Blow the Trumpet

keras said:

As many as the sands of the sea, Rev20?
It would be nicer if you prefaced your statements with; I think, or this is what I believe, if you can't prove them with Bible quotes or historical proofs.

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Keras, I have no incentive to deny the Lord. He is my Lord and Saviour, and he wrote this:



Only a remnant of Israel was saved, Keras.

Keras, re your Israelites are the Christian people line:
whoa. Did you just call the church the new Israel?

keras said:

So where does that leave us today? That Isaiah prophecy, repeated in Romans, was partly fulfilled in 536 BCE, but from the context, we see it awaits a final fulfillment

What you cannot, or you refuse to see, is that the Israelites are the Christian peoples. Proved by Rev. 7:9, but all those who are but nominal Christians will be purged, Ezekiel 20:34-38, so just a remnant will go to live in the Holy Land.

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Keras, the scripture states that the commonwealth of Israel became the Church (or, it was the Church all along.) But it was not until the Gentiles were allowed into the commonwealth (Acts 10) that the promises to Abraham could be fulfilled:


The Church consists of both the faithful children of Israel and the faithful Gentiles, Keras. There is no other Church; and there is no other Israel. And this is the promise to Abraham that was fulfilled when the door to the promises was opened to the Gentiles:

The greatest percent? Ha, far in the minority! It's even in the details of the doctrine of what the new redeemed community would be like that Paul explained. He kept saying there would be so few from Israel, but the nations and the distant shores would see the light of the Gospel and believe.

Do you have a system for switching back and forth between those who believe and those who are genetic, as needed?

keras said:

But now they are: as many as the sands of the sea, a vast multitude. Revelation 7:9

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No, Keras. Only a remnant is saved. The remainder were cast away. How many times must scripture be presented before you will believe it?

keras said:

It would be nicer if you prefaced your statements with; I think, or this is what I believe, if you can't prove them with Bible quotes or historical proofs.

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But I can and have, Keras. Many times. You are the one who cannot prove what you wrote because it is all man-made doctrine. This is how it went:

The northern tribes of Israel (most of them) was kicked out of the land and taken into captivity by the Assyrians for their many sins and acts of disobedience. Some of Israel who escaped captivity later joined with Judah under the commandment (or decree) of King Hezekiah:




About a hundred years later, Judah was also kicked out of its land by the Chaldeans (Babylonians) for the same reasons. The Chaldeans also destroyed Jerusalem and the temple.

About 40 years after the temple was destroyed, the nations of Media and Persia defeated the Chaldeans. The first king, Cyrus, was a benevolent king who did much to help Israel return to its land. The Lord even called this Persian king "his anointed:"


The decree of Cyrus, king of Persia (Ezra 1:1-3), went out to all of God's people; and some from all tribes returned. Ezekiel 37:15-19 is essentially a summary of the return from captivity by Israel and Judah, beginning around 537 BC; and the partial rejoining of the two kingdoms into one kingdom, named Judah, under the government of Zerubbabel of the house of David. The book of Ezra confirms that "all Israel" returned to their cities; but as Isaiah 10:20-24 pointed out, only a small remnant of the original number of the northern tribes returned. This is the regathering under Judah, as presented by the Septuagint (LXX):


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The Restoration of Israel began in three waves of returnees in the days of Sheshbazzar (Ezra 1:8, 537BC); Zerubbabel (Ezra 2:2, 522BC); and Ezra (Ezra 8:1, 458BC.) Ezekiel 37:19 explains how Israel and Judah were joined together under the leadership of Judah:




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There were many devout Jews and Israelites that remained in the nations of their captivity. There was a second "rejoining" or regathering of the remnant under Christ:


In fulfilment of the prophecy of Isaiah, Jesus said that he was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel; and he sent his disciples (initially) only to the lost sheep:



Those he regathered were a part of the chosen remnant, the elect, which Paul wrote of in Romans.

Recall that on the day of Pentecost, there were devout Jews in Jerusalem "out of every nation under heaven" (Acts 2:5,) from:


Those cities cover most (if not all) of the areas to which the children of Israel were carried away captive by the Assyrians and Babylonians. We can only assume that, after conversion, those Jews carried the Gospel via the Holy Spirit back their cities because Peter and James wrote to the Jewish elect who remained in the dispersed areas:



Peter also mentioned the Mesopotamian church of Babylon (1Pet 5:13), which was an actual church of the Diaspora in the days of Peter (contrary to the doctrine of myth-makers.) Recall that in Acts 2:9 (above) some of the devout Jews were from areas that comprised the Babylonian, Persian and Median empires. In the days of Peter, the Diaspora were common in those areas and cities:

Elam - Southern Iran
Medes - Central Iran
Parthia - Northern Iran, near Caspian Sea
. . . . Ecbatana
Mesopotamia - Between Tigris and Euphrates
. . . . Babylon
. . . . Seleucia
. . . . Pumbeditha
. . . . Nehardea
. . . . Ctesiphon
. . . . Nippur
. . . . Susa
. . . . Spasinou Charax

So, as Paul wrote, "all Israel shall be saved" (Rom 11:26,) but "they are not all Israel, which are of Israel" (Rom 9:6.) Isaiah was more to the point:


Who were the very small remnant that Isaiah (and Paul) wrote of? They were those who were faithful and obedient. This is Moses with the promise, and Peter with the fulfillment:



There were not many of them:


The rest were rejected.

It all fits, Keras.

keras said:

Your mistake, IP and Rev20, is in thinking Paul is referring to all the 12 tribes when he says there will be only a few saved from Israel. [a remnant] But he is talking to the Jews there and we can blame the translators for calling the Jews, Israel. This is the confusion today, as well, with the Land of the Jewish people being called Israel.

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No, Keras. The so-called "Jews" had consisted of all twelve tribes since the restoration under Cyrus. Further, Christ and the disciples did not confine themselves to only Jerusalem and Judaea; but rather sought out the lost sheep in all former areas of the captivity.
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keras said:

Yes; it is the peoples of the 'coasts and islands' who have received the Gospel and become Christians. I am a New Zealand Christian. It is us, Christians of the Western nations, who are actual descendants of the ten tribes, who migrated westward from their Assyrian exile. They fulfilled the prophesies of Jacob and Moses; Ephraim, a commonwealth of nations and Manasseh, a great nation. Britain and the USA respectively. They held the 'gateways of the world' and it is we who have spread the Gospel to all the world.

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Keras, that is one of the craziest things I have ever heard. It exceeds even dispensational craziness.

Just for curiosity, who were these fellows?

keras said:

Your mistake, IP and Rev20, is in thinking Paul is referring to all the 12 tribes when he says there will be only a few saved from Israel. [a remnant] But he is talking to the Jews there and we can blame the translators for calling the Jews, Israel. This is the confusion today, as well, with the Land of the Jewish people being called Israel.
Yes; it is the peoples of the 'coasts and islands' who have received the Gospel and become Christians. I am a New Zealand Christian. It is us, Christians of the Western nations, who are actual descendants of the ten tribes, who migrated westward from their Assyrian exile. They fulfilled the prophesies of Jacob and Moses; Ephraim, a commonwealth of nations and Manasseh, a great nation. Britain and the USA respectively. They held the 'gateways of the world' and it is we who have spread the Gospel to all the world.
If you deny the truth of all that, you simply put God's promises to the Patriarchs and to His people into the waste bin.
Part of God's plan for His creation, is to have a nation living in the Holy Land, being a light to the other nations and displaying his glory. This will happen, very soon He will 'blow the Trumpet', shake the world, burn up His enemies and gather His righteous people. Great will be the Day!

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Keras, you're making the mistake! The NT NEVER EVER differentiates Judah and Israel! To do so wouldn't make sense of the NT.

As a matter of fact, in doing so, you're not understanding what happened after Israel returned from Babylonian exile, which was prophesied by Ezekiel at Ezekiel 37:15-28. They were no longer a divided kingdom and neither Jesus nor the apostles EVER referred to Israel that way!

keras said:

So Ebed, you contend that Ezekiel 37 has taken place. For starters, there is no mention of anything like what is described happening by Nehemiah or Ezra.
Did they receive the Holy Spirit then? Ezekiel 37:14
Did they all live there forever after 535 BCE? Ezekiel 37:25
Did God make an everlasting Covenant with them and place His sanctuary there for all time? Ezekiel 37:26-27

Re the NT differentiating between Israel and Judah: what nation is Jesus referring to in Matthew 21:43 ?

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Well Keras...you have to think a little bit with the entirety of the prophecy. I will challenge you to read those verses carefully.

keras said:

So Ebed, you contend that Ezekiel 37 has taken place. For starters, there is no mention of anything like what is described happening by Nehemiah or Ezra.
Did they receive the Holy Spirit then? Ezekiel 37:14
Did they all live there forever after 535 BCE? Ezekiel 37:25
Did God make an everlasting Covenant with them and place His sanctuary there for all time? Ezekiel 37:26-27

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Ezekiel 37 was fulfilled upon the return of Juda and Israel from Babylon, under Zerubbabel, son of David. You might understand that if your agenda did not contradict it.
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keras said:

Re the NT differentiating between Israel and Judah: what nation is Jesus referring to in Matthew 21:43 ?

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Jesus was referring to a promise the Lord made to all Israel in the days of Moses. Read carefully the original promise, and the fulfillment as explained by Peter. In particular notice the conditions.



So, Israel is the holy nation; but not in the flesh, but rather in the spirit. Only those that hear His voice are a part of that nation. And who heard Jesus' voice?


Jesus was only sent to those sheep, and he initially sent his disciples only to those sheep:



The lost sheep of the house of Israel became that royal priesthood, and that holy nation. Christianity is built upon the "foundations" of the lost sheep.

In Peter's letter to the lost sheep, he identified some of the areas where they lived:


I believe I mentioned some of the other areas where they were scattered in previous posts.

keras said:

Be nice, Ebed, if you actually answered my questions.
Rev20, It is your agenda that contradicts Eze 37, otherwise we are mostly in agreement, its just the extent of the area where those 'lost sheep' are living now.

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Keras, I am not a futurist, so I don't have an agenda. And since I don't have an agenda, I don't have to manipulate parables to make them fit an agenda. Ezekiel 37 is a straightforward parable of the rejoining and return of the exiles to Israel, under the leadership of Judah, the way it was before they split. They key passage is this:


But all of Ezekiel is written in parabolic form, and all has been fulfilled. Attempts to cherry pick parts of those parables to force them to fit some imaginary, future event will always fail.
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keras said:

You say they are the Christian peoples, now 'scattered among the nations'. Amos 9:9, James 1:1, and then Ezekiel 34:11-16 says how the Lord will search for His sheep, from wherever they are 'on the Day of cloud and darkness'. That refers to the Day of the Lord's wrath, the soon to happen disaster that will change the world. Denial of that truth will not help you or make the Lord to not do as He has planned. Jeremiah 4:28

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The day of wrath occurred during the last days, in the first century, in the land of Judaea, and in particular, in the city of Jerusalem, the Great harlot. You will never understand the new covenant until you understand the timing of that event. A good start would be to understand that the ministry of Christ and day of Pentecost occurred in the last days:

There aren't any restoration passages without the outpouring of the Spirit. For this reason, many interpreters miss what happened in Acts 2 two ways: they see the coming of the Spirit, but it is not the age promised, acc. to them; 2, they see Israel back in the land in 1948, but it doesn't matter to them that the Spirit of God is not at work as in Acts 2.

The way the prophets depict the return after exile, it points to and climaxes in the Spirit of God at work. this is because they are not after all interested in just reconstructing a state of Israel. What really matters is the mission to the nations. And this is an automatic thing once Messiah comes; what he does is going to become a message or word or proclamation (the Gospel) and that is what the Messianic age is about. That is his kingdom. All Israel could have become the light to the nations in Messiah's own light (Acts 13:47 quoting Isaiah).

keras said:

Be nice, Ebed, if you actually answered my questions.

Rev20, It is your agenda that contradicts Eze 37, otherwise we are mostly in agreement, its just the extent of the area where those 'lost sheep' are living now. You say they are the Christian peoples, now 'scattered among the nations'. Amos 9:9, James 1:1, and then Ezekiel 34:11-16 says how the Lord will search for His sheep, from wherever they are 'on the Day of cloud and darkness'. That refers to the Day of the Lord's wrath, the soon to happen disaster that will change the world. Denial of that truth will not help you or make the Lord to not do as He has planned. Jeremiah 4:28

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I am being nice Keras. If you even bothered to study Revelation you would be able to see how John and Ezekiel are so closely together...but you don't.

What you do in Ezekiel 37 is understand Jesus, Peter and Paul clears this up. Look at this:

Jesus in John 10:14-17
14 I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me,
15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
16 I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.
17 For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again.

Now...Ezekiel 37:24:
24 “My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd;

How about Paul in Romans 9:6-8...you know the passage, BUT...for some reason you ignore it:
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.”
8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

The TRUE DESCENDANTS of Abraham are all who have faith in Christ. Don't be offended, but you show great ignorance when you refuse to acknowledge the TRUE DESCENDANTS are DESCENDED FROM ABRAHAM SPIRITUALLY. Paul told you that in Romans 4:13:
13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Now Peter in 1 Peter 2:9, 10:
9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 for you once were not a people, but now you are the people of God; you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

Ezekiel 37 embraces the NEW COVENANT Keras! You have missed that, and that is why you have the erroneous view you have.

Lastly, I will quote Jesus in a popular verse to show you what Ezekiel 37 is also saying...John 3:16:
16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Now...Ezekiel 37 makes sense!...it's THE ISRAEL of God! All those who have the faith of Abraham..ARE THE TRUE DESCENDANTS!!

Here is the Book in the Bible that should be used to clear up Revelation chapter 14!!! This 5 chapter Book explains why "One like the Son of Man" is shown sitting on a cloud with a sickle in His Hand reaping at the 7th Trumpet. It also explains why an angel is reaping at the same time "One like Jesus" reaps. This Book also explains which city in the Middle East is the Great Wine-press of God mentioned in Revelation 14. This Book also explains that the "Day of His Fierce Anger" lasts for 45 days not 1 day like I have been saying all along. Thank you Father for correcting me on that. The 5 chapter Book that clears up Revelation 14 is: ***LAMENTATIONS***. This book is found in the Old Testament between Jeremiah and Ezekiel. This Book is bad news for Israel because we get a better understanding of just how upset Father is with Israel for ignoring Him and torturing His Son Jesus. Chapter 14 of Revelation is the Great Wheat Harvest that follows the 7th Trumpet Blast. The Wheat and the Tares have been growing together for hundreds of years now. Revelation 14 is specifically concerned with the Wheat and Tares in Israel even though they can be found in every country on Earth. The Tares are the same types of Individuals in Israel that denied that Jesus was and is the Messiah back in those days. They are the majority of Israelis today. The Wheat knows their Shepherd and they are very few in number in Israel today. Only about 2 % of the population. Many of whom are Arab. But the good news for Israelis today is that Father is going to send them Moses & Elijah back to Jerusalem to preach for 3 1/2 years before the "Day of His Fierce Anger "against Israel. In addition to them, Father is also raising up now as we speak 144,000 messianic Jewish young men in Israel that are being taught that the Holy Bible is the complete Word of God. They will teach boldly during the same 3 1/2 years that Moses and Elijah begin their Witness of Jesus. I wouldn't be surprised if the Christian population within Israel jumps from its current state of 2% of the population to 12% of the population by the Time of the 7th Trumpet. The only reason I used 12% there is because of the parable of the “Sower and the Seed” (Matthew 13). (Only 1 of the 8 Seeds that are being cast end up on good ground. {4 seeds cast by Jesus & 4 seeds cast by Satan}. To recap the highlights of the last 7 years of this Age we have: Seals 1 - 4 being the first 3 1/2 years. This is a time of Tribulation for the whole Earth called the "Beginning of Sorrows". This is World War 3 with a worldwide Economic Implosion and a Demand for Oil like you wouldn't believe. Millions of People will die. At the midpoint we have the 10 Nation (Horn) alliance (Peace for Oil) already in place. By the midpoint of the 7 year period Christians will have gotten on everyone's nerves especially in Israel. The 5th Seal will be opened and Christians will be slaughtered everywhere to include Israel. This is followed by the Antichrist sneaking his way into the rebuilt Jewish Temple and declaring to the world via video that he has set up an image in the Jewish Holy of Holies and now is the true time for Jihad. You then have the 6th Seal Heavenly Signs beginning the "Day of the Lord" period. The main part of the Day of the Lord period is called the "Wrath of the Lamb" It lasts from the 7th Seal to the 6th Trumpet. Here Jesus (in heaven) is cracking the whip against Israel & the Middle Eastern nations for the killing of all the Christians. Israel will come under attack by the Antichrist and eventually (Russia by the 6th Trumpet). Picture the time that Jesus went into the Temple and found the way that Jews were treating it. Remember how mad He got and starting cracking the whip. During the first 6 Trumpet Judgments Moses, Elijah, and the 144,000 messianic young preachers will be begging the Christians to flee Israel especially Jerusalem. They will also be explaining to Israel why and by what methods they are being struck by Jesus and Father. Many Jews will convert. Israel remains under attack for 3 1/2 years before they finally break. When Russia joins in around the time of the 6th Trumpet it can't hold out much longer. How much help will America be by that point I do not know. At the blast of the 7th Trumpet, Israel's enemies break through their walls. In Revelation 14 & Lamentations Jesus is shown as "One like the Son of Man" sitting on a {{cloud}}. He is invisible here. This is not His second Coming with all His Glory. This is not the 7th Trumpet Rapture. At Jerusalem's fall Jesus and his Angels gather the souls of the Wheat and the Tares who are killed by the invading army that comes in like a "FLOOD". Jesus said in His Word in the Book of Daniel that from the time of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet (fall of Jerusalem) unto the Wedding Day (Jesus' Coming Visibly) is 45 days. The 7th Trumpet sounds 1,290 days after the Abomination of Desolation is set up in the Temple by the Antichrist. The wedding day (7th Bowl) (Fall of Babylon) is 1,335 days after the Abomination of Desolation. This 45 day period is the 7th Trumpet. It lasts that long. The 7th Trumpet period does not last 1 day. Therefore when some people say that Jesus will return at the 7th Trumpet they are in a sense correct. But, He returns on the last day of the 7th Trumpet period not the first day. This is what Jesus means by the patience of the Saints. (Lamentations 3:25 & Revelation 14:12). You have to realize that it will take 45 days for the Antichrist Army to get all Jews out of Jerusalem. The leaders of his army will decide who they will take back to their various nations as Slaves and who will be executed. Lamentations 1:18 says that the young men and young ladies will be the ones taken away as slaves. It may be that they are given a choice to take the Mark of the Beast and agree to spend the rest of their lives as slaves or die like every else. Revelation 14 says that the Jews will be lined up in a ditch an executed outside of the city of Jerusalem. There dead bodies will be stacked 5 bodies high (the height of horses bridles) in this ditch and this ditch will be as long as 1600 furlongs. This will make the rivers and streams blood red literally. The execution is called the Great Winepress. This will act like a threshing floor where the wheat will be separated from the Tares inside Israel. There are other wine-presses during these days but this is the Great Winepress of God. The entire 3 1/2 year period will be hell for Israel. Not only will they starve to death because they are totally besieged by Russia and the Muslim confederation, but Jesus and Father will be pouring out their wrath against them. Jesus for 6 trumpets and Father for the last 7th Trumpet. Lamentations 3:15 even tells us that the Plague of Wormwood (3rd Trumpet) mentioned in Revelation chapter 8 actually falls on Israel's waters. They are the focus of Father's Wrath up until Jesus returns in Person at the 7th Bowl (Day 1335). Then He remembers His Love for His People and takes 12 hours of that day starting at evening time (Isaiah 17:14) and by morning all of Israel's enemies are defeated. Jesus will reign from Jerusalem over the entire planet for 1,000 years. He will be very Jewish and demand that His people be brought back from all over the world. God Bless Brothers and Sisters