A powerful delusion

nick garai

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According to 2 Thessalonians 2:11, G-d sends a powerful delusion to people to believe a lie. Now how does this fit with G-d's character? How can G-d send a delusion to cause people to wander astray? I thought that this would be more the activity of demons and the Devil. Any thoughts on this?
 

redblue22

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According to 2 Thessalonians 2:11, G-d sends a powerful delusion to people to believe a lie. Now how does this fit with G-d's character? How can G-d send a delusion to cause people to wander astray? I thought that this would be more the activity of demons and the Devil. Any thoughts on this?

What makes you think God is causing people to wander astray? People that do not want to depend on God are not given the truth. This reminds me of why Jesus spoke in parables--so they would NOT understand.

.
 
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orangeness365

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2 Thessalonians 2:9-12
9The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, 10and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, 12in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

I think what it's basically saying is that by not believing the truth of God and trying to do the right thing, they refuse to, and by default believe what is false. You can not believe truth and falsehood about God, it's one or the other.
 
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r035198x

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Interesting, It looks as though the deception happens only as judgement.
Certainly the three mentions of God deceiving apart from the controversial 2 Thess 2:11 show the deception as judgement (peculiarly it's judgement for believing a lie instead of the truth)

1.) 1 kings 22:22. Ahab was already convinced that Ramoth Gilead was his and he wanted to take it back. It was custom to justify a king's actions by reinforcing them with a prophet's word so Jehoshaphat had 400 prophets proclaim that Ahab would win(it appears that the prophets were asked by the messengers to speak favorably to the king as they did the same to Micaiah (22:13)). 1 kings 16:31 documents some of Ahab's previous misdemeanors. So here the deception was not sent to confuse a righteous man, rather it was sent as judgement against sinful actions. Also in this instance Micaiah actually revealed what the truth was before the battle but the king ignored it anyway.

2.) Ezekiel 14:9 is similar. There a general disregard of Ezekiel's prophecies with people following other prophets, they started saying to Ezekiel's prophecies “The days are long and every vision fails" (12:22) Ezekiel 13 then goes on to reveal who the true prophets are and how to identify them. The whole passage is concerned with lies vs truth.
In 14:1 it is made clear that the people coming to inquire of the 'prophets' had already setup idols in their hearts so (14:9) God will deceive them through the false prophet and judge both the false prophet and inquirer. Thus it wasn't an obedient Israel that God was deceiving.

3.)Romans 1:18-32 is a treacherous passage in modern times. All I can say about the passage is that the deception is similar to the OT references above in that it is a result of ungodliness, particularly, vs25 "Who changed the truth of God into a lie". The deception is clearly identified as a consequence of past actions by the words vs 26 "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections".

The big difference between these examples and 2 Thess 2:11 is that 2 Thess is widely believed to be referring to the future tribulation time which is theologically unique and so makes it difficult to use examples or analogies of past stories that occurred outside this period. During that time the antichrist wil deceive everyone and make them believe that he is invincible. Truth vs lie will again be a central theme. I lean on the belief that the deception will only be allowed to those who had previously been presented with the truth and denied it.

TLDR? I think the deception is a vehicle of judgement that God uses for those that have already transgressed.
 
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Jupiter Drops

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According to 2 Thessalonians 2:11, G-d sends a powerful delusion to people to believe a lie. Now how does this fit with G-d's character? How can G-d send a delusion to cause people to wander astray? I thought that this would be more the activity of demons and the Devil. Any thoughts on this?

I remember reading the Book of Daniel.
The story goes, King Nebuchadnezzar went insane for seven years because he didn't listen to the warnings that God gave him.

Nick, you basically answered your own question.
But you should really read the whole chapter rather than concentrating on one verse.
2 Thessalonians 2 talks about those who don't believe in God's warnings, despite being told repeatedly.
Basically, you reap what you sow (Galatians 6:7).
 
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Stravinsk

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According to 2 Thessalonians 2:11, G-d sends a powerful delusion to people to believe a lie. Now how does this fit with G-d's character? How can G-d send a delusion to cause people to wander astray? I thought that this would be more the activity of demons and the Devil. Any thoughts on this?

Good question Nick. It reminds me of the hardening of Pharoah's heart. I once read what I thought was a pretty good apologetic for the Exodus story, in that said "hardening" was merely God putting a binary choice to Pharoah that He already knew the outcome of - thus - the "hardening" wasn't an over-riding of a will in a certain area - it was simply foreknowledge of what would happen when the choice itself was presented - ie: keep the Israelites as slaves or let them go.

Unfortunately (for me at least) Paul of Tarsus completely destroys this apologetic in Romans 9.
 
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Nanopants

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^^That's an interesting take, and may outline some of the spiritual principles involved in becoming deluded, but what's described seems to be a mass delusion rather than one single person.

According to 2 Thessalonians 2:11, G-d sends a powerful delusion to people to believe a lie. Now how does this fit with G-d's character? How can G-d send a delusion to cause people to wander astray? I thought that this would be more the activity of demons and the Devil. Any thoughts on this?

Yes, I do have a few.

If you take a close look at a number of passages in the book of Revelation, there are some interesting things going on. First and foremost is the prospect of eternal torture. Now, I would challenge anyone to name one evil greater than the prospect of torturing someone, for an extremely long period of time, because I personally can't (but please don't try it unless you already know; dwelling on evil isn't good for you). There are fates worse than death, and even murder, if dealt with fairly, warrants a death penalty, not an eternity of torture. If someone dear to me were murdered, I may be tempted to torture, but still, I know that it would require a certain amount of unforgiveness and malicious cruelty to carry it out way beyond that which is fair.

But is that wrong? Am I supposed to believe in a god that does that sort of stuff? Well, if you look carefully, the lake of fire where this is supposed to occur also bears significant similarities to the "sea of glass mingled with fire." But, that's also where the throne of God is said to be, and there are people or creatures said to be there dwelling in that fire.

Now, back to JD's reference to Nebuchadnezzar where we also see a similar picture painted in this story: Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego were said to have been cast into a furnace for not bowing and worshipping the image set up by Nebuchadnezzar, but they were unharmed and he saw four people in that fire, one being like the "Son of God."

So what would be the purpose of all of this? Scripture tells us that God is just and merciful, very explicitly, and Jesus echoed that same message in His beatitudes ("Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy"), before demonstrating His nature, being the image of the invisible God, by laying down His life for His friends.

How do we reconcile His nature with a willingness to torture a person beyond the point of mercy or justice? I cannot, but I find that if I do not reject the testimony of the prophets, the text reveals an entirely different interpretation. In other words, if I reject the testimony of the prophets, I will end up with an interpretation that supports the belief of a much more harsh and possibly even cruel god, much like what was happening in the story of Nebuchadnezzar and the three cast into the furnace.

Of course, if I happened to be someone who approved of malicious cruelty, and paid little attention to the revealed nature of God through Christ, I imagine that I might take little issue with that interpretation, possibly end up being terrified of God, and subject to harsh and impossible regulations, thus fastening me into "chains" of a sort, much like the scenario outlined in Jude and 2nd Peter.

Would this mean that God lied? No because the true nature of God is not hidden, but God does test and He always makes a way of escape. Remember also that the word of God is a "discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." Rejecting Christ, the prophets or the apostles (the foundation of the household of faith), is seriously not allowed and the consequences appear to have been designed appropriately. As Revelation states: "Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you holy apostles and prophets, for God has avenged you on her!."
 
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dmpeace

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^^That's an interesting take, and may outline some of the spiritual principles involved in becoming deluded, but what's described seems to be a mass delusion rather than one single person.



Yes, I do have a few.

If you take a close look at a number of passages in the book of Revelation, there are some interesting things going on. First and foremost is the prospect of eternal torture. Now, I would challenge anyone to name one evil greater than the prospect of torturing someone, for an extremely long period of time, because I personally can't. There are fates worse than death, and even murder, if dealt with fairly, warrants a death penalty, not an eternity of torture. If someone dear to me were murdered, I may be tempted to torture, but still, I know that it would require a certain amount of unforgiveness and malicious cruelty to carry it out way beyond that which is fair.

But is that wrong? Am I supposed to believe in a god that does that sort of stuff? Well, if you look carefully, the lake of fire where this is supposed to occur also bears significant similarities to the "sea of glass mingled with fire." But, that's also where the throne of God is said to be, and there are people or creatures said to be there dwelling in that fire.

Now, back to JD's reference to Nebuchadnezzar where we also see a similar picture painted in this story: Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego were said to have been cast into a furnace for not bowing and worshipping the image set up by Nebuchadnezzar, but they were unharmed and he saw four people in that fire, one being like the "Son of God."

So what would be the purpose of all of this? Scripture tells us that God is just and merciful, very explicitly, and Jesus echoed that same message in His beatitudes ("Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy"), before demonstrating His nature, being the image of the invisible God, by laying down His life for His friends.

How do we reconcile His nature with a willingness to torture a person beyond the point of mercy or justice? I cannot, but I find that if I do not reject the testimony of the prophets, the text reveals an entirely different interpretation. In other words, if I reject the testimony of the prophets, I will end up with an interpretation that supports the belief of a much more harsh and possibly even cruel god, much like what was happening in the story of Nebuchadnezzar and the three cast into the furnace.

Of course, if I happened to be someone who approved of malicious cruelty, and paid little attention to the revealed nature of God through Christ, I imagine that I might take little issue with that interpretation, possibly end up being terrified of God, and subject to harsh and impossible regulations, thus fastening me into "chains" of a sort, much like the scenario outlined in Jude and 2nd Peter.

Would this mean that God lied? No because the true nature of God is not hidden, but God does test and He always makes a way of escape. Remember also that the word of God is a "discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." Rejecting Christ, the prophets or the apostles (the foundation of the household of faith), is seriously not allowed and the consequences appear to have been designed appropriately. As Revelation states: "Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you holy apostles and prophets, for God has avenged you on her!."

I can think of a greater evil, mans continual sin and rebellion against a holy God that created us for Him to worship Him. Because you don't like the idea of hell doesn't mean you get to create your own god. God is an eternal being and when you sin against the eternal God and His goodness and God is life you reap an eternal punishment whether you understand it or not. You want to see the seriousness of sin look at the cross, where the glorious and pure holy God did not spare His only Son but crushed Him. God came from eternal glory to become a man and die for wretched God hating sinners, that is infinite love to reject it is to reject eternal life which is God. Jesus came to bring salvation-from what? Its that serious, from the eternal wrath of God. Back to topic.
 
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Nanopants

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I can think of a greater evil, mans continual sin and rebellion against a holy God that created us for Him to worship Him. Because you don't like the idea of hell doesn't mean you get to create your own god. God is an eternal being and when you sin against the eternal God and His goodness and God is life you reap an eternal punishment whether you understand it or not. You want to see the seriousness of sin look at the cross, where the glorious and pure holy God did not spare His only Son but crushed Him. God came from eternal glory to become a man and die for wretched God hating sinners, that is infinite love to reject it is to reject eternal life which is God. Jesus came to bring salvation-from what? Its that serious, from the eternal wrath of God. Back to topic.

But I did not create my own god, dmpeace. He revealed Himself, and He did not torture anyone. He was tortured by people who thought they believed in God and who believed their torture of Him was justified, but they didn't recognize Him. As scripture says, "He came to His own and His own did not receive Him" and as Christ said, "he who has seen Me has seen the Father."
 
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JackofSpades

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In other words, if I reject the testimony of the prophets, I will end up with an interpretation that supports the belief of a much more harsh and possibly even cruel god, much like what was happening in the story of Nebuchadnezzar and the three cast into the furnace.

OT is interesting if read symbolically. I think story of Nebuchadnezzar and three guys could be seen this way:

King of Babylon is image of bad god, intimidating being who is demanding worship. He is willing to throw unsubmitting people into lake of fire. But there were humans who had faith that there is better god out there, who is even more powerful than mad king.

Now these people who did not submit to that bad god, were seemingly doomed, but instead of perishing in lake of fire, they found contact with actual god, who was willing to meet these outcasts and save them from harm. Earthly gods judgements didn't bother this actual god.

Once the guys are safe, even their image of god (the king) changes, ceasing his lake of fire.
 
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Messy

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According to 2 Thessalonians 2:11, G-d sends a powerful delusion to people to believe a lie. Now how does this fit with G-d's character? How can G-d send a delusion to cause people to wander astray? I thought that this would be more the activity of demons and the Devil. Any thoughts on this?

If they don't want to hear the truth He gives them over to it, because they don't love the truth. He doesn't take those demons and false teaching away.
Last Days Prophecies - Christian Revival, Revival Prophecy
4. The coming deception
 
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