Jesus died on the cross.

1Kepha 3:18 - Because even Messiah once suffered for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to Elohim, having been put to death indeed in flesh but made alive in the Spirit,

"ὅτι καὶ Χριστὸς ἅπαξ περὶ ἁμαρτιῶν ἔπαθεν, δίκαιος ὑπὲρ ἀδίκων, ἵνα ὑμᾶς προσαγάγῃ τῷ θεῷ, θανατωθεὶς μὲν σαρκὶ ζῳοποιηθεὶς δὲ πνεύματι" - ΠΕΤΡΟΥ Α΄ 3:18

If we're going to go retro, let's at least do it proper.

-CryptoLutheran

Clare73 said:

The persons of the Trinity are spirit.

The Holy Spirit proceeds from (to go out of from within) the Father and the Son (Jn 15:26).

The Son became a human body, whose spirit is the Holy Spirit, who is separate from his body, as our spirits are separate from our bodies.

His body died, his divine Spirit did not, just as our bodies die, but our spirits do not (Pr 12:28; Lk 8:55; Ro 2:7;
Heb 12:23).

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Wow. This is very disconcerting coming from someone who purports to teach biblical, orthodox doctrine in Soteriology and other places. :o

'The Son became a human body, whose spirit is the Holy Spirit'
True Tzaousios. Clare's post would not be the correct understanding of the three persons of God. All three are One, and indeed indwell in Christ, but the substance and or nature of God are not the same as the persons, who are unique in themselves, and are distinct individuals who can talk to each other.
= One God, three persons.

It is true that The Father Son and Holy Spirit can indwell each other, but don't confuse the persons. Maybe that is what you meant Clare73 by Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

And just to make this interesting, I would beg to differ with the following:

"That is the mystery..." (ViaCrucis)
There are about 7 mysteries Paul speaks of, all of them have been revealed. I never like the Catholic tradition of calling them 'mysteries' when the truth 'has been revealed' in Christ: Jesus is Lord / the way is open to the Gentiles / the Messiah would suffer and be raised, and Jesus is the Son of Man whom Daniel spoke of, no mystery: '... that is, the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints, to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory' Col 1:26 (To me it is just another example of how the Papacy likes to keep Gods Word a mystery, and keep the people in the dark)

"Jesus taught-and proved, what many teachers of His day disbelieved: that, once created, man lives forever, regardless of his eternal "whereabouts" (fhansen)
I don't know where you get that, Jesus wasn't arguing for the immortality of the soul, rather he was warning people that they would 'die'. And that only by believing in Him could they have eternal life. Platos Phaedo, Socrates writings, and Platos mysticism influenced the early writers such as Origen and Augustiine, but this was not what Jesus' contemporaries such as the Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes believed, because Scripture teaches that 'only the righteous would live' and have life: 'In the way of righteousness is life, And in its pathway there is no death.' (Proverbs 12:28) 'He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him" (John 3:36) 'that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life. "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent' (John 17:3) 'to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life, but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth there will be tribulation and distress' (Romans 2:8) 'Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him' (1 John 3:15)

"... and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied... so also in Christ all will be made alive... 'Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 51 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed... Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord' (1 Cor.15)
Jesus and the other bible writers have made it clear that it is by Faith we inherit Eternal life, not just because we were born.

zelosravioli said:

And just to make this interesting, I would beg to differ with the following:

"That is the mystery..." (ViaCrucis)
There are about 7 mysteries Paul speaks of, all of them have been revealed. I never like the Catholic tradition of calling them 'mysteries' when the truth 'has been revealed' in Christ: Jesus is Lord / the way is open to the Gentiles / the Messiah would suffer and be raised, and Jesus is the Son of Man whom Daniel spoke of, no mystery: '... that is, the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints, to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory' Col 1:26 (To me it is just another example of how the Papacy likes to keep Gods Word a mystery, and keep the people in the dark)

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This is because you fail to understand the traditional usage, which is based on the biblcal usage. A mystery, in Catholic use, is a supernatural, revealed, truth, something unattainable to know without divine revelation.

zelosravioli said:

I don't know where you get that, Jesus wasn't arguing for the immortality of the soul, rather he was warning people that at they would 'die'. And that only by believing in Him could they have eternal life. Platos Phaedo, Socrates writings, and Platos mysticism influenced the early writers such as Origen and Augustiine, but this was not what Jesus' contemporaries such as the Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes believed, because Scripture teaches that 'only the righteous would live' and have life: 'He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him" (John 3:36) 'to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life, but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth there will be tribulation and distress' (Romans 2:8)

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The unrighteous also continue to exist-but in hell-an "eternal death", so to speak. In any case existence is good in and of itself and all human beings that God brings into existence continue to exist eternally.

I would say that the idea of mystery as to the inexplicable idea of how God could not die, and yet God died, cannot be summed up as something that divides Catholics from Protestants. It is not random that a Lutheran is making the best case for this kind of mystery, for Lutherans especially were not in favor of the Catholic trend of Aquinas et al to reduce everything to a rational explanation.

elliott95 said:

I would say that the idea of mystery as to the inexplicable idea of how God could not die, and yet God died, cannot be summed up as something that divides Catholics from Protestants. It is not random that a Lutheran is making the best case for this kind of mystery, for Lutherans especially were not in favor of the Catholic trend of Aquinas et al to reduce everything to a rational explanation.

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This is because you fail to understand the traditional usage, which is based on the biblcal usage. A mystery, in Catholic use, is a supernatural, revealed, truth, something unattainable to know without divine revelation' (fhansen)
Biblcal usage? The biblical contexts reveal that these things were revealed (and I went to catechism).

It is a Catholic 'tradition' to speak of it that way. The biblical passages speak of 'mysteries' that have been revealed. And the details and foundations for the Gospel are all in scripture. Scripture has made it clear: God is eternal and does not die / God alone possesses Immortality / Jesus is the Life and the author of it / Jesus said He would raise Himself up / Jesus pre-existed the Incarnation and He can post incarnation, because He was before Abraham / Jesus has a spirit / just as humans have a spirit / just as our spirit goes to be with the Lord at death / yet our body lays dead / this should not be to difficult to understand. And it is only a tradition to talk as if it is a mystery, which is deceiving since all these premises are clear from scripture.

There are things that are difficult to grasp, and things scripture does not go into detail about, but these are things scripture has revealed. Even the mystery of the woman in Rev.17 is said to have been revealed. Lutherans adopted a lot of Catholic tradition, that is no mystery either. Christ died in the flesh, but was raised in the Spirit, because it was impossible for his Spirit to die: 'who has become such not on the basis of a law of physical requirement, but according to the power of an indestructible life' (Hebrews 7:16)

The Catholic church has a huge list of things they call Mysteries, they claim the whole life of Christ is a mystery! A believer does not believe 'mysteries' a believer knows the truth and it sets him or her free.

As has already been noted, the historical Christain--and biblical--usage of mystery (Greek musterion) is that of a revealed truth; a thing unknowable except that it has been made known to us by God.

That God became man is not something we could deduce by reason, we read in Matthew 16 that St. Peter's confession that Jesus is both the Christ and the Son of God was not an act of human reason, but a divine revelation.

Further we call the Sacraments mysteries, not because they are some sort of esoteric nonsense, but because the reality of the Sacraments cannot be deduced by reason. Left purely to human devices we should see only mere water and a person getting wet in the case of Baptism, and in the case of the Lord's Supper we see but only ordinary bread and wine. But these are mysteries, because as revealed to us this Baptism is not merely water or getting wet, there is in this the promised Word of God, that there is forgiveness of sin and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38), it is a union into and with Christ's death and resurrection (Romans 6:2-10), it is to be clothed with Christ Himself (Galatians 3:27). And, likewise, the Supper is not merely eating and drinking, it is the very body and blood of Christ Himself (1 Corinthians 10:16-17, Luke 22:17-20). They are therefore Mysteries, not on account that we don't know what they are, but on account that what they are is known to us only by the revealed word of God.

The union of the human and divine in the one person of Christ--the Incarnation--is a mystery because it is revealed to us and unknowable otherwise. And we confess that which cannot be grasped by reason. As St. Ignatius wrote, "The impassible became passible"; how can this be? Yet it is, and we can know it, receive it, confess it, and believe it.

It is therefore, indeed, a great mystery. It is not hidden from us, it is instead revealed to us.

-CryptoLutheran

As has been said, the Church uses the term in the same way the bible uses “mysterion”, as Paul uses it in Eph 3:4 & 6:19 and Col 1:26 & 4:3, for example. Sometimes the word is translated “secret” instead. She also uses it for concepts such as the Trinity, revealed but nonetheless completely unattainble to human reason alone. And, actually, the life of Christ is a mystery-beyond something we could ever predict or fully comprehend in this life, awe-inspiring; until the end of time people will be striving to fully grasp the light that entered the world 2000 years ago! But it would be ridiculous to assert that the CC doesn't want that light to shine brighter; she’s always proclaimed and taught the truth that gives man hope in a lost and dying world and sets him free: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

I know you are trying to defend the RCC tradition, and I know what they are attempting to say, but this interpretation is not the way Paul uses it because Paul says it has been ‘revealed’. It is not a mystery to the believer.
‘But it would be ridiculous to assert that the CC doesn't want that light to shine brighter; she’s always proclaimed and taught the truth that gives man hope in a lost and dying world and sets him free’ (fhansen)
The Catholic church teaches that ‘they’ are the priests and mediators to God. That is not truth. We are saved by grace unto works, and certainly do not need a priest or a church to save us, yet that is what the CC has taught for 15 centuries. And they have put Christians to death, and burned books for centuries.

Musterion: a mystery, secret, of which initiation is necessary; in the NT: the counsels of God, once hidden but now revealed in the Gospel or some fact thereof; the Christian revelation generally; particular truths or details of the Christian revelation’ (Strongs) Musterion: Mystery - is not something unknowable. Rather, it is what can only be known through revelation, i.e. because God reveals it. (Strong’s)

So we agree, it is unknown, until it is revealed. If you are in The Church it is because you know, and have believed Gods revelation. So why does the CC use the word mystery, and call the sacraments and the Gospel a mystery within their churches? If your in the Church, you are (should be) a believer. It is not biblical, for a believer, to call the Gospel a mystery.

It is though, a bit revealing! Maybe because for the leaders of the CC, the Gospel has not been revealed. Otherwise they would understand the Gospel. The Gospel has been revealed, perhaps the CC just does not understand it:
‘At that season Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou didst hide these things from the wise and understanding, and didst reveal them unto babes’ (Matt 11:25) And unto them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall in no wise understand; And seeing ye shall see, and shall in no wise perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, And their ears are dull of hearing, And their eyes they have closed; Lest haply they should perceive with their eyes, And hear with their ears, And understand with their heart, And should turn again, And I should heal them. But blessed are your eyes, for they see; and your ears, for they hear’ (Matt. 13:14-16)

The word mystery in Col.4 is in the context of what Paul was making known in his preaching ‘to those outside’. This is in the context of talking to the unbelievers, those outside the Church. The Church didn’t put Paul in prison. But it is interesting that the RCC put people in prison, burned them. And burned bibles and books, and kept the people in the dark, and kept the liturgy in Latin for centuries.
‘… praying at the same time for us as well, that God will open up to us a door for the word, so that we may speak forth the mystery of Christ, for which I have also been imprisoned; 4 that I may make it clear in the way I ought to speak 5 Conduct yourselves with wisdom toward outsiders, making the most of the opportunity. 6 Let your speech always be with grace, as though seasoned with salt, so that you will know how you should respond to each person’ (Col.4:3-5)

There is a biblical mystery that has 'not' yet been revealed though*, and it is the mystery of lawlessness and iniquity:
‘For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way’ (2 Thes.2:7) The Saints, do need to be aware of this mystery, and because it was already at work in the first century. Just saying, at least that mystery is biblical.
(*Unless, you are a full Preterist or possibly a Historist, i am neither)

zelosravioli said:

I know you are trying to defend the RCC tradition, and I know what they are attempting to say, but this interpretation is not the way Paul uses it because Paul says it has been ‘revealed’. It is not a mystery to the believer.
‘But it would be ridiculous to assert that the CC doesn't want that light to shine brighter; she’s always proclaimed and taught the truth that gives man hope in a lost and dying world and sets him free’ (fhansen)
The Catholic church teaches that ‘they’ are the priests and mediators to God. That is not truth. We are saved by grace unto works, and certainly do not need a priest or a church to save us, yet that is what the CC has taught for 15 centuries. And they have put Christians to death, and burned books for centuries.

Musterion: a mystery, secret, of which initiation is necessary; in the NT: the counsels of God, once hidden but now revealed in the Gospel or some fact thereof; the Christian revelation generally; particular truths or details of the Christian revelation’ (Strongs) Musterion: Mystery - is not something unknowable. Rather, it is what can only be known through revelation, i.e. because God reveals it. (Strong’s)

So we agree, it is unknown, until it is revealed. If you are in The Church it is because you know, and have believed Gods revelation. So why does the CC use the word mystery, and call the sacraments and the Gospel a mystery within their churches? If your in the Church, you are (should be) a believer. It is not biblical, for a believer, to call the Gospel a mystery.

It is though, a bit revealing! Maybe because for the leaders of the CC, the Gospel has not been revealed. Otherwise they would understand the Gospel. The Gospel has been revealed, perhaps the CC just does not understand it:
‘At that season Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou didst hide these things from the wise and understanding, and didst reveal them unto babes’ (Matt 11:25) And unto them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall in no wise understand; And seeing ye shall see, and shall in no wise perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, And their ears are dull of hearing, And their eyes they have closed; Lest haply they should perceive with their eyes, And hear with their ears, And understand with their heart, And should turn again, And I should heal them. But blessed are your eyes, for they see; and your ears, for they hear’ (Matt. 13:14-16)

The word mystery in Col.4 is in the context of what Paul was making known in his preaching ‘to those outside’. This is in the context of talking to the unbelievers, those outside the Church. The Church didn’t put Paul in prison. But it is interesting that the RCC put people in prison, burned them. And burned bibles and books, and kept the people in the dark, and kept the liturgy in Latin for centuries.
‘… praying at the same time for us as well, that God will open up to us a door for the word, so that we may speak forth the mystery of Christ, for which I have also been imprisoned; 4 that I may make it clear in the way I ought to speak 5 Conduct yourselves with wisdom toward outsiders, making the most of the opportunity. 6 Let your speech always be with grace, as though seasoned with salt, so that you will know how you should respond to each person’ (Col.4:3-5)

There is a biblical mystery that has 'not' yet been revealed though*, and it is the mystery of lawlessness and iniquity:
‘For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way’ (2 Thes.2:7) The Saints, do need to be aware of this mystery, and because it was already at work in the first century. Just saying, at least that mystery is biblical.
(*Unless, you are a full Preterist or possibly a Historist, i am neither)

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You seem intent on hitting a piñata of your own creation and imagination; insisting that there is a Roman Catholic bogeyman to be addressed, but entirely not present in the language of the posters (whether Roman Catholic or otherwise).

Thus far everyone is in agreement that musterion/mystery refers to things revealed and unknowable except that they be revealed. So why are you continuing to swing at this imaginary piñata?

-CryptoLutheran

So why are you continuing to swing at this imaginary piñata?
Because the RCC church created the pinata, it is not imaginary. The bible does not support this interpretation; calling it a mystery is the exact opposite of it being revealed. The word means unknown, in either language. So the RCC has created a mass of thinking around the Gospel, that is opposite it's original meaning. In order to keep people in wonder, as if this truth is unknowable. Its a sales gimmick, to make one seem to have answers, which the laity does not. It promotes the idea that these truths are unknowable. It is religious deception.

'Excellent question, but not one we can answer. The Mystery remains, and we confess with St. Paul, "Great is the mystery of our religion, God appeared in the flesh..." (ViaCrucis #50)
Even in this context Paul identifies the Spirit and the flesh, the dichotomy of Christ. I think Paul did answer the question, the answer is no, God cannot die. He is vindicated in the Spirit, Paul and others in the NT have explained, and told us to be confident and assured, that we have had everything we needed for salvation in Christ, revealed. People might have a difficulty in understanding something, but that does not mean it is unknowable, or not revealed.


Is the Gospel also a mystery to you? I would think it is not, so why call it a mystery if God says it was revealed?

'Excellent question, but not one we can answer. The Mystery remains, and we confess with St. Paul, "Great is the mystery of our religion, God appeared in the flesh..." (ViaCrucis #50)
Again note that it is you that used mystery in the context of unknown, or unknowable. In other words 'mystery'. It would be wrong to let someone think we are actually not sure if God can die, as in the OP. I have no problem understanding that He was incarnated, but did not have all His Godhood or Glory in Him in the incarnation, and that His God Spirit could 'not' die. Whether or not Jesus created another separate human spirit for Himself in the incarnation, we don't know. But that is not what the OP asked, and that is not what Paul is referring to either as the mystery.

brinny said:

Yes?

Jesus died on the cross, right?

Did God?

Thank you kindly for any and all responses.

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Jesus is God, so God died on the cross.

Denial of this is denial of the Nicene Creed and a rejection of the Christian faith.

We cannot separate the Divinity with the humanity, nor can we confuse them. God and Man; two Natures and two Wills as One Hypostasis. If Jesus dies, then both the humanity and Divinity pass. So while God the Father and God the Holy Spirit did not die, since each Divine Hypostasis is equally God in every imaginable way (and more), then it is accurate to that that God did indeed die for God the Son did.

The ultimate Mystery of our faith precedes Catholicism by maybe a thousand years, and comes straight from the mouth of God himself.

"Where were you when I laid the foundations of the Earth? Tell me if you understand"


To be clear, I like explanations. I appreciate science, and I appreciate the logic and the reasoning that are so very much a part of the Catholic Church and Catholic history. I want as much as possible for my faith to be a reasoned faith rather than a blind faith, and do not ever want faith to ever contradict what is known and knowable about the world, or to contradict logic. I do not believe God to be a God of confusion. This to me is an inferior understanding of God, for God to blot out tomorrow what he declares as immutable law yesterday.

But at the heart of the concept of Mystery is humility, and understanding that our brains generate a finite intelligence, while God's reasons and his ways go well beyond man's ability to comprehend.

Theology of the death of God is at heart such a mystery. It is not based in Catholic hocus pocus. It is based in mankind's encounter with life, with the reality of being a spirit living in a material world.

The Catholic Church and Catholic teaching and Catholic theology could disappear tomorrow, and the mystery at the heart of our life here on earth would still remain.

Mystery is at the essence of our existence. It is essential to the growth of the spiritual imagination and is what makes hope the great spiritual gift that it is. Mystery is what makes us aware of the world of infinite possibility and potential.

Clare73 said:

The human body of Jesus died.
God did not die.

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I concur.

"Where were you when I laid the foundations of the Earth? Tell me if you understand" (Job)
You are confusing descriptions of the earths beginnings, the things we can't know and the hidden things, with what has been revealed:

"The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our sons forever, that we may observe all the words of this law’ (Duet. 29:29)
You are confusing ‘how many things are not explained in scripture, with what has been revealed’ And confusing what was unknown prior to the revelation of Christ. The Gospel and everything necessary for our understanding of salvation and the truth of the Godhead, Jesus Divinity, and the scripture to support this, has all been revealed. God is Eternal and Immortal, you cannot get around that. So we must correlate Revelation chap.1 with what God has revealed about Himself, what scripture revealed about The Sons incarnate state, and with statements like: “The Father is greater”. So this can mean that Jesus in His incarnate state could die, but nothing implies a part of the Divine nature died, nor is it necessary. There is nothing about these facts that are a mystery, we have had enough of these facts revealed so that we ‘can’ give an answer to the question.

Jesus became incarnate for a reason, because for one God cannot die. Saying God died is as convoluted as saying Mary is the mother of God. God cannot die, and God was not born. Both these statements are similar as they both leave the context of scripture and say something scripture intentionally does not say or mean.