Ellen White discrepancies

Frenchfrye

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I am an Adventist but, I don't believe in Ellen White mainly because of a few of her writings are either false or out of sync with biblical teachings.

1. Testimonies for the Church, Volume 1, p. 259, that the United States would be "...humbled into the dust" by England during the Civil War.

2.Ellen G. White said people alive in 1856 would be translated at the 2nd coming of Jesus. (Testimonies, V1, p 131,132).

3."...if we subsist largely upon the flesh of dead animals, we shall partake of their nature". Counsels on Diet ..on p. 390
(I've also been shown where she says those who eat meat are unable to stand temptation. but I can't find it anymore)

I know that some Adventists talk of her as if she should be in the Holy Trinity, so I would like to know how the church explains these problems within her writing.
God Bless,
Jared Frye
 

Ubuntu

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We find plenty of difficulties and passages that often are labeled as 'discrepancies' in the Bible too... Should we be surprised that the authorship of a woman who wrote 5000 periodical articles, 40 books, and 50.000 manuscript pages, contains passages that we find difficult?

Could the real problem be that we use the writings of Ellen White in a way they were never meant to be used? After all, we Christians argue that 'failed' (i.e. unfulfilled) biblical prophecies are to be interpreted symbolically; why so sure that all of Ellen White's writings are to be interpreted literally in every single instance?
 
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JohnMarsten

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We find plenty of difficulties and passages that often are labeled as 'discrepancies' in the Bible too... Should we be surprised that the authorship of a woman who wrote 5000 periodical articles, 40 books, and 50.000 manuscript pages, contains passages that we find difficult?

Could the real problem be that we use the writings of Ellen White in a way they were never meant to be used? After all, we Christians argue that 'failed' (i.e. unfulfilled) biblical prophecies are to be interpreted symbolically; why so sure that all of Ellen White's writings are to be interpreted literally in every single instance?

Right we find discrepancies in the bible as well. However, the bible was written by many different people over periods of time and then translated into numerous languages...

EGWs writings are supposed to have originated from one person who wrote over a specific period of time. She claimed to have received that wisdom from the Lord and is regarded as the final interpreter of scripture. She is viewed as authority and many SDAs try to implement her writings into their lifes. EGW glasses are put on and all kinds of matters are viewed through them, even other people are frequently judged using her standards.

IMHO it is only natural to be critical if such high standards are claimed by a person. And if her writings are opposed to bible standards or facts, then why not speak up and address the issue?

I believe that the first thing in a christian life is the Truth. The Truth is Jesus! It is written in the bible that liars will not enter heaven. So living in Truth requires truthfulness and honesty, I guess. So why not speak up and address an issue that is seemingly problematic? Why not admit that what she wrote might be wrong? Why try vehemently bend the truth in order to make her writings fit?
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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Ellen White said that if there is a difference between the Bible and her writings, to go with the Bible... she recognized the Word as the only infallible guide.

Is it possible that while God did indeed use her as a lesser light to illuminate the greater, that there were writings given to test God's people on this point. As you said, there are many that are almost fanatical in there adherance and promotion of certain doctrines that are either not truly supported by the scriptures without a great deal of exegetical acrobatics, or are clearly contrary to the proof text method of scripture.

When people make diet a salvational issue, you have to dismiss it as there is no Biblical evidence for it... therefore those people are making an idol of sister Whites writings above the Word. The Bible does support her idea of temperance in food and drink but not of abstinance.
 
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JohnMarsten

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Ellen White said that if there is a difference between the Bible and her writings, to go with the Bible... she recognized the Word as the only infallible guide.

Is it possible that while God did indeed use her as a lesser light to illuminate the greater, that there were writings given to test God's people on this point. As you said, there are many that are almost fanatical in there adherance and promotion of certain doctrines that are either not truly supported by the scriptures without a great deal of exegetical acrobatics, or are clearly contrary to the proof text method of scripture.

When people make diet a salvational issue, you have to dismiss it as there is no Biblical evidence for it... therefore those people are making an idol of sister Whites writings above the Word. The Bible does support her idea of temperance in food and drink but not of abstinance.

Of course, she might have said that, could be. But then, as you already must have realized, we are diving into the realms of interpretation and possibilities. Maybe it was God's test for some people, maybe, but maybe not? This will lead to us to many ifs and buts and maybes. How can you create a situation of unity, when egws writing every so often are the source of dispute. Another test?

Btw, I dont think people are making an idol of her when they follow her writings, especially when it comes to meat eating and dieting in general.
Its all based on the present truth concept and the whole idea that God needed a special messenger for the present time who presents us with some present truth which is especially needed in our times, am I not right?

Once people accept this concept they will swallow everything and the well known phrase "sister white says" becomes the equivalent of "the bible says" or "God's word says", isnt that true?

With time it becomes increasingly difficult to question her authority and speak up in sda circles. People think they are probably wrong, I mean, who are they anyway compared to a real life prophet who was taken to heaven in vision and who knows where else.
 
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JohnMarsten

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Ellen White said that if there is a difference between the Bible and her writings, to go with the Bible... she recognized the Word as the only infallible guide.

Is it possible that while God did indeed use her as a lesser light to illuminate the greater, that there were writings given to test God's people on this point. As you said, there are many that are almost fanatical in there adherance and promotion of certain doctrines that are either not truly supported by the scriptures without a great deal of exegetical acrobatics, or are clearly contrary to the proof text method of scripture.

When people make diet a salvational issue, you have to dismiss it as there is no Biblical evidence for it... therefore those people are making an idol of sister Whites writings above the Word. The Bible does support her idea of temperance in food and drink but not of abstinance.

What is more

You are right the bible does not support her idea of abstinance. - Is she wrong on that?

Now have a closer look at it:

When somebody wants to join the SDA church, they will join the church through baptism - right?

While baptism is biblical indeed, it is not positively clear to me wether baptism can be regarded as a ceremony of joining a church - I could be wrong on this, though. To me it is more like a symbol of rebirth, the washing away of sins - probably still true in regard to SDA baptism - maybe the formal joinging of a church can be regarded as a natural byproduct after being baptised

So, after meeting with adventism one has theoretically two options, join the church after learning or accepting that it is the only true church remaining - the so-called remnant(church) - or deciding to be baptised as a sign of repentance for ones sins and giving their lifes to Jesus. Eventually one goes with the other.

However!!! - and this made me wonder a couple of times - baptism also includes certain baptismal vows. (I dont know too much about adult baptisms in other church, but the SDA certainly has them - I had to go through them myself).

If somebody wants to get baptised they have to go through a set of bible lessons - during which major SDA viewpoints are being explained.

During biblical times - I guess the church was not VERY organized yet it seems to me that accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior was sufficient to be saved - and baptised.

Before one can get baptisez 'into the SDA community', however, one has to agree with a set of SDA believes, the so-called vows. So one is asked if one agrees and I guess after all question have been answered positively one can proceed.

A general question would be: is this biblical at all? I mean, the bible doesnt really mention it (other than accepting Jesus Christ and again correct me if I am wrong on that).

Spontaneously two of these vows I would call rather odd.

One of them is accepting EGW as the spirit of prophecy. Hmmm... this seems a little bit extrabiblical - as we never find egw in the bible - and her given title of spirit of prophecy is based on some interpretion. Furthermore, the bible never speaks about accepting the spirit of prophecy before being baptised. - so at this point the person who wants to get baptised has to accept egw - no matter what - you cannot postpone that point like 'yes, I want to be baptised in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit' but egw I am not sure about - maybe never will - does it matter? - I think this will not work - in the SDA you cant have one without the other...

Another vow is the life in abstinance. While it is certainly good not to eat meat and not to drink wine, it is not a necessity. - A choice is given to God's people in the bible. The SDA (through egw I guess) takes away that choice making it a doctrine AND a requirement to proceed further towards baptism. So if somebody does not agree with this - and his disagreement is based on the bible - he is left with two choices, either cancel the whole baptism or agree to those vows but secretly remain confident in ones belief that abstinance is not required and that personal opinion on that topic is chief.

Now the latter point would be very disturbing to me as this would be premeditated lie - a vow that is one never plans on keeping. Thats weird. I understand that people can change their opinions. They made that vow but realized lateron that something was not right with it. But the other way round seems odd to me.

So accepting EGW is a major point in regard to baptism.

How can one accept those things? I mean how can stay true to your bible beliefs and still be baptised into the SDA community? - I guess you cannot!
 
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JohnMarsten

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another thing related to the abstinace vow!

It is not only limited to abstinance but also one has to pledge not to be involved in the production and selling of tobacco and alcohol.

In a certain way it is a logical step. If somebody believes that we should live an abstinant life then it would hypocritical to produce it, right?

Making money with alcohol would be bad as well, selling alcohol to people and getting rich on it, doesnt sound so good!

Once I heard about a young sda woman who was jobless for quite some time and was offered a job as a waitress in a hotel. THe family was quite upset and so was the whole congregation, they prayed that this young woman wouldnt accept this job.

Is that wrong as well? Serving some wine in a hotel? Or high level restaurant? - I mean I wouldnt want any woman work in a shady bar or night-club/strip club serving drinks to total drunkards, no matter if she is christian or not. But at a restaurant? - I am not convinced...

I guess working at a liquer store is out of the question - and rightly so.

But what about supermarkets? I mean they sell liquer, and tobacco. Can I work at a supermarket? - I mean what if I am not involved directly in the selling process?

BTW if I am not allowed to produce and/or sell alcohol tobacco (probably because it can all kill a man) can I be the owner of an adventist abortion clinic? I guess there are no adventist abortion clinics, I just heard that adventist hospitals perform abortions - slight difference here I guess. But what about an abortion clinic that is owned by an adventist? is that ok? I mean it is not found in those baptismal vows?

Shall we include it?
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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If i were the only person on earth that believed that Christ was the Son of God and that He died for my sins, would i need a denomination to gain salvation? Our salvation comes through Christ alone... everything else is man made and not neccesary or worthy of debate.

Do i believe that sister White was inspired?... absolutley, because she points to nothing other than Christ for our salvation.

Do i think she was infallible? no...
 
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ricker

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If i were the only person on earth that believed that Christ was the Son of God and that He died for my sins, would i need a denomination to gain salvation? Our salvation comes through Christ alone... everything else is man made and not neccesary or worthy of debate.

Do i believe that sister White was inspired?... absolutley, because she points to nothing other than Christ for our salvation.
Do i think she was infallible? no...

Are you sure about the underlined statement? If I can remember back to my SDA upbringing correctly she says worshipping on Sunday and working on Saturday and eating pork and many other things will cause us to lose our salvation. That is something other than salvation by grace through faith in Jesus.
 
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JohnMarsten

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If i were the only person on earth that believed that Christ was the Son of God and that He died for my sins, would i need a denomination to gain salvation? Our salvation comes through Christ alone... everything else is man made and not neccesary or worthy of debate.

Do i believe that sister White was inspired?... absolutley, because she points to nothing other than Christ for our salvation.

Do i think she was infallible? no...

Good point!

I never heard anybody claim that she was infallible. But what about her writings? - It is claimed that they were inspired, are they infallible?
 
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Ubuntu

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Good point!

I never heard anybody claim that she was infallible. But what about her writings? - It is claimed that they were inspired, are they infallible?

Believe me, sadly I know at least a couple of people who go very far when it comes to the way they use the writings of Ellen White. But perhaps we should let Ellen White herself answer your question? :)

"In regard to infallibility, I never claimed it; God alone is infallible. His word is true, and in Him is no variableness, or shadow of turning." —Letter 10, 1895. {1SM 37.4}

“God and heaven alone are infallible.”
—The Review and Herald, July 26, 1892.

"Let all prove their positions from the Scriptures and substantiate every point they claim from the revealed Word of God." - Ev. 256

At a general conference she told those who were present:

"Lay Sister White right to one side: lay her to one side. Don’t you never quote my words again as long as you live, until you can obey the Bible. When you take the Bible and make that your food, and your meat, and your drink, and make that the elements of your character, when you can do that you will know better how to receive some counsel from God. But here is the Word, the precious Word, exalted before you today. And don’t you give a rap any more what “Sister White said” — “Sister White said this,” and “Sister White said that,” and “Sister White said the other thing.” But say, “Thus saith the Lord God of Israel,” and then you do just what the Lord God of Israel does, and what he says." - SpM 167.2

I strongly doubt that Ellen White would have approved of the way that both conservatives and liberals have used her writings. She is no authority on historical, scientific or theological matters, she was a messenger inspired to give people encouragements and reproof. (For instance, some of her books were revised, and some passages that were somewhat historically inaccurate, were corrected with her approval.)

She never placed her own writings on the same level as the Bible, yet it's also wrong to assume that her writings merely are for edification, she was without a doubt someone who was driven by the Spirit of God in a special way.

For more detailed information I recommend: Believe His Prophets - Ellen G. White's Attitude Toward Her Own Writings
 
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JohnMarsten

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really awkward situation then... in a way you cannot trust any of her writings because you dont know if it was inspired or not, can an inspired writing be fallible? can a prophecy from God fail? if it can then it is hard to put your trust in her writings or in other words everything becomes relative and turns into a tool in the hands of (wicked)men.
 
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Ubuntu

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really awkward situation then... in a way you cannot trust any of her writings because you dont know if it was inspired or not, can an inspired writing be fallible? can a prophecy from God fail? if it can then it is hard to put your trust in her writings or in other words everything becomes relative and turns into a tool in the hands of (wicked)men.

First of all, you cannot divide her writings into two categories, “inspired” and “uninspired”, that's not how it works. Some persons were inspired, but even inspired humans weren't infallible.

Secondly (and this applies to the bible as well), a statement can perfectly well be “faulty” in one way or another, and yet be "inspired". For instance, Moses talks about insects having four legs, but actually insects have six legs. The Bible is naturally not a work about the nuances of insectology, and people who think this is a problem would have to have a pretty distorted view about the nature of the Bible. The Bible is a blend of the human and the divine, and as such it contains human imperfections, but as the word of God it is infallible. The nature of inspiration is in fact a great mystery, I don't think we ever will comprehend this completely.

I don't think there is any reason at all to be afraid of “relativity” when it comes to the Bible (and EGW). It's merely a question about knowing how to use inspired writings. None of God's promises will ever fail, the problem is that our intellects are limited and that we fail to fathom the depths of the inspired scriptures.

Finally, most people don't realize this, but we face essentially the same hermeneutic challenges in relation to many passages in the Old Testament, as we do regarding the writings of Ellen White. Many perplexities would have been avoided if we had learned from the way the apostles interpreted the OT.

“And we speak about these things, not with words taught us by human wisdom, but with those taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual things to spiritual people.“ - 1 Corinthians 2:13
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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really awkward situation then... in a way you cannot trust any of her writings because you dont know if it was inspired or not, can an inspired writing be fallible? can a prophecy from God fail? if it can then it is hard to put your trust in her writings or in other words everything becomes relative and turns into a tool in the hands of (wicked)men.

If you had of bothered to read the article linked by Ubuntu you wouldn't have made the above statement. It was clear in the article what the definition of inspired was and how she regarded her testimonies.

Btw, thank you Ubuntu for posting that, we are going to read it at our nightly fellowship tonight.
 
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JohnMarsten

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If you had of bothered to read the article linked by Ubuntu you wouldn't have made the above statement. It was clear in the article what the definition of inspired was and how she regarded her testimonies.

Btw, thank you Ubuntu for posting that, we are going to read it at our nightly fellowship tonight.

could be, didnt have time for it yet (no internet at home!)
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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2 Peter 3:3
Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts

The word translated "scoffer" can mean "one who mocks, ridicules, or scorns the belief of another." In Hebrew, the word translated "scoffer" or "mocker" can also mean "ambassador." So a scoffer is one who not only disagrees with an idea, but he also considers himself an ambassador for the opposing idea. He cannot rest until he has demonstrated the foolishness of any idea not his own. A scoffer voices his disagreement, ridicules all who stand against him, and actively recruits others to join his side.

 
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JohnMarsten

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2 Peter 3:3
Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts

The word translated "scoffer" can mean "one who mocks, ridicules, or scorns the belief of another." In Hebrew, the word translated "scoffer" or "mocker" can also mean "ambassador." So a scoffer is one who not only disagrees with an idea, but he also considers himself an ambassador for the opposing idea. He cannot rest until he has demonstrated the foolishness of any idea not his own. A scoffer voices his disagreement, ridicules all who stand against him, and actively recruits others to join his side.


Good point! We should all be aware of those scoffers.

In what way does this apply to this thread btw?
 
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Good point! We should all be aware of those scoffers.

In what way does this apply to this thread btw?

In reference to you John... you have been coming into this forum and scoffing for quite a while now.

If you don't believe the tenets of traditional Adventism, including the writings of sister white, then why do you persist in posting here your variances and strifes against our belief?
 
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