Orthodox view of Christology

HumbleMan

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Good afternoon,

As I'm getting older, I'm finding myself on what feels like a pilgrimage that is exploring - and testing- my faith in my church's doctrines.

:confused:

I was wondering what the Orthodox view of Christology was; the churches view on does Christ intervene now or is this the role of the Holy Spirit; and the role of evangelism in the Orthodox church.

Thanks in advance! :cool:

Marc
 

ArmyMatt

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I was wondering what the Orthodox view of Christology was;

that's pretty heavy question. your best bet, check out a service and talk to the priest afterwards. Christ is experienced

the churches view on does Christ intervene now or is this the role of the Holy Spirit

Both and the Father. The Father never acts without His Son or His Spirit.
and the role of evangelism in the Orthodox church.

a heavy role, may I ask what Orthodox Church is closest to you?
 
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HumbleMan

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Thank you.

I guess as far as Christological questions go, I'm interested in what the church teaches about the union of the spiritual and human natures of Jesus, and the significance of His crucifiction (did he die in our place/ was he the final sacrifice/ did He atone for our sins/ etc.).

I believe there is a Greek Orthodox a few cities over. I might email the priest, but in the meantime, I value your input. I've always been impressed in the level of theological understanding you have of your church.
 
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~Anastasia~

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Thank you.

I guess as far as Christological questions go, I'm interested in what the church teaches about the union of the spiritual and human natures of Jesus, and the significance of His crucifiction (did he die in our place/ was he the final sacrifice/ did He atone for our sins/ etc.).

I believe there is a Greek Orthodox a few cities over. I might email the priest, but in the meantime, I value your input. I've always been impressed in the level of theological understanding you have of your church.

Ohhhhhhhh ......

The hypostatic union and theories of Atonement!

(Sorry, I get enthusiastic about theology!)

Much as I want to answer you with what limited understanding I have at this point, I know that someone else can do MUCH better. I've only just been received into the Church formally.

I will let someone else talk about the Incarnation and the hypostatic union and the divine and human will, etc.

Theories of atonement are completely wonderful to me. Someone else can explain that better than I can too, but I can't help from saying just a little bit.

The Orthodox Church - afaik - doesn't insist on a single atonement theory. However, I think you will find by far the most emphasis given to Christ as victor over death. Even though He was God, he died and thus He defeated death. We sing "Christ is risen from the dead, Trampling down death by death, And upon those in the tombs Bestowing life!" during the Pascha season. I once heard a priest explain it like blowing up a balloon. A balloon is meant to hold a certain amount of air. Humans dying are to death like blowing up a balloon. Christ God dying was to death like attaching a huge tank of air and completely bursting the balloon because death cannot hold Him. Thus death was destroyed. (Of course we still die, but death can no longer hold all it takes, and resurrection is now possible - and of course one day death will be abolished finally and completely.)

There are elements of other atonement theories too. Often if you ask "was Christ doing this, or this, or this, or this, or this?" the answer is ... yes.

However, I would say penal substitution is either nonexistent or so far off to the side to be almost so. There is not the sense of the dichotomy of God - a vengeful Father-God that must have his anger assuaged by a sacrificial Christ who "protects us from God the Father" by being killed in our place. That is not an Orthodox view of God the Father.

Also various ransom theories - depending on how you play them out - have problems. Who is the ransom paid to? Can God owe satan? (So the ransom cannot be to Satan) etc.

We are also careful not to see God as having a "problem" ... ie, He wants to forgive us, but He is simply not able to.

Much of the talk of salvation has more to do with healing us from the sickness of sin rather than removing the legalistic obligation to pay for it. The grace of God provides medicine to our souls. BTW, healing and salvation are very connected in Scripture - in the Greek, the word is interchangeable, and not only that, but Christ was explicit at times, "rise up and walk, your sins are forgiven".

Sorry. I'm just excited about the whole idea. :) Like I said, someone else can do better. But I just had to say a few things. It's a very rich and deep set of ideas that encompass far more of restoration of the entire person (and indeed with an eye to restoring all of Creation) and accomplishing our reconciliation to God as well as us being transformed into His image - so much more than a simple legal transaction.
 
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Kristos

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The Council of Chalcedon (4th Ecumentical Councel) sums up the hypostatic union pretty well:

We, then, following the holy Fathers, all with one consent, teach people to confess one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, the same perfect in Godhead and also perfect in manhood; truly God and truly man, of a reasonable [rational] soul and body; consubstantial [co-essential] with the Father according to the Godhead, and consubstantial with us according to the Manhood; in all things like unto us, without sin; begotten before all ages of the Father according to the Godhead, and in these latter days, for us and for our salvation, born of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God, according to the Manhood; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, only begotten, to be acknowledged in two natures, inconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably; (ἐν δύο φύσεσιν ἀσυγχύτως, ἀτρέπτως, ἀδιαιρέτως, ἀχωρίστως – in duabus naturis inconfuse, immutabiliter, indivise, inseparabiliter) the distinction of natures being by no means taken away by the union, but rather the property of each nature being preserved, and concurring in one Person (prosopon) and one Subsistence (hypostasis), not parted or divided into two persons, but one and the same Son, and only begotten God (μονογενῆ Θεόν), the Word, the Lord Jesus Christ; as the prophets from the beginning [have declared] concerning Him, and the Lord Jesus Christ Himself has taught us, and the Creed of the holy Fathers has handed down to us.
 
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Kristos

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As far as the crucifiction - (and resurrection of course) - the answer is D - all of the above. I don't mean that to be snarky - I think when you really get into it, the fact of the matter is that Christ accomplished all of it, and so you will find this in scripture and in the ECFs - the problem some people seem to have is that they want to distill the great mystery to a single "metaphor"/theory - all the ways of talking about what was accomplished on the Cross add to it - even in their contradictions.

That might not seem like a very good answer - but I think that's the point. The mystery of the Cross should be a lifelong meditation...
 
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Knee V

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All that our salvation *is* is summed up and embodied in the person of Christ. All that it means to be truly God and all that it means to be truly man are perfectly unoted together in Christ, and it is that perfect union of God and man which is what our salvation *is*. That is why the early church defended christology so intensely, because christology *is* the Gospel.

When it comes to Christ's natures, it may be possible that we are coming from two different places with respect to the language that we use. Instead of saying that He has a human nature and a *spiritual* nature, we would simply say that He has a human nature and a *divine* nature. God is not "spirit" in the same sense that angela are "spirit".

When it comes to existence, there are two kinds: God, who is uncreated, and everything else, which is created. God is not like the angels or any other "spirit" creature. God's nature, while it is loosely referred to as "spirit", is unlike anything else.

Additionally, human nature itself, even apart from the Incarnation, is a union of the material and the spiritual. And since human nature is material and spiritual, that entire human nature is united to Divinity in Christ. Thus we can say that the God-man was in hades, because while His human body remained in the grave, His human spirit was still perfectly and completely united to Divinity.

Christ assumed our nature, truly becoming one of us, beginning the process of healing us from the power of sin and death. The only way to destroy death was for God Himself to fully enter into it. And when God entered into death, death was destroyed, just as darkness is destroyes when a light enters the room.

But death is not simply the fact that our bodies stop working. Death is the whole condition of being separated from God. As God is Life, the only life is in union and communion with Him. When we separate from Him, we no longer have real life. We, and all of creation, are decaying into lifeless oblivion, and we see that all throughout creation. By coming to us as one of us and entering into our condition, He filled our condition with Himself and began to unite us and all of creation unto Himself from the inside out.

Because He has come, we can now live in freedom from sin and decay and fear and we can come to know God and commune with Him.
 
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Knee V

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Additionally, all ways of expressing things about God and other eternal things are done so using human language. Human language has the limitation of being based in human experience, and as such is not truly capable of expressing anything that is not rooted in human experience.

God, and His nature and ways, is not part of our human experience. For God to communicate to us what He is like and how He acts is itself a condescension to our human weakness and limitations. As such, any way of talking about the precise nature of what Christ accomplished and how He accomplished it is beyond the realm of what we are capable of doing and understanding with our languages.

So what has done is expressed eternal realities in terms of things within the realm of our experience. For example, we know what wages are and we know what gifts are. So St Paul says that "the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life..." Is death actually a "wage"? No, but it is something from our experience that we understand, and it comea close. It is the same with other kinds of language: from our experience we understand light and darkness, sickness and health, lost and found, guilt and innocence, rich and poor, etc. All those examples from human experience are used throughout Scripture and by Christ Himself. But all of those examples fall short of truly and fully expressing God and our salvation, and we should not try to make any single example be *the* explanation.
 
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ArmyMatt

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we also reject the substitutionary atonement view because it puts the need for justice on God. His justice MUST be met. if His justice must be met, this puts justice above Him, and nothing is above Him and He has no needs.
 
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Cappadocious

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we also reject the substitutionary atonement view because it puts the need for justice on God. His justice MUST be met. if His justice must be met, this puts justice above Him, and nothing is above Him and He has no needs.
That depends on whether his justice is to demand punishment/suffering.

But, if his Justice demands a righteous man...
 
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Cappadocious

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Additionally, all ways of expressing things about God and other eternal things are done so using human language. Human language has the limitation of being based in human experience
Language and experience which God truly made his own, most perfectly in Christ.

If human language is good enough for God, it is good enough for us. We must be careful with the balance of apophaticism, lest we find ourselves in atheism. I believe St. Gregory Palamas took pains to make this point against some of the excessively-apophatic trends he encountered. One aspect of God is truly comprehensible, and another is truly incomprehensible.
 
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Knee V

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Language and experience which God truly made his own, most perfectly in Christ.

If human language is good enough for God, it is good enough for us. We must be careful with the balance of apophaticism, lest we find ourselves in atheism. I believe St. Gregory Palamas took pains to make this point against some of the excessively-apophatic trends he encountered. One aspect of God is truly comprehensible, and another is truly incomprehensible.

That is why God entered into our human experience, so that we could know Him by experience, even if our language can't fully describe the experience.
 
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ArmyMatt

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That depends on whether his justice is to demand punishment/suffering.

But, if his Justice demands a righteous man...

His justice demands nothing. He makes no demands of us. although He is just.
 
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Cappadocious

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His justice demands nothing. He makes no demands of us. although He is just.

Okay, if "demands" is a protestant scarequote word, how about "communicates wants for us"? God communicates his want to us to be righteous, which is just to be in communion with Himself and expressing that communion in our own persons.

As for "demands", though, I can be in a room with a person who asks nothing of me, and loves me for myself apart from any further imposed conditions; yet by virtue of their very person a certain demand is placed upon me, and I think this is quite worthy and just etc.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Okay, if "demands" is a protestant scarequote word, how about "communicates wants for us"? God communicates his want to us to be righteous, which is just to be in communion with Himself and expressing that communion in our own persons.

well it's not a scare quote, but there is a difference between God's justice demanding something, and what He communicates to us because of who He is. there is a difference
As for "demands", though, I can be in a room with a person who asks nothing of me, and loves me for myself apart from any further imposed conditions; yet by virtue of their very person a certain demand is placed upon me, and I think this is quite worthy and just etc.

I don't think a demand is placed on you at all in that scenario.
 
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You have never been in the presence of someone whose very person calls out to be venerated?

absolutely, but there were no demands. a conviction in my heart that I am in the presence of the holy is not a demand.
 
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