The Wisdom of the Wise will Vanish

keras · Nov 12, 2014

The Wisdom of the Wise will Vanish. Isaiah 29:14, 1 Cor. 1:19-21
That this prophecy is true today, is proved by the almost total lack of understanding of God’s plans for our future by Christians and by the proliferation of theories, ideas and pure fiction about end times events. Also, as is prophesied in Isaiah 29:9, those who believe false teachings will become locked into them and be unable to discern or comprehend the truth of what will happen. 2 Thess. 2:11
The Lord says: I frustrate false prophets and make fools of diviners. I reverse what wise men say and make nonsense of their wisdom. Isaiah 44:25, Romans 1:22
Jesus says: I thank You Father for hiding these truths from the learned and wise and revealing them to the simple. Matthew 11:25-26, 1 John 4:4-5
Daniel is told: Keep these words secret and seal them up until the time of the end…only a few wise leaders will understand. Jeremiah 23:20
From the above Bible quotes, we see that there are two types of ‘wise’ people. Those who promote theories, ideas and doctrines that are not fully supported by scripture and those few who search all the prophesies and discern the truth of the end time events.
Here are some of the theories, ideas and fanciful notions that abound today:
1/ The Return of Jesus is the next event. This is totally refuted by 2 Thess. 2:1-4
2/ The wrath of God all happens at the Return. To move the Sixth Seal – stated to be the wrath of God and the Lamb, means shuffling the given sequence of Revelation. The Wrath of God, the Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, His coming IN the clouds, Psalm 18:7-15, Hab. 3:4 is described quite differently and happens years before the Return ON the clouds. Matthew 24:30, Rev 19:11
3/ The ‘rapture’. A removal of Christians to heaven before the Day of Wrath. Nowhere in the Bible is it stated that at any time, alive or dead, will any humans go to live in heaven. John 3:13 We are earth creatures and as believers in God and Jesus, we have work to do on earth, our destiny is to be ‘a light to the nations’. Isaiah 42:6
4/ The Jews are Gods chosen people. To say this not only abrogates the redemptive work of Jesus for all mankind, but also ignores God’s promises to the Patriarchs and His plan for all the Israelites, whom He watches and cares for. Jer. 16:17, Amos 9:9
5/ There will be a World War 3. Or an economic meltdown, or some other man caused problem will trigger the end time events. It is prophesied over 70 times that the Lord will send a judgement/punishment of fire to destroy His enemies. Isaiah 30:25-28, Malachi 4:1&3, Matthew 3:12
6/ Preterism. The belief that all the prophesies are fulfilled or abrogated by Christ. They deny the historical facts, refute Nahum 1:1 and all the yet to be fulfilled prophesies. Psalm 110:5-6, Matthew 3:12, Revelation 1:1
7/ Revival must come first. Actually this is correct, but that revival will be instigated by the 144,000, Rev 14:1-7. They will go out from New Israel in pairs, as the precedent in Luke 10.
8/ The lack of teaching on the Prophetic Word. Preachers shy away from any mention of prophecy and judgement, so the people have no real knowledge of end time events.
9/ The need to avoid the ‘mark of the beast’. Rev 13:16-17 But Rev. 7 tells us God’s servants are marked with ‘the seal of God’. God’s people, ‘from every tribe, nation and language’ are gathered in the holy Land, the new nation of Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5
10/ Apathy. The sheer carelessness and laziness of not attempting or trying to understand what a large proportion of the Bible is informing us. Deut. 32:28-29, 2 Peter 1:19

For now, as we are in the Church age, Ezekiel 14:1-10 applies. This passage says if the Israelites, that is: the Lord’s people, ‘set their hearts on sinful things, then the Lord will give to them the beliefs they desire’. So anyone who wishes to avoid God’s wrath by ‘going to heaven’, or want to think nothing much is yet to happen, then the Lord will allow them to believe that and it will make an understanding of the truth difficult for them. Jeremiah 6:10
logostelos

parousia70 · Nov 13, 2014

keras said:
For now, as we are in the Church age, Ezekiel 14:1-10 applies.

When do you say the Church age began?
What event do you point to as it's beginning?

vinsight4u · Nov 13, 2014

ebedmelech · Nov 13, 2014

It's really easy to refute what Keras is saying here!

Start with Romans 9:6-8
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.”
8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Paul explained this earlier in Romans 4 when he said at 4:9-12
9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, “Faith was credited to Abraham as righteousness.”
10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised;
11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them,
12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised.

Notice how Paul draws A LINE IN THE SAND, making sure we understand that circumcision was A SIGN of ALL who have faith.

This is where the true error of thinking it's about a fleshly Israel comes in. Abraham is the FATHER of ALL WHO BELIEVE...and that shifts the focus of who Abraham's children really are!!!

Jesus made this point in John 8:39 when He said to the Pharisees:
39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus *said to them, “If you are Abraham’s children, do the deeds of Abraham.

Notice how clear Jesus made it that because they didn't do as Abraham did they ARE NOT children of Abraham!!!

Abraham's true children are children of faith in Christ, which is a spiritual matter! Keras says the Jews are God's "chosen people"...BUT Paul shows in Ephesians 1:3-6 tellas us WHO THE CHOSEN ARE:
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

The mistake made here is NOT understanding the New Covenant. Jews were chosen under the Old Covenant as God's people. Under the New Covenant, God's people are ALL WHO HAVE FAITH IN CHRIST!

keras · Nov 13, 2014

parousia70 said:
When do you say the Church age began?
What event do you point to as it's beginning?

The Church age began at Pentecost. Acts:1-47

Ebed, you prove your lack of understanding when you post arguments that don't address the main point of the OP.

Then you say totally incorrect statements like this:
Quote Ebed: Jesus made this point in John 8:39 when He said to the Pharisees:
39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus *said to them, “If you are Abraham’s children, do the deeds of Abraham.

Notice how clear Jesus made it that because they didn't do as Abraham did they ARE NOT children of Abraham!!! End of quote.
John 8:37 Jesus said: I know that you Pharisee's are descended from Abraham.... His point was, they should be righteous, as Abraham was.
Ebed's lack of Bible exegesis exposed again!

ebedmelech · Nov 13, 2014

keras said:
The Church age began at Pentecost. Acts:1-47

Ebed, you prove your lack of understanding when you post arguments that don't address the main point of the OP.

Because it's flawed when it states the Jews are God's chosen people. That makes the whole premise flawed.

keras said:
Then you say totally incorrect statements like this:
Quote Ebed: Jesus made this point in John 8:39 when He said to the Pharisees:
39 They answered and said to Him, Abraham is our father. Jesus *said to them, If you are Abrahams children, do the deeds of Abraham.

Notice how clear Jesus made it that because they didn't do as Abraham did they ARE NOT children of Abraham!!! End of quote.
John 8:37 Jesus said: I know that you Pharisee's are descended from Abraham.... His point was, they should be righteous, as Abraham was.
Ebed's lack of Bible exegesis exposed again!

No...once again it complies totally with Romans 4...which exposes your ISOGESIS! Romans 4:9-12

Romans 4
9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, Faith was credited to Abraham as righteousness.
10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised;
11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them,
12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised.

Once again Keras...God's people are Abraham's seed spiritually. Galatians 3:29:
29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abrahams descendants, heirs according to promise.

Are you noticing Keras, how you run from the passages that expose your teaching?

vinsight4u · Nov 13, 2014

keras · Nov 13, 2014

Ebed, the truth is that the Lord's people are spiritual heirs of the Promise to Abraham and it is likely that the greatest proportion of them are actual descendants of Abraham. This will be so as the fulfil God's promises to the Patriarchs. Psalm 105:7-11
What I have noticed, is your failure to properly read what I do say. You think I say the Jews are God's chosen people? Please, pretty please, read my OP again without your nasty glasses on!

Sorry, vinsight4u, I do not see it necessary, or good for my salvation, to shuffle the given sequence of Revelation.
The 'magnus thlipsis' in Rev 7:14, usually translated as 'great tribulation' is 'great ordeal' in my REB Bible, which is more correct as it refers to the previous event, namely the Sixth Seal. NOT the actual Great Tribulation of the Trumpets and Bowls that come after the Anti-Christ has desecrated the Temple.

ebedmelech · Nov 13, 2014

keras said:
Ebed, the truth is that the Lord's people are spiritual heirs of the Promise to Abraham and it is likely that the greatest proportion of them are actual descendants of Abraham. This will be so as the fulfil God's promises to the Patriarchs. Psalm 105:7-11
What I have noticed, is your failure to properly read what I do say. You think I say the Jews are God's chosen people? Please, pretty please, read my OP again without your nasty glasses on!

No. The fact is you cannot accept the fact that under the New Covenant God's people are ALL who have the faith of Abraham.

This links to what Jesus told the woman at the well as she thought earthly Jerusalem meant something as a place to worship. Jesus put that to rest... John 4:19-24
19 The woman *said to Him, Sir, I perceive that You are a prophet.
20 Our fathers worshiped in this mountain, and you people say that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
21 Jesus *said to her, Woman, believe Me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father.
22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews.
23 But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.
24 God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.

Keep thinking Israel and Jerusalem here on earth are significant...THEY AREN'T.

Salvation came through the Jews because Jesus is the promised Messiah...after Christ was raised it's a New Covenant, that you love to mix with the Old Covenant...NOT SO!

No nasty glasses here...I stand with scripture against erroneous eschatology such as that you hold to Keras.

Open your eyes!

Rev20 · Nov 14, 2014

keras said:
The Wisdom of the Wise will Vanish. Isaiah 29:14, 1 Cor. 1:19-21
That this prophecy is true today, is proved by the almost total lack of understanding of God’s plans for our future by Christians and by the proliferation of theories, ideas and pure fiction about end times events.

I assume you are talking about your own doctrine, Keras.
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keras said:
The Jews are Gods chosen people. To say this not only abrogates the redemptive work of Jesus for all mankind, but also ignores God’s promises to the Patriarchs and His plan for all the Israelites, whom He watches and cares for. Jer. 16:17, Amos 9:9

You are absolutely correct, Keras. And to know who actually were chosen, we must first understand these words of Wisdom by Christ:

"For many are called, but few are chosen." -- Matt 22:14

Early on Moses relayed this promise to the children of Israel:

"And now if ye will indeed hear my voice, and keep my covenant, ye shall be to me a peculiar people above all nations; for the whole earth is mine. And ye shall be to me a royal priesthood and a holy nation: these words shalt thou speak to the children of Israel." -- Exo 19:5-6 LXX

But notice the conditions! The Lord stated that Israel must be obedient to Him to receive the promise. Later, Moses relayed this similar promise:

"For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people: But because the Lord loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers . . ." -- Deu 7:6-8

These are his conditions, which are the same as before:

"Thou shalt therefore keep the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which I command thee this day, to do them. Wherefore it shall come to pass, if ye hearken to these judgments, and keep, and do them, that the Lord thy God shall keep unto thee the covenant and the mercy which he sware unto thy fathers:" -- Deu 7:11-12

So, the promises, including being one of the chosen people, are strictly conditional on obedience.

The Lord promised this to the disobedient:

"Know therefore that the Lord thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations; And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face. " -- Deu 7:9-10

"And it shall be, if thou do at all forget the Lord thy God, and walk after other gods, and serve them, and worship them, I testify against you this day that ye shall surely perish. As the nations which the Lord destroyeth before your face, so shall ye perish; because ye would not be obedient unto the voice of the Lord your God." -- Deu 8:19-20

The Lord placed similar conditions on the land: that Israel would be removed from the land, and destroyed, if they were disobedient. I have not read anywhere that the Lord has revoked the promise to destroy those who are disobedient.

But what about the promises from Exodus 19 and Deuteronomy 7, above? They were fulfilled in the days of Christ:

"But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;" -- 1Pet 2:9

That was the faithful remnant of Israel: the "few who were chosen," out of the many who were called. Those were the earliest Christians: the faithful servants of Christ who established his Church. They are the royal priesthood, the holy nation, and the chosen people; and they are all Israel, and there are no other chosen people.
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keras said:
For now, as we are in the Church age . . .

Do you ever read the New Testament, Keras? The "Church Age" is a man-made invention. The Church, created by God as a bride for Christ, lasts forever:

"Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen." -- Eph 3:21

And why would anyone think otherwise, since Christ gave his life for the Church:

"Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;" -- Eph 5:25

Rev20 · Nov 14, 2014

keras said:
The Jews are Gods chosen people. To say this not only abrogates the redemptive work of Jesus for all mankind, but also ignores Gods promises to the Patriarchs and His plan for all the Israelites, whom He watches and cares for. Jer. 16:17, Amos 9:9

Keras, I forgot to mention this in my previous post; but it appears you are misinterpreting Amos 9:9 by ignoring the context:

"Are ye not as children of the Ethiopians unto me, O children of Israel? saith the Lord. Have not I brought up Israel out of the land of Egypt? and the Philistines from Caphtor, and the Syrians from Kir? Behold, the eyes of the Lord God are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth; saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith the Lord. For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth. All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, which say, The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us." -- Amos 9:7-10

By ignoring the context, Keras, you are implying that not a single Israelite will perish, which is not what the Lord prophesied, or what he fulfilled. That passage is like the parable of the tares and the wheat, where the bad plants are destroyed, after being separated from the good. The "grains" (the good ones) survive the sifting. The rest is destroyed. I strongly recommend you read this next passage about a gazillion times, or until you understand it, and Amos 9:9:

"Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha." -- Rom 9:27-29

That fulfilled these prophecies by Isaiah:

"For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness." -- Isa 10:22

"Except the Lord of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah." -- Isa 1:9

That remnant was the Elect; the ones God foreknew; the ones God did not cast away; the royal priesthood; the holy nation; the chosen people; the natural branches; the true commonwealth of Israel; and, the early Church.

keras · Nov 14, 2014

Rev20, I try to keep posts reasonably short and with scripture references, I expect people to study the context.
I am well award that only a remnant will be saved, but as the Israelites [all 12 tribes] are 'numbered as the sands of the sea' and that could be millions. Ezekiel 20:34-38

You can believe, for whatever reason, that these prophesies were fulfilled, but I do not because the plans of God for His people are yet to come to fruition. The last days before the Return will be very interesting; very soon now!

Interplanner · Nov 14, 2014

The millions are that way by faith. The apostles told us he wasn't speaking genetically.

Rev20 · Nov 14, 2014

keras said:
Rev20, I try to keep posts reasonably short and with scripture references, I expect people to study the context.

My point was, and is, you took it out of context.

keras said:
I am well award that only a remnant will be saved, but as the Israelites [all 12 tribes] are 'numbered as the sands of the sea' and that could be millions. Ezekiel 20:34-38

The phrase "sand of the sea" is a metaphor denoting a large number. For example, in these passages we have corn and camels in numbers as the "sand of the sea:"

"And Joseph gathered corn as the sand of the sea, very much, until he left numbering; for it was without number." -- Gen 41:49

"And the Midianites and the Amalekites and all the children of the east lay along in the valley like grasshoppers for multitude; and their camels were without number, as the sand by the sea side for multitude." -- Jud 7:12

That is a lot of camels, and corn! LOL!

Another way the Lord denotes a large number is with this metaphor:

"The Lord your God hath multiplied you, and, behold, ye are this day as the stars of heaven for multitude." -- Deu 1:10

So, as early as the days of Moses, the children of Israel numbered as the stars of heaven.

The prophesies of Isaiah implied the children of Israel numbered as the sand of the sea before it went into captivity; and only a very small remnant returned from captivity.

"Except the Lord of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah." -- Isa 1:9

"For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: . . " -- Isa 10:22

In other words, very few of those who went into captivity actually returned, but some did, as prophesied. Those passages cannot be that difficult to understand.

Jeremiah stated that the widows of the men of Judah (those men slain or who otherwise died in lieu of being taken into captivity) numbered more than the sand of the sea:

"And it shall come to pass, if they say unto thee, Whither shall we go forth? then thou shalt tell them, Thus saith the Lord; Such as are for death, to death; and such as are for the sword, to the sword; and such as are for the famine, to the famine; and such as are for the captivity, to the captivity. . . Their widows are increased to me above the sand of the seas: I have brought upon them against the mother of the young men a spoiler at noonday: I have caused him to fall upon it suddenly, and terrors upon the city." -- Jer 15:2, 8

keras said:
You can believe, for whatever reason, that these prophesies were fulfilled, but I do not because the plans of God for His people are yet to come to fruition. The last days before the Return will be very interesting; very soon now!

Dispensationalists have plagued Christianity with one false prophecy after another in recent decades. As it turned out, they didn't have a clue. They were deceived by their own doctrine, to be kind; or they deceived others with their doctrine and made boat-loads of money in the process.

How do you know it will be very soon? Do you know something they didn't?

What do you mean by "very soon?" Two-thousand years? That is the way you have defined the word "shortly?"

keras · Nov 15, 2014

Rev20, the context of Amos 9, is the restoration of Israel - that includes the rebuilding of David's house; his line of descendants, and they may possess what is left of Edom. This has not happened yet. If you believe it has, that is your prerogative, but I and many others consider it will be fulfilled in the future.

'sands of the sea' does denote a large number, perhaps billions, that is my point, a 'remnant' could be millions.

I am not a 'dispensationalist', I simply present Bible prophecy for all to see. If you, as in the OP, can't see what the prophets are trying to tell us, then you can expect the end time events to 'come upon you like a thief'.
I believe that time is now upon us, just from the world situation, but Bible prophecy is my main proof of its imminence.
That the earlier proponents of the last days were wrong, is evident from hindsight - they were not in the last days, they were too soon, as Daniel 12:9-10...the Words are to be kept secret until the time of the end....then only a few wise leaders will understand.

Rev20 · Nov 15, 2014

keras said:
Rev20, the context of Amos 9, is the restoration of Israel - that includes the rebuilding of David's house; his line of descendants, and they may possess what is left of Edom. This has not happened yet. If you believe it has, that is your prerogative, but I and many others consider it will be fulfilled in the future.

Keras, in the book of Acts James explained that the fulfillment of Amos 9:11-12 was the opening of the "door" of the commonwealth of Israel (Eph 2:11-16) to the Gentiles. This is James:

"Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things." -- Acts 15:14-17

James was quoting the Greek version of the Old Testament (the Septuagint, or LXX,) which was in common use in the Roman Empire in those days. This is Amos from that translation:

"In that day I will raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and will rebuild the ruins of it, and will set up the parts thereof that have been broken down, and will build it up as in the ancient days: that the remnant of men, and all the Gentiles upon whom my name is called, may earnestly seek me, saith the Lord who does all these things." -- Amos 9:11-12 LXX

Notice that the commonwealth of Israel in those passages is ONLY the remnant (or residue) of Israel, as we discussed in previous posts in this thread. This is Paul on that remnant (or residue) of men; and Paul makes no bones that ONLY the remnant will be saved:

"Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha." -- Rom 9:27-29

So, "all Israel," from a genetic perspective, is the remnant. That was also "all Israel" from the perspective of Christ (John 8:39) and Paul (Rom 9:8; Gal 3:26-29.) The rest were cast away because they were no longer the children of Israel and God, but of Satan (John 8:39.)

Of that remnant, some were initially blinded; but they were all eventually brought back into the commonwealth of Israel by the Apostles (Rom 11:25-26.) One of those who was initially blinded was Paul. LOL!
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keras said:
'sands of the sea' does denote a large number, perhaps billions, that is my point, a 'remnant' could be millions.

It has never meant those kinds of numbers anywhere in the scripture.

keras said:
I am not a 'dispensationalist', I simply present Bible prophecy for all to see. If you, as in the OP, can't see what the prophets are trying to tell us, then you can expect the end time events to 'come upon you like a thief'.
I believe that time is now upon us, just from the world situation, but Bible prophecy is my main proof of its imminence.
That the earlier proponents of the last days were wrong, is evident from hindsight - they were not in the last days, they were too soon, as Daniel 12:9-10...the Words are to be kept secret until the time of the end....then only a few wise leaders will understand.

The "end" was the end of the Jewish age. Certainly you are aware that Christ gave us the Gospel in the "last days", and the day of Pentecost occurred in the "last days."

"God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;" -- Heb 1:1-2

"But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:" -- Acts 2:16-17

Why do you ignore all those scriptures contrary to your doctrine as if they do not exist? And why do you pretend prophecies that were specifically mentioned as fulfilled by the Apostles, such as Amos 9:11-12, are not fulfilled? That is truly a strange way of interpreting scripture.

Keras, your understanding of the scripture appears to be based on the modern doctrine of dispensationalism, which in modern times had entangled the established doctrines of Orthodox Christianity with all sorts of sensationalism, mostly based on, or supportive of, Jewish fables.

keras · Nov 16, 2014

The Bible has plenty of information on how the Lord’s plans have been fulfilled in the past and what we can expect in our future. Also, according to His plan, very few will truly understand the full scope and implications of future events. Daniel 12:10 Some reasons for this are:
1/ Those who may profess to be Christian, but in their hearts are not: 1 Cor 14:22
1 John 4:4-6 Believers in Christ, you belong in God’s family and you can discern false prophets because the God who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. The world listens to the teachings of worldly people, but we belong to God and whoever knows God pays heed to the truth, those who are not His people cannot comprehend the prophetic message.
Isaiah 29:13-14 The Lord says: Because this people worship Me with empty words and pay Me lip service, while their hearts are far from Me and their religion is but human precepts, learnt by rote; therefore I shall shock them and shock again and their wisdom and discernment will be lost. Matthew 7:21-23
2/ Belief in false teaching, leading to a fixed mindset of wrong ideas: Ezekiel 14:3-5
The prime example of a false teaching is the pre-tribulation rapture. This idea denies many Scriptures that say; all will be tested, 1 Peter 4:12, Luke 21:35. This leads to a careless attitude toward prophecy. If you believe you are good enough and sufficiently holy to be taken directly to heaven, then you will be judged for judging yourself. Humility and trust in the Lord’s saving grace, Isa 30:15, must be our attitude, not the pretentious belief of a removal from the earth to avoid any perceived difficulties. In John 17:15 Jesus asks for protection, not removal and in John 3:13 No one will go to heaven, only He who came from it.
2 Peter 2:1-3 In the past, there were false prophets among the people, just as now you will have false teachers. They will promote their theories and speculations, twisting Scripture to suit their fanciful notions. Many will follow their sheer fabrications and credulous people will make them rich and famous, but judgement waits for them: a long prepared destruction will fall upon their heads.
Jeremiah 23:16-17 The Lord says: Do not listen to your false prophets, who give you false hope and voice their own fancies, it is not the Lord’s Words they speak. They say: ‘prosperity will be yours’ and to all who follow their devious beliefs: ‘No harm will befall you’.
Isaiah 29:9-12 The Lord says: I will place My spirit of mis-understanding upon all those who are ‘drunk, but not with wine’ [that is: who allow themselves to be fooled by false teachings], so it becomes impossible for them to see the truth. Isaiah 8:16
3/ Preterism and non-literal interpretation:
To think that all prophecies have been fulfilled or they are just metaphors and allegories, is a serious error that leaves those who believe that way, without proper knowledge or understanding about the end times.
2 Peter 1:19 We confirm the message of the prophets, to which you will do well to study; it will enlighten your minds, like a lamp shining into a dark place.
4/ Denial or straight out refusal to try to comprehend the prophesies:
Ezekiel 33:31-33 My people will listen to the prophets, but they will not take any action. Fine Words, they will say but with insincerity, for their hearts are set on selfish gain. When disaster strikes, as it will, then they will know the truth of prophecy.
Isaiah 48:3-6 Long ago, I announced what will happen, but because of your stubbornness and your refusal to accept instruction, you think everything can be explained by chance or by natural occurrence. You read the Word, consider it well and admit the truth of it.
Hosea 9:7 The Day of punishment and vengeance comes and all Israel will know it. Their prophets are fools and their wise leaders are like madmen, because they are all deep in enmity with God and He will remember their guilt.

Revelation 22:7b…Happy is the person who takes to heart the Words of prophecy in this Book.
Reference: Revised English Bible. Some verses abridged and paraphrased.

Interplanner · Nov 16, 2014

I find you doing most of those Keras. the third point is correct but I don't think you've heard the people speaking about them: the final judgement day of God is coming (Acts 17, Rom 2), it just doesn't have--or need to have--lots of Judaic events connected with it.

I strongly advise against dismissing another believer because of prophecy beliefs, unless they don't believe that justification from our sins has arrived in Christ. It is very important to believe that; it is the Christian hope. We have justification in which we now stand, because Christ has brought that which the law and prophets witnessed. That is what it means to say that Rom 3 is easily the most important part of "prophecy" and is already available to us. The term 'righteounsess' can reasonably be considered to be his reliability about his promises. He has delivered on them.

ebedmelech · Nov 16, 2014

Now...since people won't accept your eschatology, it's a salvation issue Keras?

keras · Nov 16, 2014

As we are all Christian believers, I do not dismiss you personally, just your beliefs on the unfolding of end time events. Because you three are so adamantly opposed to the promotion of Bible prophecy and you use derogatory terms to deride those who do think the prophesies will be literally fulfilled, I will continue to oppose you.
I do this not in the hope of changing your minds, only the holy Spirit can do that, but for the sake of those readers of the forum who need the truth presented to them. They don't get it from the pulpit or fictional books and movies.
Yes IP, I am a 'happy person, who takes to heart the Words of prophecy'.

Ebed, right, it is not a salvation issue. If we truly believe in Jesus, we will be saved.
It is a teaching and knowledge issue. One Day we will stand before the Lord in judgement. Luke 21:34-36 says this will be 'after the great Day, that will come upon everyone' and Rev 6:17 asks ' who can stand?' on that Day.
Therefore so as we can 'stand' and maintain our trust and faith in the Lord, we need to be aware of what that great Day will be and be at least mentally prepared for it.
Paul said: we who are children of the light, should not be in the dark about forthcoming events. 1 Thess. 5:3-9

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Partial Preterist

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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