I was rather amazed when in 2008 thousands of 401K and other retirement accounts litterally disappeared overnight, and Christians didn't get the message.
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I was rather amazed when in 2008 thousands of 401K and other retirement accounts litterally disappeared overnight, and Christians didn't get the message.
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gideons300
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Granted, but are we not called to full surrender to God? Do we surrender one dollar at a time, getting closer and loser to truly being all His, but never arriving there?
If we are His, does it not follow that all we possess is His as well? For most God does not require such zeal. Praise God He lets us keep His houses, His cars, His everything. But full surrender? That is not optional buyt at the heart of true Christianity. Real Christianity is a real repentance from living unto ourselves, running and loving our own lives. Christ has bought us and we are not our own, but such thoughts are met with looks of incredulousness by most children of God today. They simply have not heard such a gospel, one of actually needing to count the cost of following Him. That choice in made in the valley of decision and we are all headed there.
Jesus asked us what man, seeking to build a tower, does not first sit down and go over the costs before beginning to build? He asked when king going to war would not first asses whether he has the army to defeat the enemy. Are we told that at our conversion? I certainly was not.
There IS a cost to following Jesus. It is self. We are asked to abandon ourselves into the care of the Lord, willing to part with every pearl we possess in order to possess the one pearl of great price. Is this a foolish decision? Not when we really trust God to catch us, to provide for us, to transform us when He has full possession of us.
To climb out of the boat and walk on the water to Jesus may seem like a hasty action, but in truth, if we remain in the boat, thinking it is the safe place, we are eating the apple of "Hath God said....?". Yes God HAS said, and yes, He WILL provide for us, but such an overcoming walk of faith can only come when we hate our lives the way they are, and not a moment before.
Blessings,
Gids
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yeshuaslavejeff
simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
in a real way, Jesus tells them, or us, that they won't listen (get the message) even if someone comes back from the grave and tells them.
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murjahel
Senior Veteran
I remember the VW... some of my compatriots carried it off into the woods at one site, hid it for nearly a week ... all meant to joke with him... the 8 foot wall was necessary for security in his position... the pool was for multiple families that lived on the 8 acres, so the children of the then well known minister and his family could safely play...
the words 'then the fall' do bother me...
for you did not say anything about 'then the repentance'
and he did repent, did straighten up his life, made things right with God, and we have no right to judge him for his 'previous to repentance' wrongs... anymore than we should judge you for your previous to repentance wrongs...
once you repent to God, God forgives... and the Christians should also be forgiving...
if our righteousness is real, our forgiveness should be too...
can you imagine if we lived in Paul's day... and were to introduce Paul to the congregation of our church... do we begin with ... THIS MAN BEAT AND IMPRISONED MANY OF US... HE HELPED IN THE STONING OF STEPHEN... AND WE ARE HORRIFIED IN HAVING THIS SAUL OF TARSUS TO BE OUR SPEAKER TODAY... AND MEET ME OUTSIDE AFTER WE ALL WALK OUT ON HIM..????
Why do we treat a repentant Jimmy Swaggart like an unrepentant sinner when God cannot even remember his sins... let alone him having 8 acres, with a wall of protection from people who might want to barge in...??????????
the pool placement??? was there a legitimate reason for such, was it too near electric lines, did it have issues of safety in its placement... and if paid for by ministry money, was it the 'ministry' surprising their pastor with a 'gift'... and do we now do away with 'pastor appreciation gifts' to be fair with all ministers the same way you want it for Jimmy? It sounds like it was a 'surprise' gift to me, if they did not have input on placement, and were surprised upon return from their ministry engagement!!!
Can a minister morally try to lose weight, or was that a sin? Can a minister begin going to a barber, instead of cutting his hair by himself?
I grew up in a minister's home, later pastored myself... When the carpet wore out in the church, holes and all it was put into the parsonage, to replace the even worse carpet there... Raises were never asked for by me or my father, and the stinginess of some churches certainly kept my father poor for over 50 years of ministry... I never asked for a raise, in fact, most of the time I had no salary... and spent more to minister than I ever collected to cover my own expenses... I worked a job so I would not have to ask for any of the church money...
I am tired of people treating those called to pastor as though they were worth less money than their beggar at the freeway exit...
People complain when some ministries go overboard on cars, mansions, etc... and there may be a few of them... they are not the norm... NOOO
most are treated like they are corner beggars, and occasionally they drop them a dime or two so they can splurge on a cup of coffee for dinner...
as a new Christian you were hired to do lawn work for him... I hope you were Christian and considered it wrong to accept any money for doing so... I hope you did not make enough to provide for a safe place for your family... I hope you were judged for your work in the way you judge your employer...
the words 'then the fall' do bother me...
for you did not say anything about 'then the repentance'
and he did repent, did straighten up his life, made things right with God, and we have no right to judge him for his 'previous to repentance' wrongs... anymore than we should judge you for your previous to repentance wrongs...
once you repent to God, God forgives... and the Christians should also be forgiving...
if our righteousness is real, our forgiveness should be too...
can you imagine if we lived in Paul's day... and were to introduce Paul to the congregation of our church... do we begin with ... THIS MAN BEAT AND IMPRISONED MANY OF US... HE HELPED IN THE STONING OF STEPHEN... AND WE ARE HORRIFIED IN HAVING THIS SAUL OF TARSUS TO BE OUR SPEAKER TODAY... AND MEET ME OUTSIDE AFTER WE ALL WALK OUT ON HIM..????
Why do we treat a repentant Jimmy Swaggart like an unrepentant sinner when God cannot even remember his sins... let alone him having 8 acres, with a wall of protection from people who might want to barge in...??????????
the pool placement??? was there a legitimate reason for such, was it too near electric lines, did it have issues of safety in its placement... and if paid for by ministry money, was it the 'ministry' surprising their pastor with a 'gift'... and do we now do away with 'pastor appreciation gifts' to be fair with all ministers the same way you want it for Jimmy? It sounds like it was a 'surprise' gift to me, if they did not have input on placement, and were surprised upon return from their ministry engagement!!!
Can a minister morally try to lose weight, or was that a sin? Can a minister begin going to a barber, instead of cutting his hair by himself?
I grew up in a minister's home, later pastored myself... When the carpet wore out in the church, holes and all it was put into the parsonage, to replace the even worse carpet there... Raises were never asked for by me or my father, and the stinginess of some churches certainly kept my father poor for over 50 years of ministry... I never asked for a raise, in fact, most of the time I had no salary... and spent more to minister than I ever collected to cover my own expenses... I worked a job so I would not have to ask for any of the church money...
I am tired of people treating those called to pastor as though they were worth less money than their beggar at the freeway exit...
People complain when some ministries go overboard on cars, mansions, etc... and there may be a few of them... they are not the norm... NOOO
most are treated like they are corner beggars, and occasionally they drop them a dime or two so they can splurge on a cup of coffee for dinner...
as a new Christian you were hired to do lawn work for him... I hope you were Christian and considered it wrong to accept any money for doing so... I hope you did not make enough to provide for a safe place for your family... I hope you were judged for your work in the way you judge your employer...
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Frogster
Galatians is the best!
Wow..interesting story Gideon, glad you shared that. One time I challenged the Swaggarts on the frances friends show about tithing, then Frances implied I was not saved, or may God have mercy on my soul, or something like that, but the implication no doubt was awful. I got Donnie to admit, that Abrahaham just gave once, after he tried to use Heb 7 on me, frances got mad after that.
They once said that they get the most emails about tithing, betcha they are the people who do not support extractions. Now they never take calls on tithing..That move the pool part is grievous...
She is also getting cosmetic stuff done on her face, I wonder if tithe is paying for that? I don't mean that to be offensive or rude, but any one can see it, it is just a fact, and it's normal to wonder if poor tithers payed for that luxury. Plus, I wonder who pays for all of those outfits and gold jewelry?
Blessings to you too.
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Frogster
Galatians is the best!
The bottom line, is that when excess people demand money from poor people, that is a real problem. Is that fair?
ohhhh..I forgot, they say that the Mal 3 curse will come if people don't give. One time Jimmy said if you don't give, you will loose your wallet, or bad things will happen to the person who does not give, all while his eyes were full of anger, right on TV, so if you want to defend that kind of behavior, go ahead, I won't. Paul was gracious.
The Swaggarts like to fight the MJ people that call in, but when it comes to money, the Swaggarts are pure law and condemnation doctrinally..
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murjahel
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So familiar... my dad pastored for 50 years plus... I pastored for many too...
The sacrifices for ministry, the suffering oft to keep people from judging and condemning, the living far below the level the people of the church lived... is all so familiar...
I did it willingly... My father did...
I remember one church when I was only 2 or 3 years old... The offering on Sunday went to keep the church running, but there was a jar on the wall in the back, where offerings for the pastors' salary were put...
one Sunday, I saw my father put in a dollar bill, into the jar, just to let people be reminded that into that jar offerings could be put... as I learned, my father made no mention of it during the service, and just trusted the Lord to encourage people to remember he had a family to feed...
that Sunday, at the close of the service, after everyone was gone, my father went back to the jar, opened it, and stood there looking disappointed... he withdrew the money, and it was only the dollar he had put in... I could, even at that young age, sense the concern of my father, wondering how he was going to feed us that week...
I spoke up, and said: IF YOU HAD PUT MORE INTO IT, YOU'D HAVE GOTTEN MORE OUT OF IT?
My dad laughed... and used that as a sermon illustration many times, as a lesson from God... put more work into the ministry, and you will get more out of it... I am sure all the suffering years are being rewarded now, he is in heaven, and I am sure receiving great reward...
Later, that day, my dad walked to the store to buy what he could for the $1...
on the way, a man stopped and said... 'God spoke to me to give you this $5' and have you use it as you need. My father returned with several bags of groceries, and my mother stood there with her mouth open, asking how he got all of that for $1... and my father told her the story... (in those days $5 could buy a week or two or groceries)
Some people think the pastor needs to be kept poor so he will be humble... When reward time in heaven comes, perhaps the Lord will keep them humble in heaven for being so considerate in their years here... LOL
The sacrifices for ministry, the suffering oft to keep people from judging and condemning, the living far below the level the people of the church lived... is all so familiar...
I did it willingly... My father did...
I remember one church when I was only 2 or 3 years old... The offering on Sunday went to keep the church running, but there was a jar on the wall in the back, where offerings for the pastors' salary were put...
one Sunday, I saw my father put in a dollar bill, into the jar, just to let people be reminded that into that jar offerings could be put... as I learned, my father made no mention of it during the service, and just trusted the Lord to encourage people to remember he had a family to feed...
that Sunday, at the close of the service, after everyone was gone, my father went back to the jar, opened it, and stood there looking disappointed... he withdrew the money, and it was only the dollar he had put in... I could, even at that young age, sense the concern of my father, wondering how he was going to feed us that week...
I spoke up, and said: IF YOU HAD PUT MORE INTO IT, YOU'D HAVE GOTTEN MORE OUT OF IT?
My dad laughed... and used that as a sermon illustration many times, as a lesson from God... put more work into the ministry, and you will get more out of it... I am sure all the suffering years are being rewarded now, he is in heaven, and I am sure receiving great reward...
Later, that day, my dad walked to the store to buy what he could for the $1...
on the way, a man stopped and said... 'God spoke to me to give you this $5' and have you use it as you need. My father returned with several bags of groceries, and my mother stood there with her mouth open, asking how he got all of that for $1... and my father told her the story... (in those days $5 could buy a week or two or groceries)
Some people think the pastor needs to be kept poor so he will be humble... When reward time in heaven comes, perhaps the Lord will keep them humble in heaven for being so considerate in their years here... LOL
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gideons300
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Brother, the subject of the thread is the dangers of money. I simply shared what I personally witnessed. It was not hearsay but a perfect example of going overboard for self gratification, using God for personal gain. Do you have any idea what the average man thought about the 8 acre compound located on the priciest piece of land in East baton Rouge parish? The word is hypocrisy. Weeping for the plight of orphans, and then escaping to your million dollar escape compound is exactly that.
Thank God Jimmy did repent, but again, the point was not about anything but the effect money can have on people, even men called into the ministry. I did not share this to gossip, as some here suppose. I said it to make a point, and in all honesty, that is the first time I ever shared that knowledge with anyone.
An 8 foot wall to keep people out? Do you suspect Peter and Paul would do the same, living high off the donated funds from widows and retirees? I am sorry you do not agree, but what I shared is the truth, and to this day even after his turning back to God, his ministry still "gives" things to donors, if it of course is a large enough gift. So much for making a donation with a pure motive. We have made Christianity a very marketable...and profitable business.
Money and the gospel needs to be a delicte mix, and it takes much prayer to stay humble and not let it go to one's head. The reasoning many use is that being such a pastor over so many is like being a CEO, and they should get CEO's pay. God weeps at the blindness of such convoluted worldly logic.
As to your statement about not accepting pay for my work, I wonder if the pool company and the general contractor, the maid and the personal assistant did that? A workman is worthy of his hire, both in things of God and things of this life.
As to your statement "I hope you did not make enough to provide for a safe place for your family", I will be honest, brother, I am confused. Why would you say such a thing? If Jimmy had to hide his family behind walls to protect their privacy (in their luxurious estate), that alone should tell us something. In that supposition, every single minister of the gospel would have a built in excuse for such extravagance, but God sees through it. Others not so much.
I apologize for upsetting any, especially you, brother, for you are a good poster that I respect greatly. That was not my intent, but ministers of the gospel are to be above reproach, avoiding even the appearance of evil or covetousness. Jimmy did not, and neither do many others who are getting rich off the sheep, using God's funds to do so, and thinking it perfectly acceptable. Brother, that is a conscience seared with a hot iron. May God open our eyes to the truth.
Blessings,
Gideon
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gideons300
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Brother, my heart goes out to every man of God who is truly doing God's work and often suffering financially for it. And it is because of that that when ministers do go to excess, delving deep into wants rather than needs. it makes me heartbroken that God's name is drug through the mud in the eyes of the world.
Again, I apologize if I upset you.
Blessings,
Gideon
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murjahel
Senior Veteran
I questioned how you spent your money taking care of his lawn, for I am sure he paid you, for you criticized how he spent the money he earned... Did it make you feel funny when someone questioned how you spent your money? Does your decision on how to spend it have to do with what your children needed, what protection might be necessary for them? Did you feel dishonored that some one like me might question you deserving to make your own choices with money you earned by your labors?
and thought that for a well known man, whose children and grand children might be more in danger due to the notoriety of their father/grandfather he might want a wall around the 8 acres...
The VW was many years before the 8 acres... did you hold hard feelings, judgmental attitudes for all that time, even until now?
You preach overcoming of sin... and it is wrong to be judgmental of the servants of the Lord... and if anyone judges him, it should be the Lord...
Romans 14:4 (KJV)
4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
No, I do not agree with everything he has ever said and done... but he repented, and the last time he was in town here, he was 'genuinely' repentant for his former sins... his sermon that day was the best I have 'ever' heard from him... I do not think we have a right to judge him for former sins, already repented...
Jesus allowed a woman to pour an ointment on him, and was criticized for that ointment was extremely valuable... and could have fed hundreds with its value.... It was used to anoint the Lord with good smelling stuff, and to clean his dirty feet... a wet wipe could have done that for pennies...
are we going to judge each other on how the other spends their money??? is not there more valuable ways to spend our discussion time...
His million dollar estate is protected, and gives him some needed privacy. I think I will let the Lord tell him if he is out of line...
An 'I'm perfect' sermon will sound more real if we really have found repentance for all our own sins... Our repentance sermons need preached to a mirror first...
The privacy issue is far greater than you realize... it is not a selfish need, it is one of necessity for well known ministers... some even well meaning people will harass, some not so well meaning will do far worse... in protecting his children and grand children, I am glad he did that... I hope he hired security to patrol too... and I hope his board members were loving enough to be sure their pastor was well paid to be able to protect them.
Not all his money came from the church... some was from his records, albums, videos, etc... that were personal (not church) earnings...
Yes, I am tired of seeing all the judging of other ministries here... I have spent most of my life in ministry, have seen many try to judge others on their much, and even on how some used their 'little'... It is time we mature to better topics...
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murjahel
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When I was seven years old, my father was starting a church, working a full time job, pastoring about 40 - 50 people in an old store building, trying to raise enough money to build a new church...
One sunday, my dad, with money he had earned from working at General Electric, started making payments on a brand new chevy car... about $3000 in that day... it was not paid for, but with his earnings from non church source, he could make the payment...
one parishioner noticed that Sunday that there was 3000 dollars less in the building fund account sheet on the bulletin board of the church...
so her natural assumption was that my father had stolen 3000 and bought a new car with the church's money...
she immediately called the denominations general superintendent to come that afternoon so my dad could be confronted and fired...
well, I remember the embarrassment of my father, as he spoke to the general superintendent, and explained... and then in a called business meeting showed the congregation that the 3000 missing dollars was for the property the church had voted to buy on which to build that new church...
my father knew how to lay brick, do carpentry, do plumbing, do electric work, and he by himself built that new building, while still pastoring the church, while still working full time at general electric...
the church apologized... the superintendent was sorry he had been falsely accused by a forgetful church member... and my father kept lovingly ministering to that church, which now is still going... still winning souls...
what some people do not know... how judgingly some judge others in the ministry...
false assumptions, jumping to conclusions, embarrassing a man of God, trying to get one fired when it was all based on ignorance and a judgmental spirit...
if a pastor drives a clunker, some are happy...
if the pastor lives in a dilapidated home, the church is proud to call him their pastor...
if that same minister retires and has no retirement savings, can barely survive their last years... and has to depend upon meagre social security alone, some others live on their CD's, their retirement plan, social security, and feel justified to take their Caribbean cruises... while their pastor switches to generic meds, so he can have enough left to buy a bag of potatoes and lunchmeat...
I would not want to be those kind of saints that did that to a minister at the judgment seat of Christ...
One sunday, my dad, with money he had earned from working at General Electric, started making payments on a brand new chevy car... about $3000 in that day... it was not paid for, but with his earnings from non church source, he could make the payment...
one parishioner noticed that Sunday that there was 3000 dollars less in the building fund account sheet on the bulletin board of the church...
so her natural assumption was that my father had stolen 3000 and bought a new car with the church's money...
she immediately called the denominations general superintendent to come that afternoon so my dad could be confronted and fired...
well, I remember the embarrassment of my father, as he spoke to the general superintendent, and explained... and then in a called business meeting showed the congregation that the 3000 missing dollars was for the property the church had voted to buy on which to build that new church...
my father knew how to lay brick, do carpentry, do plumbing, do electric work, and he by himself built that new building, while still pastoring the church, while still working full time at general electric...
the church apologized... the superintendent was sorry he had been falsely accused by a forgetful church member... and my father kept lovingly ministering to that church, which now is still going... still winning souls...
what some people do not know... how judgingly some judge others in the ministry...
false assumptions, jumping to conclusions, embarrassing a man of God, trying to get one fired when it was all based on ignorance and a judgmental spirit...
if a pastor drives a clunker, some are happy...
if the pastor lives in a dilapidated home, the church is proud to call him their pastor...
if that same minister retires and has no retirement savings, can barely survive their last years... and has to depend upon meagre social security alone, some others live on their CD's, their retirement plan, social security, and feel justified to take their Caribbean cruises... while their pastor switches to generic meds, so he can have enough left to buy a bag of potatoes and lunchmeat...
I would not want to be those kind of saints that did that to a minister at the judgment seat of Christ...
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gideons300
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Brother, it seems I have hit a nerve. Again, not my intent. I do however want to discuss what you said.
Jimmy Swaggart and other television evangelists and superstar mega-church pastors are to be no different than any other ministers. They must still live lives above reproach, avoiding even the appearance of evil, amen? Their lives, their testimonies, must be in line with scriptures because they are to be examples to the flock. If not, those converted will themselves follow their twisted example of Christian living.
As to the safety of Jimmy's family,whatever happened to trusting God for one's safety? If God calls a man to minister, do you not think he will also protect?
As to judging, you of all people know well the scriptures. You bring up the "judge not lest ye be judged" verse, but of all people, you know full well the other verse on it. Why did you not quote it as well?
We are told to not judge those outside the church, but on the inside? We must make judgment. Not PASS judgment, but make judgment. Otherwise, wolves can come into our midst, plow under the sheep, live off their fat, muddy the waters the sheep must drink, and if any lifts up their voice to say "These things ought not be so", they are attacked for judging while the wolves continue to fleece the sheep. Something is really skewed about such "logic".
If Jimmy is a friend of yours, I can understand your desire to come to his defense, but to let it override the truth of the warnings of scripture, no friendship is worth that. Error is error.
I have apologized if I have offended you. But the truth is still the truth. Rich minsters of the gospel, lest they repent, will not like their last day on earth, for God has said:.
"Why do you call me 'Lord, Lord' and not DO the things I have commanded you."
May God raise up ministers who will be examples to the sheep in their lowliness, simplicity, and proper godly relationship to money and the riches of this world. Paul said he counts the loss of all things of this world as dung that he might win Christ. May God return us to such a mindset.
Blessings,
Gideon
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gideons300
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Brother, I have already stated that I fully agree. A workman is worth of his labor. You let the ox who is grinding at the mill eat some of what he grinds.
But to try to make driving Bentleys, living in multi million dollar luxury villas, kept safe from those one is ministering to, flying off in personal Lear jets, acceptable in any way, shape or form, is simply convoluted logic, twisting scriptures to make such a life perfectly acceptable when it is a grievous sin
The two examples you are comparing have virtually no relationship. it is wrong for pastors to labor and live below the standards of those he is ministering to, agreed. But is it not also wrong for a minster to live so far above his flock that he lives like a king, and they are all laboring to keep hm in his luxuries? How can we come up with any other answer than "YES"?
I am frankly blown away by the blindness we have towards such behavior. Surely it is clear in scriptures, for the warnings are everywhere. Why will we not listen to what the spirit is saying to the church? And right now, what is it saying?
"Write to Laodicea, to the Angel of the church. God’s Yes, the Faithful and Accurate Witness, the First of God’s creation, says:
“I know you inside and out, and find little to my liking. You’re not cold, you’re not hot—far better to be either cold or hot! You’re stale. You’re stagnant. You make me want to vomit. You brag, ‘I’m rich, I’ve got it made, I need nothing from anyone,’ oblivious that in fact you’re a pitiful, blind beggar, threadbare and homeless.
“Here’s what I want you to do: Buy your gold from me, gold that’s been through the refiner’s fire. Then you’ll be rich. Buy your clothes from me, clothes designed in Heaven. You’ve gone around half-naked long enough. And buy medicine for your eyes from me so you can see, really see.
“The people I love, I call to account—prod and correct and guide so that they’ll live at their best. Up on your feet, then! About face! Run after God!
“Look at me. I stand at the door. I knock. If you hear me call and open the door, I’ll come right in and sit down to supper with you. Conquerors will sit alongside me at the head table, just as I, having conquered, took the place of honor at the side of my Father. That’s my gift to the conquerors!
“Are your ears awake? Listen. Listen to the Wind Words, the Spirit blowing through the churches.”
Revelation 3
I pray we all listen to our God, now more than ever before.
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You and me both.
The blindness begins when folks turn their eyes toward a man/woman and start worshiping them and their "ministry" instead of following God.
But the justification for such behavior will continue by those who have been duped.
IMO, Matthew 7:21-23 is specifically directed towards those "great menogawd" who have deceived, roped and corralled the naive and hurting masses into their herd.
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gideons300
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Better topics? What better topic than knowing how sheep are to live? And who is to teach them if not the ministers themselves? If they set poor examples, do you not realize the sheep will follow?
Here is the truth of the matter. Jimmy repented of his sexual sin. Wonderful. I made nothing of that. But his behavior, his lifestyle, his continuing to peddle the word of God has never been repented of.
Selling his tapes, his teachings, it is simply making merchandise of God's truth. Our very approach is wrong when we do this, and is no better than the money changers who were whipped out of the temple of God by the one we follow. He said that they were making God's house a place to peddle merchandise, and make it a den of thieves.
Do you not see? it is NOT his truth to peddle. it is God's truth. Show me one example in the church of the Bible where they ever sold the truth for profit. Just one. You cannot, for it does not exist. I understand that cassettes and tapes cost money. I do. BUT, the monies received should cover that cost, not make profit off it.
But here is the big one. If it does make profit, that is not Jimmy's money. it is God's and should go towards true works of God, not luxury compounds and Rolex watches. If our current take on the gospel produces superstars who must hide from their congregants, then we are doing it wrong and need to look at where the error lies. Our entire church structure is not built on the greatest taking the lowest seat, but placing them as mini-Lords over the flock.
We are told that to do otherwise is to harbor evil thoughts.
May God help us recover the Spirit of the early church, where lowliness and humility were the prized possessions of ministers of the gospel, rather than the things Paul called dung.
Our God will have a church without spot or wrinkle, pure and holy, in these last days, but it will not be led by those we think most spiritual today, men we hold in admiration due to their singing voices, or preaching skill. May God raise up a generation of preachers who live what they preach, and who lead by examples as to how to be in the world, but not OF it.
Blessings,
Gideon
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