The Partial Preterist Believers Safe House

I might add, this article presents one of the best and intriguing identifications of Paul's "Man of Sin" (DO READ THIS ARTICLE!):

What about Paul's "Man of Sin"?

By John Noē


Who First Had to be Revealed?

The Apostle Paul wrote that the coming (parousia) of the Lord would not take place until the rebellion occurs and the "man of sin" (KJV) or "man of lawlessness" (NIV) was revealed. We suggest you read about it in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 before continuing on. This revealing was a definite prerequisite!

The most popular postponement tradition claims that this wicked one is some future "Antichrist" figure who has yet to be revealed. Over the centuries, he has been variously identified as Attila the Hun, Napoleon, the Pope, Martin Luther, Mohammed, Hilter, Mussolini, Stalin, Franklin Roosevelt, Henry Kissinger; and Mikhail Gorbachev. Virtually every unpopular public figure has qualified. Obviously, this tradition has proven totally inept at identifying Paul's "man of sin" Unfortunately, it's a tradition that has not died. For a number of scriptural and historical reasons, the identity of Paul's "man of sin" should not be arbitrarily lifted out of its 1st. century context. So here's our pick: a contemporary of Paul's who fulfilled Paul's prophetic prediction and fit his destructive description to a tee. The following is a condensed version of an apologetic presented in The Man of Sin of 2nd Thessalonians 2, by Evangelist John L. Bray .

The Man of Sin. A study of 2nd Thessalonians 2:1-12. Verses 1-2. concerning the coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come."

If the understanding of the nature of the coming (return) of the Lord by Paul's first readers was in keeping with most traditional, modern-day notions of a rapture-removing, visible, world seeing, or world-ending coming, they could not have been led to believe that it had already come (see again our evidences 3 and 4 in the last chapter).

Verses 3-4. "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man lawlessness [man of sin] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction [son of perdition - KJV]. He opposes and exalts himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, and even sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God."

Paul wrote during the time of a literal, standing, second Temple. He gave no hint that this event would occur centuries later in some other "rebuilt" temple. His first readers apparently expected this fulfillment in their lifetime. That's why some feared that that "day of the Lord" had already occurred. Also, let's note how Paul's prophetic words here match up with Jesus' Olivet Discourse (Mt. 24). Both speak of the same set of events, use similar language, and convey a strong sense of imminence.

History records that the Jewish rebellion against Rome and apostasy from the faith was already underway in the early 60s, and reached its climax in the Jewish-Roman War of A.D. 66 - 70. We propose that Paul's "man of sin" was, most likely, a specific person who set himself up in the Temple that was standing when Paul was writing. He could have been (take your pick) Nero, Titus, a Zealot leader; the corrupt chief high priest, or a Christian Zealot. All except Nero physically entered the Temple. Though Paul never calls him "antichrist;' the Apostle John tells us that there were many "antichrists" at work at that time (1 Jn. 2:18; 4:3). No doubt this "man of sin" was one of them. But he was also a special person who had to come on the scene prior to the Lord's return in A.D. 70 and before the Temple was destroyed.

Verses 5-7. "Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way"

Paul had mentioned this power of lawlessness on other occasions (see 1 Th. 2:14-16; 1 Ti. 4:1). The Jews were revolting against Rome and rejecting the sacred practice of biblical Judaism. Some followers of Christ who remained zealous for the Temple system were departing from the new faith and falling back into the old ways. But behind it all was "the secret power of lawlessness." It was "already at work," there and then, but something and/or someone was holding the "man of sin" back at the time Paul wrote this letter (circa A.D. 51 - 52). Whatever that was, Paul reminded his first readers that they already knew its/his identity. So Paul didn't have to tell them. And he didn't. Since they knew who or what it was, it could not possibly have been something or someone that would not exist for some nineteen or more centuries. But who or what was it?

Throughout Church history endless speculation has revolved around the identity of this restrainer. However, we do know that this restraint was in force when Paul wrote,- and was actively holding back a "man of sin" alive at that time. This fact is a time indicator and should answer the question of when. Some have suggested that the "who" was Nero or the Roman government, which held back Jewish persecution of the early Jewish Christians. Futurists say it's the gospel, the Church, the Holy Spirit, or an angel. But if any of these is what was really meant, why did the writer use such veiled language? None of these things is ever portrayed in Scripture as restraining lawlessness or being removed from the world.

The best answer-we believe-is that it was both an office (the "what") and a person (the "one who" or "he"). More specifically, it was the institution of the Jewish priesthood led by Ananus, the high priest. The priesthood opposed the Jewish, Zealot-led rebellion. And Ananus wanted peace with Rome. As long as he and the priesthood stood in the way, the lawlessness of the Jewish Zealots was held back, the "work of Satan" couldn't reach its full realization, and the "man of sin" couldn't appear on the scene and cause the final destruction. In A.D. 68, however, Jewish Zealots, with the assistance of the Idumaeans, murdered Ananus and over 12,000 other priests and left their bodies unburied-a violation of the Jewish Law Thus, the priesthood was "taken out of the way" As Josephus wrote in his history of the fall of the city:

I should not mistake if I said that the death of Ananus was the beginning of the destruction of the city; and that from this very day may be dated the overthrow of her walls, and the ruin of her affairs, whereon they saw their high-priest, and the procurer of their preservation; slain in the midst of their city;. for he was thoroughly sensible that the Romans were not to be conquered. He also foresaw that of necessity a war would follow, and that unless the Jews made up matters with them very dexterously, they would be destroyed: to say all in a word, if Ananus had survived that would have certainly compounded matters... and I cannot but think that it was because God had doomed this city to destruction, as a polluted city, and was resolved to purge his sanctuary by fire, that he cut off these great defenders and wellwishers.

Verses 8-10. a Ad then the lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming [parousia]. The coming [parousia] of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved!" All this happened in the very Temple that was standing until A.D. 70. As the war between the Jews and Rome developed, a strong leader of the Jewish Zealots emerged who would fulfill Paul's prophecy. He would soon become the key man in inciting the Jews against Rome, in bringing abominations into the Temple area, and in causing the final destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. After Ananus' murder and the removal of the priesthood. Josephus records that a man named John, the son of Levi, fled to Jerusalem from the Roman conquered area of Gischala in Galilee and became the treacherous leader of the Jewish Zealots in control of the Temple area. Also Josephus wrote, "Now this was the work of God, who therefore preserved this John, that he might bring on the destruction of Jerusalem."

Josephus also records that before this John of Gischala, the son of Levi, was established as the Zealot leader in control of the Temple area (there were three Zealot factions), the power of Satan was already doing his deceitful and treacherous work. This John physically entered the Temple, presented himself to the Zealots as a God-sent ambassador; and persuaded them to defy the laws of Rome and go to war to gain independence. He also instigated the calling in the Idumaeans to keep the Jewish sympathizers from submitting to Rome. He ordered the death of Ananus and the removal of the priesthood. After these atrocities, he became the official leader of the Zealot group m control of theTemple area-john held the temple" and began disregarded the laws of Rome, God, and man, and promising deliverance from the Romans. Then he broke off from the Zealots and began "setting up a monarchial power." He "set on fire these houses that were full of corn, and of all other provision which would have been sufficient for a siege of many years" He deceived the Jews about the power of the Roman armies In possession of the Temple and the adjoining parts, he cut the throats of anyone suspected of going over to the Romans.13 He performed many sacrileges, such as melting down the sacred utensils used in Temple service, and defiled the Temple.

In short, this John established himself in the Temple, the one standing when Paul wrote, and put himself above Rome and above God, thereby taking the place of God in the Temple. All this happened, right then and there, and exactly as Paul had said the "man of sin" would do.

After the coming of the Lord and the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in A.D. 70, John of Gischala was "condemned to perpetual imprisonment" by the Roman authorities. Thus was fulfilled Paul's prophetic and symbolic language that this man would be destroyed by "the spirit of his Jesus mouth and brightness of his [parousia] coming" (see Isa. 11:4; 30:27-33; Hos. 6:5; also Da. 7:8, 19-28).

Verses 11-12. "For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but delighted In wickedness."

Josephus records that the Roman General Titus had no intention of destroying the Temple. The Romans wanted to preserve it as a trophy and monument of their conquest. Even Josephus personally pleaded with John of Gischala to surrender. But such a "madness" swept through him and his Jewish followers that they taunted the powers of Rome and refused to listen. This man, John, through the power of Satan and the delusion sent by God upon the Jewish people, forced the Roman armies to act. Instead of accepting Jesus as Messiah, King, and Deliverer, the unbelieving Jews placed their hopes in this false messiah a man of deceit and wickedness. They looked to the "man of sin" to lead them to victory and independence. The priesthood, which stood in their way, had been removed. And by August or September of A.D. 70, Paul's entire "man of sin" prophecy of 2nd Thessalonians 2:1-12 was fulfilled. The city and the Temple were burned and destroyed. The covenant nation of Israel and biblical Judaism were forever destroyed.

Only within this first century context does the Apostle Paul's "man of sin prophecy make sense and have its greatest significance. No justification exists for separating Paul's words from either the Temple standing at the time of his writing or the end of the Jewish age. John of Gischala, the son of Levi, was a contemporary of Paul. He was Paul's "man of sin." The eyewitness account of Josephus, a Jewish-Roman historian, truthfully and impartially documents his treachery and his critical role in
Jerusalem's demise. No one else in history-Gains Caesar, Nero, Titus, or Domitian comes as close to fulfilling this prophecy as this most influential and deceiving Zealot leader John of Gischala took over the forces of iniquity He stood in the Temple itself and exalted himself above all that is called God. He put himself above both God and Caesar. He regarded neither the laws of God nor those of man. He therefore "set himself up" in the Temple, taking the place of God.

Judas betrayed Jesus. John of Gischala betrayed the Jews, fulfilling Paul's "man of sin" prophecy to a tee.

In dramatic paralleled fashion, Scripture gives this "man of sin" John of Gischala, the son of Levi- the name of" the one doomed to destruction" or "the son of perdition," the same name given to another infamous betrayer, Judas Iscariot (compare Jn. 17:12 with 2Th. 2:3 KJV). Both appeared in the same "last days" time frame of the Old Covenant age. Judas betrayed Jesus. John of Gischala betrayed the Jews, fulfilling Paul's "man of sin" prophecy to a tee.

He was that 1st-century man who had to be revealed before the day of Christ in A.D. 70, and who was destroyed when it came. No future "man of sin" need come and fulfill this prophecy; it has already been fulfilled.

What About Paul's Man of Sin? by John Noe @ PreteristArchive.com - The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterism and Preterist Eschatology

Rev20 said:

Great article!


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Except there's a fundamental problem. Paul always taught the church was the temple of God...therefore he can't be referring to the Jerusalem temple.

The man of sin is Nero in my book. It was Nero that tried to with stand the church, executed Peter and Paul, and killed countless Christians.

MOD HAT ON

A clean up has been done in this thread. Please note that per the Statement of Purpose sticky for this forum that FULL Preterism is not allowed to be promoted here.

MOD HAT OFF

ebedmelech said:

Except there's a fundamental problem. Paul always taught the church was the temple of God...therefore he can't be referring to the Jerusalem temple.

The man of sin is Nero in my book. It was Nero that tried to with stand the church, executed Peter and Paul, and killed countless Christians.

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I don't believe Paul's statement had anything to do with the location of the temple, but rather the mindset of the so-called "Man of Sin," who thought he was God!

I have considered both Nero and John of Gischala as the Man of Sin; and I lean toward John. Nero, on the other hand, is a dead-ringer for the beast of the Revelation who made war with the saints for 42 months.

For the record, I do not believe there is any concrete evidence that Peter ever stepped foot inside Rome.


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Rev20 said:

I don't believe Paul's statement had anything to do with the location of the temple, but rather the mindset of the so-called "Man of Sin," who thought he was God!

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Right, because the temple is the church. The "man of sin" thinks he's god because of emperor worship.

Rev20 said:

I have considered both Nero and John of Gischala as the Man of Sin; and I lean toward John. Nero, on the other hand, is a dead-ringer for the beast of the Revelation who made war with the saints for 42 months.

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For the same reason I stated above, I don't think John Gischala was the "man of sin"...because the temple of God is no longer a building, it's the church.

Rev20 said:

For the record, I do not believe there is any concrete evidence that Peter ever stepped foot inside Rome.


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I don't think for Peter to have been executed in Rome requires evidence that he went there. I believe he was taken there in chains based on what Jesus said to him in John 21:18, 19:
18 Truly, truly, I say to you, when you were younger, you used to gird yourself and walk wherever you wished; but when you grow old, you will stretch out your hands and someone else will gird you, and bring you where you do not wish to go.”
19 Now this He said, signifying by what kind of death he would glorify God. And when He had spoken this, He *said to him, “Follow Me!”

I think Peter was taken to Rome under arrest and executed. Tradition has Peter executed in Rome also... it's not critical if he wasn't though. peter tells us the Lord showed him he was about to die.

ebedmelech said:

Right, because the temple is the church. The "man of sin" thinks he's god because of emperor worship.

For the same reason I stated above, I don't think John Gischala was the "man of sin"...because the temple of God is no longer a building, it's the church.

I don't think for Peter to have been executed in Rome requires evidence that he went there. I believe he was taken there in chains based on what Jesus said to him in John 21:18, 19:
18 Truly, truly, I say to you, when you were younger, you used to gird yourself and walk wherever you wished; but when you grow old, you will stretch out your hands and someone else will gird you, and bring you where you do not wish to go.”
19 Now this He said, signifying by what kind of death he would glorify God. And when He had spoken this, He *said to him, “Follow Me!”

I think Peter was taken to Rome under arrest and executed. Tradition has Peter executed in Rome also... it's not critical if he wasn't though. peter tells us the Lord showed him he was about to die.

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If you are interested in a good reference that explains why Peter was never at Rome, try this:

Peter the Apostle never at Rome, shewn to be an historical fact - rev. John Henry Brown - Google Books


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Rev20 said:

If you are interested in a good reference that explains why Peter was never at Rome, try this:

Peter the Apostle never at Rome, shewn to be an historical fact - rev. John Henry Brown - Google Books


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I'll give it a read. Understand my assertion is not that Peter was in Rome for no other reason than to be executed. I don't think anyone can be absolutely certain about this.

Protestants reject the idea of Peter ever being in Rome because of the RCC tradition of Peter was the first Pope.

ebedmelech said:

I'll give it a read. Understand my assertion is not that Peter was in Rome for no other reason than to be executed. I don't think anyone can be absolutely certain about this.

Protestants reject the idea of Peter ever being in Rome because of the RCC tradition of Peter was the first Pope.

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There is more to it than his adoption by the RCC. There is fairly convincing evidence that he was never in Rome, to be executed, or otherwise. There are a many good books on the subject, with summaries like this:

"There is not the least sign in antiquity of the alleged fact, nor, even of there having been a tradition to that effect." [Thomas Collins Simon, 'The Mission and Martyrdom of St. Peter,' Seeleys, 1852, Title Page]


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Rev20 said:

There is more to it than his adoption by the RCC. There is fairly convincing evidence that he was never in Rome, to be executed, or otherwise. There are a many good books on the subject, with summaries like this:

"There is not the least sign in antiquity of the alleged fact, nor, even of there having been a tradition to that effect." [Thomas Collins Simon, 'The Mission and Martyrdom of St. Peter,' Seeleys, 1852, Title Page]


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There's a difference though. The Lord told Peter this at John 21:18:
18 Truly, truly, I say to you, when you were younger, you used to gird yourself and walk wherever you wished; but when you grow old, you will stretch out your hands and someone else will gird you, and bring you where you do not wish to go.”

Then you have Peter saying this in 2 Peter 1:13
13 I consider it right, as long as I am in this earthly dwelling, to stir you up by way of reminder,
14 knowing that the laying aside of my earthly dwelling is imminent, as also our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me.

Peter affirms what the Lord said of him...yet NOTHING exist to say that Peter never appeared in Rome.

Since the works that do attest to Peters death in Rome are extra-biblical I don't take a firm stand on it.

ebedmelech said:

There's a difference though. The Lord told Peter this at John 21:18:
18 Truly, truly, I say to you, when you were younger, you used to gird yourself and walk wherever you wished; but when you grow old, you will stretch out your hands and someone else will gird you, and bring you where you do not wish to go.”

Then you have Peter saying this in 2 Peter 1:13
13 I consider it right, as long as I am in this earthly dwelling, to stir you up by way of reminder,
14 knowing that the laying aside of my earthly dwelling is imminent, as also our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me.

Peter affirms what the Lord said of him...yet NOTHING exist to say that Peter never appeared in Rome.

Since the works that do attest to Peters death in Rome are extra-biblical I don't take a firm stand on it.

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I just wanted to contribute to this from John chapter 21 that Jesus also suggested the Apostle John would survive to witness the cloud judgment of Jesus in A.D. 70 Jerusalem when Judea's civil and religious governments fell affectively ending the Jewish age forever.

Another fact of great note, the Gospel of John does not feature the Olivet Discourse but rather John gave us the Book of Revelation instead.

I know this has nothing to do with the discussion at hand but wanted to contribute my 0.02 cents.

random person said:

I just wanted to contribute to this from John chapter 21 that Jesus also suggested the Apostle John would survive to witness the cloud judgment of Jesus in A.D. 70 Jerusalem when Judea's civil and religious governments fell affectively ending the Jewish age forever.

Another fact of great note, the Gospel of John does not feature the Olivet Discourse but rather John gave us the Book of Revelation instead.

I know this has nothing to do with the discussion at hand but wanted to contribute my 0.02 cents.

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I personally believe that John was one of those elect that Christ sent his angels to gather. As for the claims of Polycarp, and/or Irenaeus, I believe the "John" that Polycarp knew was an imposter. We were warned about false apostles:


One of the churches in Asia had already had to deal with some by the time John wrote the Revelation:


In other words, when Paul wrote this,


Paul was, knowingly or unknowingly, writing about John when he used the word "we." It also appears that Paul expected to still be alive at the first resurrection, at least when he wrote Thessalonians. He almost made it.

1 THESSALONIANS 4: 17​

“Then we which are alive and remain shall be ‘caught’ (harpazo- no “up” “away” etc, indicated in the syntax of the text nor in the Greek word itself), together with them in the clouds (a cloud coming reference to divinity appearing- i.e. Jesus is divine. See Dr. Randall Otto’s work, “Coming in the Clouds”), to meet the Lord (‘meet’ is “apantesis’, Moulton and Milligan in their Greek Grammar, vol. 1, pg. 14, say, “It seems that the special idea of the word was the official welcome of a newly arrived dignitary.”), in the air, and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” Critical to an understanding of the text at hand is the word “air” from the Paul’s use of the Greek, AER. (Pronounced, “ear.”)

Strong’s Greek Dictionary, entry 109, defines it as:

From “aemi”, to breath unconsciously, to respire. By analogy, to blow.

(1) The air, particularly the lower and denser air as distinguished from the higher and rarer air.

(2) The atmospheric region.

Please note Strong’s root definition followed by the primary meaning of the word that Paul uses in 1 Thess. 4: 17. It is in reference to the “place” of respiration. The idea of the exchange of oxygen within ones immediate sphere, is what is the associative understanding. Paul is not saying that we meet the Lord in the harpazo, in our lungs! Understand what Paul is driving at. He is speaking of a spiritual meeting with the Lord, “within” ourselves. Within our spirits. Why did he use this particular form of explanation here? So that the Thessalonians, who could not conceive of the nature of the harpazo at Christ’s Parousia in the least (and we don’t do a very good job of it either), would begin to grasp that the meeting with the Lord was to be a personal meeting “within” the believer. Each believer was to have his or her own meeting with the Lord. If Paul had meant to communicate that this meeting was of a physical nature relative to joining the Lord in a place high above the planet surface, which Strong refers to as the place of “rarer” air (thinner air, high above the planet), then he would in all likelihood have used the Greek word “ouranos”. This is the primary word for the sky high above. The place of rarer air. There would have been no misunderstanding whatsoever if he had used ouranos. “Ouranos”: “To lift, to heave.”- Vines, Pg. 548. Paul chooses the more spiritually descriptive word AER, in order to communicate the primary defined meaning that Strong actually gives us. Christ would meet the believer within. It is an analogous to ones spirit that is within their body.

John Noe (a colleague of Mr. Stevens) sees this in his work, “Your Resurrection Body and Life”. On Pg. 52 he says, “For believers alive today, this gathering is still relevant. It takes place in the spirit realm, ‘in the air’ inside you (Strong’s # 109-author),that is, your spirit. Rapturists, as we outlined in chapter one, have failed to differentiate this AER ‘air’ inside you from the ‘ouranos’ air up in the sky. Consequently, they have also failed to apply a spiritual sense to Paul’s symbolic language. They insist this is a vanishing act by living Christians into outer space. How absurd! This ‘air’ is the heavenly realm of the spirit. And we are spirits.”

Paul’s use of the Greek words “harpazo” and “aer” in 1 Thess. 4: 17, clearly then places the traditional idea of physical bodies rising off of the planet surface and into the heaven above, into the arena of the unlikely, if not the impossible. Had Paul meant to clearly communicate that believers would rise physically off the planet surface and into the sky above the planet, he would have used the Greek word “ouranos” which has no argument within it whatsoever as to it’s “the-sky-above”, meaning.

What about the NT use of the Greek word AER that we have been alluding to?

The Greek word AER is used seven times in the NT.

(1) Acts 22: 23, “And as they cried out, and cast off their clothes, and threw dust into the AER…”

Ever tried to throw dust into the air? Try it and see how high up you can get it. Not very high I assure you, (especially if there is a breeze). This is the point for Luke using the word AER here in Acts 22: 23 as opposed to “ouranos.” The Jews could only get it as high as their immediate sphere. Perhaps a few feet at best. It would have been within the space that contained the air that they themselves were breathing.

(2) 1 Cor. 9: 26, Paul says, “…so fight I not as one who beats the AER.” Here, he uses a boxer’s terminology for comparing the discipline of athletics with the discipline of the Gospel work of preaching. How far do you think the boxer could swing at the air? No further than the length of his arms, right? He boxed within his immediate sphere. Why did Paul not use the word “ouranos” to describe the actions of a boxers training? Simply because it would have been ridiculous to do so. Neither the boxer nor the participant in the harpazo would reach into nor elevate off into the heavens above the planet. There is a specific reason as to why Paul used AER to describe the nature of the harpazo event.

(3) 1 Cor. 14: 9, As Paul instructs the Corinthians in true and false tongues, he teaches them that without speaking words in a language that everyone could understand, they would merely be “speaking into the AER.” Paul did not want the Corinthians to think that their words would be heard high above the city, up into the upper atmosphere. But rather, that those within their immediate sphere would be able to hear. Those who shared the same “aer”. That which was a part of their respiration (Strong’s #109). It was something to be experienced within their immediate sphere.

(4) Eph. 2: 2 Speaks of Satan being the “Prince and Power of the AER.” His realm was the arena of the spiritual, not the physical. He related to people within the sphere of their spirit, and not in the physical heavens above. His power was over the unregenerate mans life, not the molecules within the created carbon based system. His battle was over the lives of men and not over upper ether “real estate.” After Paul says that Satan was the Prince of the AER, he speaks that he (Satan) was the spirit, “that now works in the children of disobedience.” Again, the arena of Satan’s power was over the lives of men in an inner sense.

(4) 1 Thess. 4: 17. (Already covered).

(6-7) Both Rev. 9: 2, and 16: 17 speak in highly symbolic terms concerning the fact that in Johns vision (which is highly apocalyptic in nature and should only be pressed for literalism when the context demands it,) he says he sees the AER darkened and the angel pouring out his vial into the AER… Was the angel “really” pouring out a literal “bowl” containing something physical into the sky above? Of course not. As is typical with the use of the word AER, it is a reference to the realm of the spirit, as Noe points out, that is the arena of the angel’s dealings.


Dr. Kelly Nelson Birks: A Response to 'Silence Demands a Rapture' (2002) PreteristArchive.com. The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterist Eschatology

I'm following you Random, however why is it you don't go to the quintessential passage on this...1 Corinthians 15, where Paul goes into great detail? 1 Thessalonians 4 is a brief on the resurrection. The concern is for those who are asleep (dead) in Christ.

I think 1 Corinthians 15 HEAVILY bears on this.

ebedmelech said:

I'm following you Random, however why is it you don't go to the quintessential passage on this...1 Corinthians 15, where Paul goes into great detail? 1 Thessalonians 4 is a brief on the resurrection. The concern is for those who are asleep (dead) in Christ.

I think 1 Corinthians 15 HEAVILY bears on this.

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So true, but I posted this in response to the false doctrine of the Rapture.

Tools for preterists.

Rapture believers think Paul wrote “ouranos” but Paul used “aer” instead.

I.G. Rapturists believe Paul wrote:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the ouranos: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Strong's Greek: 3772. ??????? (ouranos) -- heaven

But what Paul actually wrote:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the aer: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Strong's Greek: 109. ??? (aér) -- air

There is a massive difference. The former truly means the heavens high above, the starry heavens, the visible heavens, etc.

But the latter means the lower air we breathe, the air in our lungs, it means all air in our immediate proximity. See the difficulty with the Rapture now?

The Greek word "aer" is used only 7 times in the whole New Testament.

And as they cried out, and cast off their clothes, and threw dust into the aer, - Acts 22:23

I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the aer: - 1 Corinthians 9:26

So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the aer. 1 Corinthians 14:9

How to Share the Preterist view of Eschatology Part 1​

What verse are we studying today in Colossians? If we were studying Colossians, we would be on 3:18, which basically says, "Wives, submit." Since so many people are on vacation this week, I thought I'd wait until next week to cover that verse.

This morning we want to talk about "How to share the Preterist view." It's not the easiest or smartest thing to just say to someone: "I believer that Jesus returned." Although I did that very thing not long ago. So how do you introduce this subject? How can we introduce this without causing people to tear their clothes and throw dust into the air? I have come up with a handout that I use to share Preterism, and I thought I'd share it with you this morning.

But before I share with you how to share Preterism, a question we should first answer is: Why share Preterism? People always says to me, "Why is this important? What does it matter if He has returned or not?" My answer is always the same, "Does truth matter? If it doesn't, than we don't need to study the Bible at all. But if truth does matter, then Preterism matters.

For a less simplistic answer, let me give you several reasons why Preterism is important: why your view of eschatology matters.

1. Eschatology is a major theological issue in the Scriptures. R.C. Sproul says that two thirds of the New Testament is either directly or indirectly eschatological. Other experts say that 25 to 30 percent of the whole bible is eschatological.

2. Salvation is tied to eschatology. How much salvation you currently have depends on your eschatological view. If you were to die right now, where would you go? That depends on your eschatology. No one goes to heaven prior to the second coming. Look at what Jesus said:


John 3:13 (NASB) "And no one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven, even the Son of Man.

So, has this changed? If so when?


John 13:33 (NASB) "Little children, I am with you a little while longer. You shall seek Me; and as I said to the Jews, I now say to you also, 'Where I am going, you cannot come.'


John 13:36 (NASB) Simon Peter said^ to Him, "Lord, where are You going?" Jesus answered, "Where I go, you cannot follow Me now; but you shall follow later."


John 14:2-3 (NASB) "In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

If Jesus has not yet returned to receive His disciples to Himself, then John 3:13 is still in effect. Look also at:


1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (NASB) For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord.

If the dead have not yet been resurrected, which happens at the Second Coming, then no one is yet in heaven. But where do most Christians believe that they go at death? Heaven! Have you ever been to a Christian funeral?

Heaven was not opened until the Second Coming, because salvation was not complete until the return of Christ:


Hebrews 9:28 (NASB) so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

This is the only place in the New Testament where the return of Christ is called a Second Coming. His appearing is said to be "for salvation."

Peter states that their salvation was not yet complete:


1 Peter 1:5 (NKJV) who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Salvation was ready to be revealed, when? In the last time, which would happen at the return of Christ. If Christ has not returned, salvation is incomplete and no one has yet gone to heaven.

3. Israel! What do you do with the modern day nation of Israel? Is God's prophetic calender tied to the modern day nation of Israel? No! God is through with Israel.

Let's look at a parable:


Matthew 22:1-3 (NKJV) And Jesus answered and spoke to them again by parables and said: 2 "The kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who arranged a marriage for his son, 3 "and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding; and they were not willing to come.

The king is God, the son is Christ, and those invited are the nation Israel:


Matthew 22:4-7 (NKJV) "Again, he sent out other servants, saying, 'Tell those who are invited, "See, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and fatted cattle are killed, and all things are ready. Come to the wedding."' 5 "But they made light of it and went their ways, one to his own farm, another to his business. 6 "And the rest seized his servants, treated them spitefully, and killed them. 7 "But when the king heard about it, he was furious. And he sent out his armies, destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

What is verse seven speaking of? Yes, it very clearly is a prediction of the A.D. 70 judgement of Jerusalem.


Matthew 22:8-10 (NKJV) "Then he said to his servants, 'The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. 9 'Therefore go into the highways, and as many as you find, invite to the wedding.' 10 "So those servants went out into the highways and gathered together all whom they found, both bad and good. And the wedding hall was filled with guests.

Israel lost its privilege, and all nations were invited to come to the wedding celebration of the Lamb. This destruction of the nation, because of their rejection of Christ, was prophesied from the beginning of John the Baptist's ministry.


Matthew 3:9-10 (NKJV) "and do not think to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. 10 "And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

Jesus came in judgement on the nation Israel in A.D. 70; ending forever the nation, its physical temple and sacrifices. So, God is through with Israel, but most Christians think that the Jews are God's special people and must be protected. A faulty eschatology is affecting our foreign policy.

4. It affects your world view. If we are living in the last days, and this world is about to end any moment why work for social change? We are not living in the last days. We live in the kingdom of God and we are to be affecting the world in which we live by the power of God. The Kingdom of God has no end, it is an eternal kingdom. As a young Christian I never really planned for the future because I believed the Lord would return at any moment, so why bother with the future?

So, I believe that eschatology matters. And since it matters, we need to be looking for opportunities to share the preterist view, and we need to have a plan to share it. I like to wear the hat that Bill Gann gave me when I'm around believers of the futuristic persuasion, hoping they'll ask about it and I can share with them what Preterism is. It says, "Preterism...it's about time",

Here is my approach to sharing the preterist view. I like to give futurists a handout with all the scriptures on it so they can see them for themselves. The following is included in this handout.

As we read the Bible, we must keep in mind the hermeneuticial principle of audience relevance, which seeks to discover what the original audience understood a passage to mean. The Bible is written "for" us, but it is not written "to" us. We must seek to understand what Scripture meant to its original audience, then we can apply it to ourselves. As you read the following scriptures, ask yourself these questions: Who is this written to? When was it written? When did they expect Christ to return?

Jesus said to His disciples:


Matthew 10:23 (NKJV) "When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.


Matthew 16:27-28 (NKJV) "For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. 28 "Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."


Matthew 24:34 (NKJV) "Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.

Jesus said to Peter:


John 21:21-22 (NKJV) Peter, seeing him, said to Jesus, "But Lord, what about this man (John)?" 22 Jesus said to him, "If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you? You follow Me."

Paul said to the Roman Christians:


Romans 13:11-12 (NKJV) And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed. 12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand. Therefore let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light.


Romans 16:20 (NKJV) And the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

Paul said to the Corinthian Christians:


1 Corinthians 1:7-8 (NKJV) so that you come short in no gift, eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, 8 who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.


1 Corinthians 7:29-31 (NKJV) But this I say, brethren, the time is short, so that from now on even those who have wives should be as though they had none, 30 those who weep as though they did not weep, those who rejoice as though they did not rejoice, those who buy as though they did not possess, 31 and those who use this world as not misusing it. For the form of this world is passing away.


1 Corinthians 10:11 (NKJV) Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.


1 Corinthians 15:51-52 (NKJV) Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed; 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Paul said to the Philippian Christians:


Philippians 1:6 (NKJV) being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;


Philippians 4:5 (NKJV) Let your gentleness be known to all men. The Lord is at hand.

Paul said to the Thessalonian Christians:


1 Thessalonians 4:15 (NKJV) For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.


1 Thessalonians 5:23 (NKJV) Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul said to Timothy:


1 Timothy 6:14 (NKJV) that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ's appearing,

Paul said to Titus:


Titus 2:12-13 (NKJV) teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

The writer of Hebrews said to the Hebrew Christians:


Hebrews 10:37 (NKJV) "For yet a little while, And He who is coming will come and will not tarry.


James 5:7-9 (NKJV) Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain. 8 You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand. 9 Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door!

Peter wrote to Christians:


1 Peter 1:13 (NKJV) Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;


1 Peter 4:7 (NKJV) But the end of all things is at hand; therefore be serious and watchful in your prayers.

John wrote to the seven Churches in Asia Minor:


Revelation 1:1 (NKJV) The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants; things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John,


Revelation 1:3 (NKJV) Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.

Jesus said to the first century church of Thyatira:


Revelation 2:25 (NKJV) "But hold fast what you have till I come.

Jesus said to the first century church of Philadelphia:


Revelation 3:11 (NKJV) "Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown.


Revelation 22:6-7 (NKJV) Then he said to me, "These words are faithful and true." And the Lord God of the holy prophets sent His angel to show His servants the things which must shortly take place. 7 "Behold, I am coming quickly! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book."


Revelation 22:10 (NKJV) And he said to me, "Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand.


Revelation 22:12 (NKJV) "And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work.


Revelation 22:20 (NKJV) He who testifies to these things says, "Surely I am coming quickly." Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus!

How to Share the Preterist view of Eschatology Part 2​

Keep in mind audience relevance, which seeks to discover what the original audience understood a passage to mean. He said He was coming soon, He said His coming was "at hand." He said He was coming in the life time of those He was speaking to. He said He was coming in "their generation." You cannot read the New Testament without seeing the imminent expectation that they had for the return of Christ. This has caused problems for many.

The self-proclaimed atheist, Bertrand Russell, made use of this obvious conclusion in his work, Why I Am Not A Christian : "I am concerned with Christ as He appears in the Gospel narrative as it stands, and there one does find some things that do not seem very wise. For one thing, He certainly thought that His Second Coming would occur in clouds of glory before the death of all the people who were living at that time. There are a great many texts that prove it.... That was the belief of His early followers, and it was the basis of a good deal of His moral teaching" (page 16).



Russell used the New Testament's "imminent" texts as "proof" that Jesus could not be the Son of God. And modern Christianity, in general, has not been able to answer adequately such objections from atheists and non-Christians. Believers today must address directly the vast misunderstanding that exists within the realm of Christianity regarding Christ's eschatological teachings.


Matthew 24:34 (NKJV) "Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.

Jesus, here, very plainly and very clearly, tells His disciples that ALL of the things He had mentioned would come to pass in THEIR GENERATION. If you study the context, you will see that this includes the gospel being preached in all the world, the abomination of desolation, the great tribulation, and the Second Coming of Christ. This is so clear that it greatly troubles those who hold to a futuristic eschatology. Look at what C.S. Lewis said about Matthew 24:34:

The apocalyptic beliefs of the first Christians have been proved to be false. It is clear from the New Testament that they all expected the Second Coming in their own lifetime. And, worse still, they had a reason, and one which you will find very embarrassing. Their Master had told them so. He shared, and indeed created, their delusion. He said in so many words, "This generation shall not pass till all these things be done." And He was wrong. He clearly knew no more about the end of the world than anyone else. This is certainly the most embarrassing verse in the Bible. (Essay "The World's Last Night" (1960), found in The Essential C.S. Lewis, p. 385)

Is Lewis right? Was Jesus wrong? I can't accept that, can you?Fortunately, Christ did keep His promise to come within the first-century generation. Christ's Second Coming occurred spiritually -- the way He intended it -- at the A.D. 70 destruction of Jerusalem. This highly verified historical event signified that sin finally had been atoned forever and that all Christians, from generation to generation, could live eternally -- on earth and in heaven -- without separation from God.

Now, I'm sure that you're thinking: If the Lord did come back in 70 AD, how did we miss it for all these years? How could He have come back and we not have known it? The problem here is one of preconceived ideas. It is because of the paradigms that we have developed. We think that the Second Coming is an earth burning, heaven melting, globe changing event; so we assume it could not have already happened.

I submit to you that either Scripture is wrong about the time of the Second Coming and thus not inerrant, or our paradigms are wrong about the nature of the Second Coming. Which one of those are you more comfortable with; an incorrect paradigm or an uninspired Scripture? I think I can prove that our understanding of the "nature" of the Second Coming is wrong.


2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 (NKJV) Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.

How is it that the Thessalonians thought that the Second Coming had already happened? If they viewed the nature of these things as literal, how on earth could they have thought that they already happened? If their concept of the Second Coming was an earth burning; heaven melting; globe changing event, how could they have thought it had already happened? If Paul was teaching the Second Coming as an earth burning; heaven melting; globe changing event, all he would have had to say to the Thessalonians is, "Hello, look out your windows, the earth is not on fire, the sky is still blue." Paul never corrects their idea of the nature of the Second Coming, he simply says it has not happened yet. They must have viewed the nature of the Second Coming differently than we do.

Nowhere do the Scriptures teach that the physical creation will be destroyed. Notice what God said after the flood of Noah's day:


Genesis 8:21 (NKJV) And the LORD smelled a soothing aroma. Then the LORD said in His heart, "I will never again curse the ground for man's sake, although the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done.

Now, folks will say that the Lord destroyed the earth by water one time, and He'll destroy it by fire the next time. Is God's promise here to just change His method of destroying everything? Is there comfort in being destroyed by fire instead of water? Or is He promising not to destroy the earth again?


Psalms 148:4-6 (NKJV) Praise Him, you heavens of heavens, And you waters above the heavens! 5 Let them praise the name of the LORD, For He commanded and they were created. 6 He also established them forever and ever; He made a decree which shall not pass away.

What decree did God make concerning the establishment of the heaven and the earth that will never pass away? Genesis 8:21! God said that He would never again destroy every living thing. God can be trusted, He keeps his word. He said He was coming soon, and He did.

Until January, 1997, I had never heard of the preterist (meaning past in fulfillment) view of eschatology, so, I obviously could not believe what I didn't know. When a friend first shared it with me, I thought he was MAD. As I began to study this view, I saw that though it went against what the majority of the Church was teaching, it was what the Bible was teaching. I had to make a choice between tradition and the Scripture-- the choice was easy. If this view is new to you, I would ask that you would openly and honestly look at what it is saying. Almost every book in the New Testament talks of a "soon" return of Jesus Christ, and it is very hard to make 2,000 years "soon," by any hermeneutic. The major issue to me in all of this is the Inspiration of Scripture. Don't let tradition rob you of the precious truths which our Lord taught. I challenge you to be a Berean and daily search the Scripture to see if these things are so.

This message preached by David B. Curtis on July 11, 2004. Tape #298b.

How to Share the Preterist view of Eschatology on The Biblical Preterist Archive  http://www.biblicalpreteristarchive.com

Originally Posted by ebedmelech

I'm following you Random, however why is it you don't go to the quintessential passage on this...1 Corinthians 15, where Paul goes into great detail? 1 Thessalonians 4 is a brief on the resurrection. The concern is for those who are asleep (dead) in Christ.

I think 1 Corinthians 15 HEAVILY bears on this.
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So true, but I posted this in response to the false doctrine of the Rapture.

Tools for preterists.

Rapture believers think Paul wrote “ouranos” but Paul used “aer” instead.

I.G. Rapturists believe Paul wrote:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the ouranos: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Strong's Greek: 3772. ??????? (ouranos) -- heaven

But what Paul actually wrote:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the aer: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Strong's Greek: 109. ??? (aér) -- air

There is a massive difference. The former truly means the heavens high above, the starry heavens, the visible heavens, etc.

But the latter means the lower air we breathe, the air in our lungs, it means all air in our immediate proximity. See the difficulty with the Rapture now?

The Greek word "aer" is used only 7 times in the whole New Testament.

And as they cried out, and cast off their clothes, and threw dust into the aer, - Acts 22:23

I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the aer: - 1 Corinthians 9:26

So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the aer. 1 Corinthians 14:9

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Reve 16:17 also shows the 7th Messenger pouring out the last bowl/vial of wrath into the "air" during the DoJ in ad70....IMHO

Ephesians 2:2
in which when ye walk in accord to the age of world, this, in accord to the chief/ruler of the authority of the air/aeroV <109>, of the spirit the now in-working in the sons of the stubborn

Reve 16:17
and the seventh Messenger pours out the bowl/vial of him into the air/aera <109> and came out Voice great from the Sanctuary of-the heaven from the throne saying "it has become!"/gegonen <1096> (5754). [Reve 21:6]

109. aer ah-ayr' from aemi (to breathe unconsciously, i.e. respire; by analogy, to blow); "air" (as naturally circumambient):--air. Compare 5594.



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LittleLambofJesus said:

Reve 16:17 also shows the 7th Messenger pouring out the last bowl/vial of wrath into the "air" during the DoJ in ad70....IMHO

Ephesians 2:2
in which when ye walk in accord to the age of world, this, in accord to the chief/ruler of the authority of the air/aeroV <109>, of the spirit the now in-working in the sons of the stubborn

Reve 16:17
and the seventh Messenger pours out the bowl/vial of him into the air/aera <109> and came out Voice great from the Sanctuary of-the heaven from the throne saying "it has become!"/gegonen <1096> (5754). [Reve 21:6]

109. aer ah-ayr' from aemi (to breathe unconsciously, i.e. respire; by analogy, to blow); "air" (as naturally circumambient):--air. Compare 5594.



.

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I take the author's view of the word "aer" it is both our immediate atmosphere, biosphere, and the spiritual realm round about us, principalities and powers, etc.

Whileas, the word "ouranos" is the heavens far above, space, and spiritual heaven where Christians go when we die.

Here is the Book in the Bible that should be used to clear up Revelation chapter 14!!! This 5 chapter Book explains why "One like the Son of Man" is shown sitting on a cloud with a sickle in His Hand reaping at the 7th Trumpet. It also explains why an angel is reaping at the same time "One like Jesus" reaps. This Book also explains which city in the Middle East is the Great Wine-press of God mentioned in Revelation 14. This Book also explains that the "Day of His Fierce Anger" lasts for 45 days not 1 day like I have been saying all along. Thank you Father for correcting me on that. The 5 chapter Book that clears up Revelation 14 is: ***LAMENTATIONS***. This book is found in the Old Testament between Jeremiah and Ezekiel. This Book is bad news for Israel because we get a better understanding of just how upset Father is with Israel for ignoring Him and torturing His Son Jesus. Chapter 14 of Revelation is the Great Wheat Harvest that follows the 7th Trumpet Blast. The Wheat and the Tares have been growing together for hundreds of years now. Revelation 14 is specifically concerned with the Wheat and Tares in Israel even though they can be found in every country on Earth. The Tares are the same types of Individuals in Israel that denied that Jesus was and is the Messiah back in those days. They are the majority of Israelis today. The Wheat knows their Shepherd and they are very few in number in Israel today. Only about 2 % of the population. Many of whom are Arab. But the good news for Israelis today is that Father is going to send them Moses & Elijah back to Jerusalem to preach for 3 1/2 years before the "Day of His Fierce Anger "against Israel. In addition to them, Father is also raising up now as we speak 144,000 messianic Jewish young men in Israel that are being taught that the Holy Bible is the complete Word of God. They will teach boldly during the same 3 1/2 years that Moses and Elijah begin their Witness of Jesus. I wouldn't be surprised if the Christian population within Israel jumps from its current state of 2% of the population to 12% of the population by the Time of the 7th Trumpet. The only reason I used 12% there is because of the parable of the “Sower and the Seed” (Matthew 13). (Only 1 of the 8 Seeds that are being cast end up on good ground. {4 seeds cast by Jesus & 4 seeds cast by Satan}. To recap the highlights of the last 7 years of this Age we have: Seals 1 - 4 being the first 3 1/2 years. This is a time of Tribulation for the whole Earth called the "Beginning of Sorrows". This is World War 3 with a worldwide Economic Implosion and a Demand for Oil like you wouldn't believe. Millions of People will die. At the midpoint we have the 10 Nation (Horn) alliance (Peace for Oil) already in place. By the midpoint of the 7 year period Christians will have gotten on everyone's nerves especially in Israel. The 5th Seal will be opened and Christians will be slaughtered everywhere to include Israel. This is followed by the Antichrist sneaking his way into the rebuilt Jewish Temple and declaring to the world via video that he has set up an image in the Jewish Holy of Holies and now is the true time for Jihad. You then have the 6th Seal Heavenly Signs beginning the "Day of the Lord" period. The main part of the Day of the Lord period is called the "Wrath of the Lamb" It lasts from the 7th Seal to the 6th Trumpet. Here Jesus (in heaven) is cracking the whip against Israel & the Middle Eastern nations for the killing of all the Christians. Israel will come under attack by the Antichrist and eventually (Russia by the 6th Trumpet). Picture the time that Jesus went into the Temple and found the way that Jews were treating it. Remember how mad He got and starting cracking the whip. During the first 6 Trumpet Judgments Moses, Elijah, and the 144,000 messianic young preachers will be begging the Christians to flee Israel especially Jerusalem. They will also be explaining to Israel why and by what methods they are being struck by Jesus and Father. Many Jews will convert. Israel remains under attack for 3 1/2 years before they finally break. When Russia joins in around the time of the 6th Trumpet it can't hold out much longer. How much help will America be by that point I do not know. At the blast of the 7th Trumpet, Israel's enemies break through their walls. In Revelation 14 & Lamentations Jesus is shown as "One like the Son of Man" sitting on a {{cloud}}. He is invisible here. This is not His second Coming with all His Glory. This is not the 7th Trumpet Rapture. At Jerusalem's fall Jesus and his Angels gather the souls of the Wheat and the Tares who are killed by the invading army that comes in like a "FLOOD". Jesus said in His Word in the Book of Daniel that from the time of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet (fall of Jerusalem) unto the Wedding Day (Jesus' Coming Visibly) is 45 days. The 7th Trumpet sounds 1,290 days after the Abomination of Desolation is set up in the Temple by the Antichrist. The wedding day (7th Bowl) (Fall of Babylon) is 1,335 days after the Abomination of Desolation. This 45 day period is the 7th Trumpet. It lasts that long. The 7th Trumpet period does not last 1 day. Therefore when some people say that Jesus will return at the 7th Trumpet they are in a sense correct. But, He returns on the last day of the 7th Trumpet period not the first day. This is what Jesus means by the patience of the Saints. (Lamentations 3:25 & Revelation 14:12). You have to realize that it will take 45 days for the Antichrist Army to get all Jews out of Jerusalem. The leaders of his army will decide who they will take back to their various nations as Slaves and who will be executed. Lamentations 1:18 says that the young men and young ladies will be the ones taken away as slaves. It may be that they are given a choice to take the Mark of the Beast and agree to spend the rest of their lives as slaves or die like every else. Revelation 14 says that the Jews will be lined up in a ditch an executed outside of the city of Jerusalem. There dead bodies will be stacked 5 bodies high (the height of horses bridles) in this ditch and this ditch will be as long as 1600 furlongs. This will make the rivers and streams blood red literally. The execution is called the Great Winepress. This will act like a threshing floor where the wheat will be separated from the Tares inside Israel. There are other wine-presses during these days but this is the Great Winepress of God. The entire 3 1/2 year period will be hell for Israel. Not only will they starve to death because they are totally besieged by Russia and the Muslim confederation, but Jesus and Father will be pouring out their wrath against them. Jesus for 6 trumpets and Father for the last 7th Trumpet. Lamentations 3:15 even tells us that the Plague of Wormwood (3rd Trumpet) mentioned in Revelation chapter 8 actually falls on Israel's waters. They are the focus of Father's Wrath up until Jesus returns in Person at the 7th Bowl (Day 1335). Then He remembers His Love for His People and takes 12 hours of that day starting at evening time (Isaiah 17:14) and by morning all of Israel's enemies are defeated. Jesus will reign from Jerusalem over the entire planet for 1,000 years. He will be very Jewish and demand that His people be brought back from all over the world. God Bless Brothers and Sisters

Belly Rumble, your post is simply too congested to read! At least use paragraphs to make sense of it.

I started reading it...and I just gave up.