Women and Religion

Jane_the_Bane

Gaia's godchild
Feb 11, 2004
19,359
3,426
✟168,333.00
Faith
Pagan
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
Politics
UK-Greens
Cloning is possible with only females. Even without cloning, a hen house needs only one rooster, which makes each female, person for person, more valuable to a species than each male.
that's not how the ancients saw it, though. Throughout the agrarian age, the female part in reproduction was conceived as akin to that of a field or an oven : merely a receptacle for the seed to grow in.
 
Upvote 0

Tobias

Relationship over Religion
Jan 8, 2004
3,734
482
California
✟21,764.00
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Private
How equal are we talking about here?

Like: if men are allowed to go shirtless on hot days and at swimming parties, then women should get to do it too? Or, should men be permitted to wear dresses and such, because women do it?

What does total equality of the sexes look like? If a religion has different roles for men and women, then by default, is that inequality?
 
Upvote 0

Jane_the_Bane

Gaia's godchild
Feb 11, 2004
19,359
3,426
✟168,333.00
Faith
Pagan
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
Politics
UK-Greens
How equal are we talking about here?

Like: if men are allowed to go shirtless on hot days and at swimming parties, then women should get to do it too? Or, should men be permitted to wear dresses and such, because women do it?

What does total equality of the sexes look like? If a religion has different roles for men and women, then by default, is that inequality?

What is conceived as "female" or " male" garb is utterly arbitrary, as is the tabooization of specific body parts. Many African cultures see nothing sexual or inappropriate in bare breasts, yet would gasp in shock at what looks like a conservative business dress to us because it exposes the calves.

And yes, I'd describe any world view that tries to assign narrow roles based on the aspect of gender as sexist, because our biological sex is not a factor that should limit our options in life.
 
Upvote 0

elephunky

Previously known as dgirl1986
Nov 28, 2007
5,497
203
Perth, Western Australia
✟14,441.00
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
AU-Greens
Do you believe that men and women are equal, and should be treated as such? Then congratulations - you are a feminist.

Seriously, that's the only requirement needed to qualify.

I never considered myself a feminist because I was always going on about equality for all agendas. Then I got debated on a forum about it. Now I recognise that I am a feminist. I do not advertise it though, people think of the radical man haters.
 
Upvote 0

EnemyOfReason

Well-Known Member
May 22, 2013
1,198
80
✟9,335.00
Faith
Pagan
Marital Status
In Relationship
I consider women superior for two reasons. They carry the child, 2nd, they are more emotional. These two aspects I feel make them superior to men.

To an asexual that understands philosophy this sounds like a nightmare.

Emotions make for poor judgement
 
Upvote 0

EnemyOfReason

Well-Known Member
May 22, 2013
1,198
80
✟9,335.00
Faith
Pagan
Marital Status
In Relationship
I personally think women have too many rights. America needs to bring back feme covert and start restricting women to marital duties and house work. Also why on earth are they owning property and voting. Whose idea was it to let them engage in politics knowing they will only want to ban men's rights!
DAFT I say DAFT!!! America has become an unjust nation by letting women remain independent.
As Al Bundy once said, "Never try to understand women". We must instead oppress them!


Also do not quote me on any portion of this rant :D
 
Upvote 0
Jan 25, 2013
3,501
476
✟58,740.00
Faith
Muslim
Marital Status
Private
I think LoveTobeMuslim has a better response....

No, no, he was giving the linguistic angle.

So women in Islam can't uncover her hair?

We can...we're just not allowed to in front of people who aren't allowed to see it (exactly how men are not allowed to uncover what they're supposed to cover in front of people who aren't allowed to see it).

Read Numbers 27 carefully:

How is that different to what I'm saying? It says that inheritance shall be passed on to the daughter if a man dies and has no sons.

Tradition is not the official teachings.

1.) I did mention Christian world in the first post you responded to.

2.) As for a woman's possessions, according to these link, I think the Talmud teaches that it is actually the husband's:

"But how can his mother possess aught, seeing that whatever a woman acquires belongs to her husband?"

http://www.come-and-hear.com/sanhedrin/sanhedrin_71.html

R. JUDAH STATED: THE SAGES ARGUED BEFORE R. GAMALIEL, 'SINCE THE MAN3 GAINS POSSESSION OF THE WOMAN DOES HE NOT ALSO GAIN POSSESSION OF HER PROPERTY?'

http://www.come-and-hear.com/kethuboth/kethuboth_78.html#chapter_viii

Now, I don't know what authority, if any, the Talmud has on Christians (e.g. do you believe the understanding of those who wrote it is accurate or false?)...but there it is.

Where is the quote that only women can be accused of adultery? I remember the Torah said if caught adultery, both man and woman will be stoned.

Sorry, my fault. The man (other than her husband) who is caught committing adultery with the married woman will be punished along with the woman for adultery. However, a married man having sex outside of his marriage is not guilty of adultery.

But the ancient Jewish law, as well as other systems of law which grew out of a patriarchal state of society, does not recognize the husband's infidelity to his marriage vows as a crime, and it was not until comparatively recent times that the woman was legally entitled to enforce her husband's faithfulness, and was given the right to demand a bill of divorce for his sexual immorality (Isserles on "Eben ha-'Ezer," § 154, 1).

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/865-adultery

In Islam, a man need to say divoce 3 times to divoce, but it is much harder for woman.
Divorce in Islam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A man just needs to give a divorce once to be divorced, the 3x thing is concerning an irrevocable divorce after which the man and woman cannot get married again (unless the woman gets married to another man but then the man dies or they divorce after the marriage is consummated).

It's not much harder for the woman to obtain a divorce Islaam though Muslims, especially in more "cultural" (not necessarily Islaamic) areas, may make it difficult. It's not supposed to be. If the husband refuses to give her a divorce, then she should take it to the Muslim judge/authority and, if the marriage cannot be reconciled, then the Muslim judge can grant her the divorce. See how easy it was during the time of the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him):

The wife of Thaabit ibn Qays ibn Shammaas (may Allaah be pleased with him) came to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and said, “O Messenger of Allaah, I do not find any fault with Thaabit ibn Qays in his character or his religious commitment, but I do not want to commit any act of kufr after becoming a Muslim.” The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said to her, “Will you give back his garden?” Because he had given her a garden as her dowry. She said, “Yes.” The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said to Thaabit: “Take back your garden, and divorce her.” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 5273).


As I said, God's standard of adultery is high. You don't even need to have sex to commit adultery. God knows the evil in heart, even if you think of adultery it is adultery.

Allaah has forgiven what crosses our minds so long as we do not act on it (or dwell on those sinful thoughts without trying to shun them).

If that is the case then I will consider Islam is fair to women at least in the after life (i.e. woman can also get multiples of beautiful eyes or man).

When I say equal in magnitude, it does not necessarily mean they'll get the exact same thing...but they'll get things that are just as rewarding to them and make them just as happy. In other words, Allaah is Just and Merciful.

However I consider Jesus's word the word from God:
When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven (Mark 12:25)

We don't believe humans become angels. Humans remain humans (though we believe that humans can be superior to angels through knowledge & piety since the angels were commanded to prostrate to Adam peace be upon them all).

In any case:

Allaah has promised to the believing men and women gardens beneath which rivers flow to dwell therein forever, and beautiful mansions in Gardens of 'Adn (Eden Paradise). But the greatest bliss is the Good Pleasure of Allaah. That is the supreme success.
(Surah at-Tawbah 9:72)
 
Upvote 0

dcalling

Senior Member
Jan 31, 2014
3,184
323
✟107,345.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
The quotes are broken again so here are my responses.

1. Did Quran said women should cover their hair or just haidth?
2. I found a link where a Jewish Rabi explained how the daughters can have inheritances by ways of a gift, so pretty much the father decides how inheritances are distributed, almost like modern will :)
3. Jesus has already explained that sin committed in mind is also sin:
But I Say To You That Everyone Who Looks At A Woman With Lust For Her Has Already Committed Adultery With Her In His Heart. (Matthew 5:28)

Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him. (John 3:15)

As you can see God is very strict. God might forgive your sin, but sin is sin.

4. Jesus didn't say we will became angels. He said we will became like angels.
When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.(Mark 12:25).

It make sense since sexual desires are very primitive, there is no place for this in heaven. All spirits in heaven are pure and without sin, there is no tempts, sexual nor money nor power.
 
Upvote 0
Jan 25, 2013
3,501
476
✟58,740.00
Faith
Muslim
Marital Status
Private
1. Did Quran said women should cover their hair or just haidth?

Why does it matter where it is if it is a commandment from Allaah?

2. I found a link where a Jewish Rabi explained how the daughters can have inheritances by ways of a gift, so pretty much the father decides how inheritances are distributed, almost like modern will :)
How does this change what I was saying that his son(s) receives all of the inheritance after he dies and the daughter(s) gets none (if nothing was gifted)?

3. Jesus has already explained that sin committed in mind is also sin:
But I Say To You That Everyone Who Looks At A Woman With Lust For Her Has Already Committed Adultery With Her In His Heart. (Matthew 5:28)
So not only is Christianity impractical when it comes to pacifism (look at the results the complete lack of guidelines for war produced), it's also needlessly harsh on what constitutes an action of the limbs on something other than faith/disbelief (if I am correct in understanding you that adultery of the eyes/mind/heart is just as bad as actual adultery where actual penetration takes place).

It make sense since sexual desires are very primitive, there is no place for this in heaven. All spirits in heaven are pure and without sin, there is no tempts, sexual nor money nor power.
Says who?

Intimacy is not a sin in Islaam unless it is done with someone not permissible for a person. I don't see why love, intimacy, and companionship between people who are permitted to engage in such actions are seen as primitive by you. Why wouldn't a man who is deeply in love with his wife (and vice versa) be deeply thrilled when he learns that he gets to spend eternity with his wife in a place where there will not be any ill-thoughts, bad speech, or evil deeds?

FYI:

Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure (thesauros) in heaven. Then come, follow me." Matthew 19:21
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

gord44

Well-Known Member
Nov 4, 2004
4,352
658
✟27,716.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I think the ultimate ideal is a complete equality between women and men. If put in equal roles they can play off of each others strengths and weaknesses.

I liked Crowley's idea of the Aeons. The first Aeon was feminine. The last Aeon was masculine and we are just coming out of it. The current or next Aeon is self realization or the child between the feminine and masculine which is equal.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Hetta

I'll find my way home
Jun 21, 2012
16,925
4,875
the here and now
✟64,923.00
Country
France
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Married
Question - does your religion or faith path hold women in the same kind of view as islam and christianity (back seat roles) or are women more empowered and on equal playing field with men?

Definitely a back seat, but you don't have to take that back seat. I don't. :)
 
Upvote 0

Hetta

I'll find my way home
Jun 21, 2012
16,925
4,875
the here and now
✟64,923.00
Country
France
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Married
I've recently came to Islam again but in my opinion, women are better then men and superior, special as they manifest the names of Allah, Ar-Rahman (The Compassionate), Ar-Raheem (The Merciful) -AlWadood (The loving) more.
I consider women superior for two reasons. They carry the child, 2nd, they are more emotional. These two aspects I feel make them superior to men.
No no no no no. A million times no. No superiority, no "better than" - equal only.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Hetta

I'll find my way home
Jun 21, 2012
16,925
4,875
the here and now
✟64,923.00
Country
France
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Married
I personally think women have too many rights. America needs to bring back feme covert and start restricting women to marital duties and house work. Also why on earth are they owning property and voting. Whose idea was it to let them engage in politics knowing they will only want to ban men's rights!
DAFT I say DAFT!!! America has become an unjust nation by letting women remain independent.
As Al Bundy once said, "Never try to understand women". We must instead oppress them!


Also do not quote me on any portion of this rant :D

Man, you had me there for a minute. :destroyed:
 
Upvote 0

dcalling

Senior Member
Jan 31, 2014
3,184
323
✟107,345.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Why does it matter where it is if it is a commandment from Allaah?

Command of God is more important than what Muhammad's own sayings. Do you hold Muhammad on the same level as God? That is why it matters.

How does this change what I was saying that his son(s) receives all of the inheritance after he dies and the daughter(s) gets none (if nothing was gifted)?

In modern inheritance system, parent's will trumps everything else. It is more important to respect the parent's wish instead of a static law, becaue there can be many actual situations (i.e. one of the heir is addicted to gambling).

So not only is Christianity impractical when it comes to pacifism (look at the results the complete lack of guidelines for war produced), it's also needlessly harsh on what constitutes an action of the limbs on something other than faith/disbelief (if I am correct in understanding you that adultery of the eyes/mind/heart is just as bad as actual adultery where actual penetration takes place).

That is the word of God, not mine. Jesus' saying simply shows how strict God's standard is, your desire to commit adultery is looking badly by God. Wither they are of same level or not is determined by God, not by us.

Says who?

Intimacy is not a sin in Islaam unless it is done with someone not permissible for a person. I don't see why love, intimacy, and companionship between people who are permitted to engage in such actions are seen as primitive by you. Why wouldn't a man who is deeply in love with his wife (and vice versa) be deeply thrilled when he learns that he gets to spend eternity with his wife in a place where there will not be any ill-thoughts, bad speech, or evil deeds?

It is the word of God, that in heaven we are like Angels, no marriage. Intimacy is not a sin, it is just not needed in heaven any more. You don't need to sweat in heaven.

FYI:

Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure (thesauros) in heaven. Then come, follow me." Matthew 19:21

That is also the word of God. It show how hard it is to meet God's standards and go to heaven. Without the grace of God none of us meet that standard.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums