38:12 To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land.

Once again in reference to Israel post Babylon.

Zec 2:4 And said unto him, Run, speak to this young man, saying, Jerusalem shall be inhabited as towns without walls for the multitude of men and cattle therein:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Est 9:19 Therefore the Jews of the villages, that dwelt in the unwalled towns, made the fourteenth day of the month Adar a day of gladness and feasting, and a good day, and of sending portions one to another.

Verses verifying Israel dwell without walls post Babylon.

Eze 38:14 Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord GOD; In that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it?
Eze 38:15 And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army:
Eze 38:16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.

The latter days being post Babylon, and his coming out of the "north parts" verifying he's the king of the North (Dan 8 and 11), the Greek lil horn. It's also verifying the double meaning of Ez 38's prophecy, explaining why Dan 11's context jumps from the chronology of the Greek kings of the North to Dan 12's context of the 2nd resurrection (the White Throne Judgement).

Eze 38:22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.

Which is Rev 20's account of Gog's demise. Gog being the "devil" that the "Devil" uses, as he did with the Beast and the False Prophet, to decieve the world. It is Gog that's thrown into the lake of fire, where the Beast and False Prophet are, because the "Wheat and Tares" harvest/resurrection is the final resurrection, when we will be gathered into the barn (New Shalem) or the lake of fire. These events happen in heaven. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom. The New Shalem comes down out of the heavens of heavens and replaces the old Shalem.

My pearls. :pray:

Biblewriter · Nov 1, 2014

precepts said:
The key to understanding who Gog is, is the two attacks the 1,000 yrs apart; the attacks mimicking the earlier, earthly attacks on Shalem and her the temple. The earthly temple, destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar, defiled by the Greek lil horn - the abomination of desolation king - are the two desolations in Israel's history before 70ad. This is what's re-happening in Revelation, "as above, so below." The reason why John is told to not measure the heavenly temple's courtyard.

Ezekiel chapter 38's context verifies the facts:
Eze 38:8 After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.

- The context in parable form describes Gog's attack as the Greek lil horn, the 2nd earthly attack on the temple, but it's also speaking of his heavenly attempt to do the same thing, when he and his army are burnt up.

Once again in reference to Israel post Babylon.

Verses verifying Israel dwell without walls post Babylon.

The latter days being post Babylon, and his coming out of the "north parts" verifying he's the king of the North (Dan 8 and 11), the Greek lil horn. It's also verifying the double meaning of Ez 38's prophecy, explaining why Dan 11's context jumps from the chronology of the Greek kings of the North to Dan 12's context of the 2nd resurrection (the White Throne Judgement).

Which is Rev 20's account of Gog's demise. Gog being the "devil" that the "Devil" uses, as he did with the Beast and the False Prophet, to decieve the world. It is Gog that's thrown into the lake of fire, where the Beast and False Prophet are, because the "Wheat and Tares" harvest/resurrection is the final resurrection, when we will be gathered into the barn (New Shalem) or the lake of fire. These events happen in heaven. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom. The New Shalem comes down out of the heavens of heavens and replaces the old Shalem.

My pearls.

The Devil is not "of the land of Magog."

Interplanner · Nov 1, 2014

But I do find that Gog and Magog are casually used to mean the whole rebellious earth at the end of the long reign of Christ on earth, 20:8. All earth rebels but they do so wherever they are, and are destroyed wherever they are.

Interplanner · Nov 1, 2014

Don't confuse pictures/symbols with reality.

precepts · Nov 1, 2014

Biblewriter said:
The Devil is not "of the land of Magog."

Did you even read what I wrote? I never said the "Devil" was of the land of Magog. Magog is Greece.

Some people just can't accept the truth!

Biblewriter · Nov 3, 2014

precepts said:
Did you even read what I wrote? I never said the "Devil" was of the land of Magog. Magog is Greece.

Some people just can't accept the truth!

And where did you get the idea that Magog was Greece? In the first century Magog was identified as the Scythians, which inhabited the steep lands of what is now Russia. In the fourth century Gog was identified as the Goths, which came from the same area. And in the fifth century the Ros was identified as the homeland of these same Goths. But no ancient writer identified any part of this account with the Greeks.

ebedmelech · Nov 3, 2014

Biblewriter said:
How much planer can you get that that all things are not yet put under Him?

I'll tell you how Biblewriter.

Paul is trying to get you to use your mind. While you do not see all things under Jesus' feet, that is because Jesus has not exercised His power and authority.

You do understand "sovereignty" don't you? Jesus is sovereign...and He can move on this world whenever He chooses to do so.

Now...try and listen to Peter in 2 Peter 3:8, 9:
8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

The bottom line is that it is the MERCY of the Lord that it doesn't seem that all things are under His feet!

To ask the question you're asking denies Romans 8:29, 30:
29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Are you getting there? To reign means you can exercise power and authorith when you CHOOSE TO DO SO!!!

Jesus said it to the Pharisees in John 10:18
18 No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.

When you reign, you can choose to do...AT YOUR WILL!

precepts · Nov 3, 2014

Biblewriter said:
And where did you get the idea that Magog was Greece? In the first century Magog was identified as the Scythians, which inhabited the steep lands of what is now Russia. In the fourth century Gog was identified as the Goths, which came from the same area. And in the fifth century the Ros was identified as the homeland of these same Goths. But no ancient writer identified any part of this account with the Greeks.

Why are you making these silly statements? You're telling me what some guy said when I'm giving scriptural facts. The verses prove Gog is the Greek little horn because he attacks Israel post Babylon. The verses prove he's Gog because Dan 12 jumps to Rev 20's 2nd Resurrection after discussing the Greek little horn in Dan 11.

Rev 20, the burning up of Gog and his Armies, not Satan, is the 2nd resurrection, the "White Throne Judgement." The "Wheat and Tares" resurrection/harvest - what some call the rapture - is the 3rd and last resurrection. I already explained the difference between them, the "Wheat and Tares" resurrection not being a throne judgment. These are the Facts!

Interplanner · Nov 3, 2014

Christ is declared to be reigning in I Cor 15 even though not everything appears that way. v25.

So let's note the two ways we think things are plain:

BW's: you look at the world as we know it and say this is plain or not.
Mine, perhaps EbedM's: you look at the declarations of the NT and say it is plain, or not.

'Basileuein' in 15:25 is the present infinitive, says the grammatical lexicon. It is not the infinitive you would use to say, 'when condition A exists in the future, he will then reign from that time forward.' It is the infinitive you use to say he is reigning now and onward.

As far as that goes, was he ever not? Isn't that the question for 2P2P to sort out? 2P2P says God reigns if God reigns in Jerusalem and in the procedures of Judaism etc. Do they realize God reigned before that? There was a priesthood before that? Can you see from this how much 2P2P is embedded in your thinking?

random person · Nov 4, 2014

Gog and MaGog-- Russia, Iran-- or Who?

By William Bell

Memphis, Tn.

Allthingsfulfilled.com

Etymology of Gog and Magog

Many modern would be prophets will use any current evil nation as the subject of their end time scheme to give the appearance of Biblical fulfillment.

This coupled with a few statements from the Bible that Christ is returning soon and they have the magic formula for sensationalizing end time prophecy, and terrifying the living daylights out of most otherwise sensible people.

Of the nations mentioned in Ezekiel, three are Libya (Put) which remains today. Also there is Persia, (modern day Iran) and Biblical Ethiopia which is the land just to the south of Egypt or Northern Sudan.

Togarmah, a descendant of Noah through Japheth, then Gomer, is known to Assyrian records as Tilgarimmu. It was a city state in Eastern Anatolia (Asia Minor, or modern day Turkey) a fact generally accepted.

Gomer, often mistakenly referred to as Germany because of the supposed similarity of lingustic construction. Rather, Gomer is well known to the ancient world as Gimarrai of north central Asia Minor (Cappodocia). They are also known as Cimmerians.

Rosh, is never listed as a place in the Bible and it was never associated as a place with Meshech or Tubal. It is believed to refer to the chief prince of Mesheck and Tubal.

Meshech is often erroneously referred to as Moscow. Rather, it refers to Mushki of western Asia Minor, and is known as Phrygia, which fits very well geographically with the other terms.

These were all people known to Ezekiel the prophet. Further, they were known to the N.T. writers. Peter addresses the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Asia Minor,(1 Peter 1:1). John wrote Revelation to the seven churches which were in Asia [Minor], (Rev. 1:11).

Gog, much more difficult to interpret ranges in suggestions from a king of Lydia in extreme western Asia minor to a god named Gaga, a ruler of the land Sakhi, north of Assyria, and others.

According to the Septuagint, Gog may be merely an official title or general designation for an enemy of Gods people. This seems a likely description especially considering the context that Gog and Magog would launch an attack against Gods people in the last days.

Magog, perhaps the most difficult to determine refers to some place in Asia Minor also. Now, when these names are viewed as those south of Israel, as in Biblical Ethiopia (Sudan), Libya, and Biblical Persia or (modern day Iran,) then to the north of Israel as in Asia Minor, we have the farthest north point for the prophecy.

The key is understanding the text from the ancient prophet Ezekiels point of view, not from modern day would-be prophets. Is there any justification to apply Gog and Magog to Russia, Germany, the USA or even Iran today?

Biblewriter · Nov 7, 2014

precepts said:
Why are you making these silly statements? You're telling me what some guy said when I'm giving scriptural facts. The verses prove Gog is the Greek little horn because he attacks Israel post Babylon. The verses prove he's Gog because Dan 12 jumps to Rev 20's 2nd Resurrection after discussing the Greek little horn in Dan 11.

Rev 20, the burning up of Gog and his Armies, not Satan, is the 2nd resurrection, the "White Throne Judgement." The "Wheat and Tares" resurrection/harvest - what some call the rapture - is the 3rd and last resurrection. I already explained the difference between them, the "Wheat and Tares" resurrection not being a throne judgment. These are the Facts!

You are assuming that there is only one "post Babylon" attack on Israel. But the different descriptions of "post Babylon" attacks contain numerous mututally exclusive details, thus proving that there will be more than one such attack.

precepts · Nov 8, 2014

Biblewriter said:
You are assuming that there is only one "post Babylon" attack on Israel. But the different descriptions of "post Babylon" attacks contain numerous mututally exclusive details, thus proving that there will be more than one such attack.

I am not assuming. The only attack in prophecy post Babylon is the abomination of desolation attack, which is done by Gog. I provided the verses showing his plans to attack "the cities dwelling without walls, the land brought back from captivity." There's no attack that causes Israel to cease/desolate as a nation.

If you know of any other attacks, please provide the verses.

Interplanner · Nov 8, 2014

That's not when the DofA is, and there are several reasons why Babylon was the image used of Jerusalem at that time.

ebedmelech · Nov 8, 2014

Are we still doing this when John tells us who Gog and Magog is in Revelation 20:7-10?

They are the unbelieving world...period!

Rev20 · Nov 9, 2014

ebedmelech said:
Are we still doing this when John tells us who Gog and Magog is in Revelation 20:7-10?

They are the unbelieving world...period!

That is what I believe. I realize this does not fit the narrative and talking points of many doctrines; but the Gog and Magog in the Revelation goes after the church worldwide (the breadth of the earth is, by definition, the entire earth). The "camp of the saints" is depicted in the New Covenant as the Church, and its early members:

"Which thing I [Paul] also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them." -- Acts 26:10

"Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:" -- 1Cor 1:2

"Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:" -- Eph 1:1

"Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints." -- Jude 1:3

.

A "thousand years" earlier than Satan's assault, the beast and the Great harlot (Babylon) also made war with the saints and/or killed them:

"And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. . . And there was given unto him [the beast] a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. . . And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations." -- Rev 13:1, 5, 7

"And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. . . And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth." -- Rev 18:2, 24

The Great harlot was identified by Christ as first-century Jerusalem due to its responsibility for the blood of the prophets:

". . . I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute: That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation." -- Luke 11:49-51

"Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem." -- Luke 13:33

.

Gog and Magog in Ezekiel 38 & 39 were ancient armies going after Israel after their return from captivity, and before the days of Christ, since He ministered in the last days:

"And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes." -- Eze 38:16

"God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;" -- Heb 1:1-2

"The specification in our prophet, however, is rendered more definite by the following statement that the attack was to be made . . . in the last of the years, which, in prophetic designations of time, denotes that which immediately preceded the coming of the Messiah. This again is equivalent to . . . the last of the days, ver. 16." [E Henderson, 'The Book of The Prophet Ezekiel,' Warren F. Draper, 1870, Eze 38:8, p.191]

Other ways to identify ancient Israel, and the reason for their punishment, are as follows:

1. The people of Israel had been previously brought out of captivity:

"After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, . . . upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land." -- Eze 38:8, 12

2. Israel was polluting the Lords name:

"So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, the Holy One in Israel." -- Eze 39:7

3. Israel was to be sent again into captivity by the Lord, and later restored to their land:

"And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword. . . When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;" -- Eze 39:23, 27

4. The weapons and mode of transportation used against Israel were ancient:

"I will smite thy bow out of thy left hand, and will cause thine arrows to fall out of thy right hand. . . And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:" -- Eze 39:2-3, 9

"Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord God." -- Eze 39:20

"And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army:" -- Eze 38:15

5. The purpose of attacking Israel was to plunder her silver, gold, cattle and goods:

"To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land. Sheba, and Dedan, and the merchants of Tarshish, with all the young lions thereof, shall say unto thee, Art thou come to take a spoil? hast thou gathered thy company to take a prey? to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to take a great spoil?" -- Eze 38:12-13

6. The only recorded instance of Israel going into captivity between the return from Babylon and the days of Christ occurred during the days of Antiochus IV, about 175 BC:

"When the Jews returned out of Babylon, repossessing their own land, they dwelt safely, confidently, without fear or disquietment therein, for four hundred and thirty years, saith Sanctius; after which time Antiochus did sorely vex them, and interrupt their peace, which they thought would be everlasting. So did Demetrius, Nicanor, and others, as in the Maccabees is evident." [William Greenhill, 'An Exposition of the Prophet Ezekiel,' James Nichol, 1864, Eze 38:8, p.756]

"A storm comes suddenly, violently, with noise, and doth much hurt, breaking and bearing down all before it: such should the coming of Gog be. Dan. xi. 40, 41, it is said, "The king of the north shall come against the king of the south like a whirlwind. He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown." This is spoken of Antiochus, whom divers expositors make to be Gog." [William Greenhill, 'An Exposition of the Prophet Ezekiel,' James Nichol, 1864, Eze 38:9, pp.756-57]

"And when [Antiochus] had pillaged the whole city, some of the inhabitants he slew, and some he carried captive, together with their wives and children, so that the multitude of those captives that were taken alive amounted to about ten thousand." [Flavius Josephus, 'The Complete Works: Antiquities of the Jews,' Christian Classics Ethereal Library, Book XII.5.4, Eze 39:28, p.648]

"And the merchants of the country, hearing the fame of them, took silver and gold very much, with servants, and came into the camp to buy the children of Israel for slaves: a power also of Syria and of the land of the Philistines joined themselves unto them." -- 1Mac 3:41

"Now it is said, This shall be in the latter days, namely, in the latter days of the Old-Testament church; so the mischief that Antiochus did to Israel was; but in the latter days of the New-Testament church another like enemy should arise, that should in like manner be defeated." [Matthew Henry, 'Henry Commentary Vol IV (Isa to Mal),' Christian Classics Ethereal Library, 1712, Ezek.38:16, p.1394]

"Our translators have added unwalled (vs.38:11,) but quite unnecessarily, since this idea is sufficiently expressed afterwards in the verse. The word . . . properly signifies open country, in contradistinction to towns and cities. Compare Esther ix. 19. The unsuspecting confidence of the restored Hebrews is here graphically described. What is stated may have literally been the case, or the language may be expressive of the contempt with which Antiochus regarded them, conceiving that they would fall an easy prey into his hands." [E. Henderson, 'The Book of The Prophet Ezekiel,' Warren F. Draper, 1870, Eze 38:11, pp.191-92]

7. The forces that came against Israel were thoroughly defeated by both God and Israel with ancient weapons of war; not simply by fire from God out of heaven as depicted in Revelation 20:9,

"It is here foretold that this furious formidable enemy should be utterly cut off in this attempt upon Israel, and that it should issue in his own ruin. This is supposed by many to have its accomplishment in the many defeats given by the Maccabees to the forces of Antiochus and the remarkable judgments of God executed upon his own person, for he died of sore diseases. But these things are here foretold, as usual, in figurative expressions, which we are not to look for the literal accomplishment of, and yet they might be fulfilled nearer the letter than we know of." [Matthew Henry, 'Henry Commentary Vol IV (Isa to Mal),' Christian Classics Ethereal Library, 1712, Ezek 38:18-20, p.1394]

.

Therefore, a reasonable conclusion to the matter would be that the Gog and Magog of the Revelation are nations throughout the earth that attack the world-wide Church; while Ezekiel's Gog and his allies attacked ancient Israel.

Biblewriter · Nov 17, 2014

Rev20 said:
That is what I believe. I realize this does not fit the narrative and talking points of many doctrines; but the Gog and Magog in the Revelation goes after the church worldwide (the breadth of the earth is, by definition, the entire earth). The "camp of the saints" is depicted in the New Covenant as the Church, and its early members:

"Which thing I [Paul] also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them." -- Acts 26:10
"Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:" -- 1Cor 1:2
"Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:" -- Eph 1:1
"Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints." -- Jude 1:3
.

A "thousand years" earlier than Satan's assault, the beast and the Great harlot (Babylon) also made war with the saints and/or killed them:

"And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. . . And there was given unto him [the beast] a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. . . And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations." -- Rev 13:1, 5, 7
"And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. . . And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth." -- Rev 18:2, 24
The Great harlot was identified by Christ as first-century Jerusalem due to its responsibility for the blood of the prophets:

". . . I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute: That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation." -- Luke 11:49-51
"Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem." -- Luke 13:33
.

Gog and Magog in Ezekiel 38 & 39 were ancient armies going after Israel after their return from captivity, and before the days of Christ, since He ministered in the last days:

"And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes." -- Eze 38:16
"God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;" -- Heb 1:1-2
"The specification in our prophet, however, is rendered more definite by the following statement that the attack was to be made . . . in the last of the years, which, in prophetic designations of time, denotes that which immediately preceded the coming of the Messiah. This again is equivalent to . . . the last of the days, ver. 16." [E Henderson, 'The Book of The Prophet Ezekiel,' Warren F. Draper, 1870, Eze 38:8, p.191]
Other ways to identify ancient Israel, and the reason for their punishment, are as follows:

1. The people of Israel had been previously brought out of captivity:

"After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, . . . upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land." -- Eze 38:8, 12
2. Israel was polluting the Lords name:

"So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, the Holy One in Israel." -- Eze 39:7
3. Israel was to be sent again into captivity by the Lord, and later restored to their land:

"And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword. . . When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;" -- Eze 39:23, 27
4. The weapons and mode of transportation used against Israel were ancient:

"I will smite thy bow out of thy left hand, and will cause thine arrows to fall out of thy right hand. . . And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:" -- Eze 39:2-3, 9
"Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord God." -- Eze 39:20
"And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army:" -- Eze 38:15
5. The purpose of attacking Israel was to plunder her silver, gold, cattle and goods:

"To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land. Sheba, and Dedan, and the merchants of Tarshish, with all the young lions thereof, shall say unto thee, Art thou come to take a spoil? hast thou gathered thy company to take a prey? to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to take a great spoil?" -- Eze 38:12-13
6. The only recorded instance of Israel going into captivity between the return from Babylon and the days of Christ occurred during the days of Antiochus IV, about 175 BC:

"When the Jews returned out of Babylon, repossessing their own land, they dwelt safely, confidently, without fear or disquietment therein, for four hundred and thirty years, saith Sanctius; after which time Antiochus did sorely vex them, and interrupt their peace, which they thought would be everlasting. So did Demetrius, Nicanor, and others, as in the Maccabees is evident." [William Greenhill, 'An Exposition of the Prophet Ezekiel,' James Nichol, 1864, Eze 38:8, p.756]
"A storm comes suddenly, violently, with noise, and doth much hurt, breaking and bearing down all before it: such should the coming of Gog be. Dan. xi. 40, 41, it is said, "The king of the north shall come against the king of the south like a whirlwind. He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown." This is spoken of Antiochus, whom divers expositors make to be Gog." [William Greenhill, 'An Exposition of the Prophet Ezekiel,' James Nichol, 1864, Eze 38:9, pp.756-57]
"And when [Antiochus] had pillaged the whole city, some of the inhabitants he slew, and some he carried captive, together with their wives and children, so that the multitude of those captives that were taken alive amounted to about ten thousand." [Flavius Josephus, 'The Complete Works: Antiquities of the Jews,' Christian Classics Ethereal Library, Book XII.5.4, Eze 39:28, p.648]
"And the merchants of the country, hearing the fame of them, took silver and gold very much, with servants, and came into the camp to buy the children of Israel for slaves: a power also of Syria and of the land of the Philistines joined themselves unto them." -- 1Mac 3:41
"Now it is said, This shall be in the latter days, namely, in the latter days of the Old-Testament church; so the mischief that Antiochus did to Israel was; but in the latter days of the New-Testament church another like enemy should arise, that should in like manner be defeated." [Matthew Henry, 'Henry Commentary Vol IV (Isa to Mal),' Christian Classics Ethereal Library, 1712, Ezek.38:16, p.1394]
"Our translators have added unwalled (vs.38:11,) but quite unnecessarily, since this idea is sufficiently expressed afterwards in the verse. The word . . . properly signifies open country, in contradistinction to towns and cities. Compare Esther ix. 19. The unsuspecting confidence of the restored Hebrews is here graphically described. What is stated may have literally been the case, or the language may be expressive of the contempt with which Antiochus regarded them, conceiving that they would fall an easy prey into his hands." [E. Henderson, 'The Book of The Prophet Ezekiel,' Warren F. Draper, 1870, Eze 38:11, pp.191-92]
7. The forces that came against Israel were thoroughly defeated by both God and Israel with ancient weapons of war; not simply by fire from God out of heaven as depicted in Revelation 20:9,

"It is here foretold that this furious formidable enemy should be utterly cut off in this attempt upon Israel, and that it should issue in his own ruin. This is supposed by many to have its accomplishment in the many defeats given by the Maccabees to the forces of Antiochus and the remarkable judgments of God executed upon his own person, for he died of sore diseases. But these things are here foretold, as usual, in figurative expressions, which we are not to look for the literal accomplishment of, and yet they might be fulfilled nearer the letter than we know of." [Matthew Henry, 'Henry Commentary Vol IV (Isa to Mal),' Christian Classics Ethereal Library, 1712, Ezek 38:18-20, p.1394]
.

Therefore, a reasonable conclusion to the matter would be that the Gog and Magog of the Revelation are nations throughout the earth that attack the world-wide Church; while Ezekiel's Gog and his allies attacked ancient Israel.

Reasonable conclusions cannot replace simple attention to what the scriptures actually say.

No ancient attack on Israel came from the nations specifically named in Ezekiel 38:1-5. And Israel again turned away from the Lord after every ancient deliverance that ever occurred. So the permanent restoration so explicitly stated in Ezekiel 39:7 and 29 has never taken place.

Interplanner · Nov 20, 2014

Yes, it occurred, because the Spirit was poured out to accomplish what the Messianic age is about.

Belly Rumble · Nov 23, 2014

Here is the Book in the Bible that should be used to clear up Revelation chapter 14!!! This 5 chapter Book explains why "One like the Son of Man" is shown sitting on a cloud with a sickle in His Hand reaping at the 7th Trumpet. It also explains why an angel is reaping at the same time "One like Jesus" reaps. This Book also explains which city in the Middle East is the Great Wine-press of God mentioned in Revelation 14. This Book also explains that the "Day of His Fierce Anger" lasts for 45 days not 1 day like I have been saying all along. Thank you Father for correcting me on that. The 5 chapter Book that clears up Revelation 14 is: ***LAMENTATIONS***. This book is found in the Old Testament between Jeremiah and Ezekiel. This Book is bad news for Israel because we get a better understanding of just how upset Father is with Israel for ignoring Him and torturing His Son Jesus. Chapter 14 of Revelation is the Great Wheat Harvest that follows the 7th Trumpet Blast. The Wheat and the Tares have been growing together for hundreds of years now. Revelation 14 is specifically concerned with the Wheat and Tares in Israel even though they can be found in every country on Earth. The Tares are the same types of Individuals in Israel that denied that Jesus was and is the Messiah back in those days. They are the majority of Israelis today. The Wheat knows their Shepherd and they are very few in number in Israel today. Only about 2 % of the population. Many of whom are Arab. But the good news for Israelis today is that Father is going to send them Moses & Elijah back to Jerusalem to preach for 3 1/2 years before the "Day of His Fierce Anger "against Israel. In addition to them, Father is also raising up now as we speak 144,000 messianic Jewish young men in Israel that are being taught that the Holy Bible is the complete Word of God. They will teach boldly during the same 3 1/2 years that Moses and Elijah begin their Witness of Jesus. I wouldn't be surprised if the Christian population within Israel jumps from its current state of 2% of the population to 12% of the population by the Time of the 7th Trumpet. The only reason I used 12% there is because of the parable of the Sower and the Seed (Matthew 13). (Only 1 of the 8 Seeds that are being cast end up on good ground. {4 seeds cast by Jesus & 4 seeds cast by Satan}. To recap the highlights of the last 7 years of this Age we have: Seals 1 - 4 being the first 3 1/2 years. This is a time of Tribulation for the whole Earth called the "Beginning of Sorrows". This is World War 3 with a worldwide Economic Implosion and a Demand for Oil like you wouldn't believe. Millions of People will die. At the midpoint we have the 10 Nation (Horn) alliance (Peace for Oil) already in place. By the midpoint of the 7 year period Christians will have gotten on everyone's nerves especially in Israel. The 5th Seal will be opened and Christians will be slaughtered everywhere to include Israel. This is followed by the Antichrist sneaking his way into the rebuilt Jewish Temple and declaring to the world via video that he has set up an image in the Jewish Holy of Holies and now is the true time for Jihad. You then have the 6th Seal Heavenly Signs beginning the "Day of the Lord" period. The main part of the Day of the Lord period is called the "Wrath of the Lamb" It lasts from the 7th Seal to the 6th Trumpet. Here Jesus (in heaven) is cracking the whip against Israel & the Middle Eastern nations for the killing of all the Christians. Israel will come under attack by the Antichrist and eventually (Russia by the 6th Trumpet). Picture the time that Jesus went into the Temple and found the way that Jews were treating it. Remember how mad He got and starting cracking the whip. During the first 6 Trumpet Judgments Moses, Elijah, and the 144,000 messianic young preachers will be begging the Christians to flee Israel especially Jerusalem. They will also be explaining to Israel why and by what methods they are being struck by Jesus and Father. Many Jews will convert. Israel remains under attack for 3 1/2 years before they finally break. When Russia joins in around the time of the 6th Trumpet it can't hold out much longer. How much help will America be by that point I do not know. At the blast of the 7th Trumpet, Israel's enemies break through their walls. In Revelation 14 & Lamentations Jesus is shown as "One like the Son of Man" sitting on a {{cloud}}. He is invisible here. This is not His second Coming with all His Glory. This is not the 7th Trumpet Rapture. At Jerusalem's fall Jesus and his Angels gather the souls of the Wheat and the Tares who are killed by the invading army that comes in like a "FLOOD". Jesus said in His Word in the Book of Daniel that from the time of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet (fall of Jerusalem) unto the Wedding Day (Jesus' Coming Visibly) is 45 days. The 7th Trumpet sounds 1,290 days after the Abomination of Desolation is set up in the Temple by the Antichrist. The wedding day (7th Bowl) (Fall of Babylon) is 1,335 days after the Abomination of Desolation. This 45 day period is the 7th Trumpet. It lasts that long. The 7th Trumpet period does not last 1 day. Therefore when some people say that Jesus will return at the 7th Trumpet they are in a sense correct. But, He returns on the last day of the 7th Trumpet period not the first day. This is what Jesus means by the patience of the Saints. (Lamentations 3:25 & Revelation 14:12). You have to realize that it will take 45 days for the Antichrist Army to get all Jews out of Jerusalem. The leaders of his army will decide who they will take back to their various nations as Slaves and who will be executed. Lamentations 1:18 says that the young men and young ladies will be the ones taken away as slaves. It may be that they are given a choice to take the Mark of the Beast and agree to spend the rest of their lives as slaves or die like every else. Revelation 14 says that the Jews will be lined up in a ditch an executed outside of the city of Jerusalem. There dead bodies will be stacked 5 bodies high (the height of horses bridles) in this ditch and this ditch will be as long as 1600 furlongs. This will make the rivers and streams blood red literally. The execution is called the Great Winepress. This will act like a threshing floor where the wheat will be separated from the Tares inside Israel. There are other wine-presses during these days but this is the Great Winepress of God. The entire 3 1/2 year period will be hell for Israel. Not only will they starve to death because they are totally besieged by Russia and the Muslim confederation, but Jesus and Father will be pouring out their wrath against them. Jesus for 6 trumpets and Father for the last 7th Trumpet. Lamentations 3:15 even tells us that the Plague of Wormwood (3rd Trumpet) mentioned in Revelation chapter 8 actually falls on Israel's waters. They are the focus of Father's Wrath up until Jesus returns in Person at the 7th Bowl (Day 1335). Then He remembers His Love for His People and takes 12 hours of that day starting at evening time (Isaiah 17:14) and by morning all of Israel's enemies are defeated. Jesus will reign from Jerusalem over the entire planet for 1,000 years. He will be very Jewish and demand that His people be brought back from all over the world. God Bless Brothers and Sisters

Interplanner · Nov 23, 2014

Belly,
I see you're good at pasting.

What is the summary idea of the above post in a single line?

The Identity of Gog and His Allies.

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1 COR. 10:11; HEB. 1:2; HEB. 9:26,28; 1 PET. 1:20

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