Resurrection Disproves Pop Culture End Time Teachings

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Originally quoted by iamlamad:

You live in some fairytale land. "all the other verses" you chose say nothing of the kind. You only think they do.

Now try and concentrate as we read this verse:

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes,

YOu try and put a resurrection here, where Luke did not. Indeed, this is moments after death: there is no resurrection here.

I see how you operate: when a verse proves you wrong, you just change the meaning of the verse! How convenient!

Pulpit Commentary:

Lazarus is described as being borne at once into Abraham's bosom. Indeed, some interpret the words as signifying that the body as well as the soul was carried by angels into Paradise*. It is, however, better, with Calvin, to understand the expression as alluding only to Lazarus's soul;

* Some like you that imagine this was resurrection day!

Benson Commentary
Luke 16:22. And it came to pass — In a little time; that the beggar died — Worn out with hunger, and pain, and want of all things; and was carried by angels (amazing change of the scene!) into Abraham’s bosom — So the Jews styled paradise; the place or state where the souls of good men remain from death to the resurrection.

Barnes' Notes on the Bible
Was carried by the angels - The Jews held the opinion that the spirits of the righteous were conveyed by angels to heaven at their death.

Matthew Poole's Commentary

two great points are proved:

1. That the soul is capable of an existence separated from the body, and therefore is not, as some atheists dream, a mere affection of that, and an accident, but a distinct spiritual subsistence.

2. That the souls of the good, when they depart from their bodies, immediately pass into an eternal state of blessedness.

Next, consider what was said between Martha and Jesus:

John 11
23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.


It is proven beyond any shadow of doubt: there was a DEATH but no resurrection. At DEATH one went to Abraham's bosom, while the other went to hell and fire. You just insert a resurrection so this will fit your theories.
You have been caught twisting scripture. NO COMMENTARY I could find agreed with your theory.
What this all boils down to, is believing everything in scripture is of God or not. If you do believe everything in scripture is of God and continue to argue using one side of the argument verses, you are either naive or rebellious, and I know you're not naive. :thumbsup:
 
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Riberra

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n2thelight said:
He had know reason to preach to them(angels),as they were and are already judged...He preached to those who did'nt have the same chance as those for whom He died on the cross for........

I Peter 3:19 "By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison,"

These spirits that Christ preached to in prison, where the spirits of the saints that died prior to His death on the cross.


:thumbsup::clap:
Lamad how do you interpret 1 Peter 3:20 who tell us more about these spirits in prison(Hell/Hades) and their disobedience who happened during the days of Noah ?...

I Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

1 PETER CHAPTER 3

The Bible give us another clue
2 Peter 2:4

4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment;

Jude 1:6 (KJV)
6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
 
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iamlamad

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Daniel wrote,

Originally Posted by iamlamad
When Jesus was resurrected, He was raised with a flesh and bone body, not a flesh and blood body. I see no scriptural proof of your theory that he had to go to heaven to get his resurrection body.

I am pretty sure what you just said is not orthodox teaching. His physical body was restored to life exactly like Lazarus's was or any other person raised from the dead in the Bible. That means a healed flesh and blood breathing body. Aside from that. How on earth do you get from what I said: "your theory that he had to go to heaven to get his resurrection body." What I said was he was caught away, raptured after!!!! he was raised from the dead. As Paul says: 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
Now scientifically speaking. I do not know what happens to our flesh body when this occurs but the result is we are left with our spiritual body which is a physical body but not a flesh body, not even a body that has molecules, at least of the type that science understands. But like the angels who are spirits and yet can eat, drink, appear, disappear, appear in different forms walk through walls ect ect.


Jesus was resurrected. Let's see what Paul tells us about a resurrection body:

1 Cor 15
35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Luke 24
37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.

38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?

39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.


So Jesus' resurrection body was flesh and bone, but not the same kind of flesh we have now. His flesh and bones could walk through walls. He had this body the moment he was raised, for Paul tells us this is how we will be raised.
 
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iamlamad

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Lamad how do you interpret 1 Peter 3:20 who tell us more about these spirits in prison(Hell/Hades) and their disobedience who happened during the days of Noah ?...

I Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

1 PETER CHAPTER 3

The Bible give us another clue
2 Peter 2:4

4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment;

Jude 1:6 (KJV)
6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

I guess we don't need to guess, for Peter tells us that these spirits are from all those that drowned in the flood. Good point! :thumbsup:
 
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iamlamad

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What this all boils down to, is believing everything in scripture is of God or not. If you do believe everything in scripture is of God and continue to argue using one side of the argument verses, you are either naive or rebellious, and I know you're not naive. :thumbsup:

I am NEITHER naïve or rebellious. I am "rightly dividing" the word of Truth. I have a little bit of common sense - something sadly lacking on this thread at times. Do you imagine that when Peter spoke out of line and was corrected by Jesus, that he, Peter, was speaking by the Holy Spirit?

Do you imagine that Job's three friends, in their many chapters of discourse, were speaking by the Holy Spirit? Only someone EXTREMELY naive would think that, when God said at the end that what they said was WRONG. I have even heard sermons from these three of Job's friends. Anyone getting a sermon from nonsense is indeed very naïve.

Here is some common sense for you. If there seems to be a conflict between an Old Testament verse and a New Testament verse, ALWAYS form doctrine from the New. Next, always form your doctrine from the scriptures where there is the most complete thesis on a subject. Then fill in missing pieces from lessor scriptures. An example here would be to form doctrine from Revelation, not Daniel, for Revelation has chapters on something where Daniel may have a verse or two. Finally, if a verse makes good sense in its literal sense, just believe it as it is written - don't try to make it symbolic of something else.

Perhaps you should meditate on why Paul thought the word of God needed to be "rightly divided." Remember, he was only talking about the OLD Testament that needed to be "rightly divided." When he wrote, "all scripture," he was speaking of ONLY the Old Testament, for that was all they had at that time.

By the way, I don't have a rebellious bone in my body, neither am I unteachable. I am wise enough to know when people are teaching nonsense, and I will not be taught nonsense.
 
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shturt678s

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What are you trying to say? If you're trying to say the resurrected body is a spirit, I suggest you read Eze 37.

The forever soul is a person that does not undergo soul sleep, ie, only the body snoozes until Jn.5:28, 29.

All from Adam forward awoke in one of two places.

Old Jack's opinion

Thank you again my brother. :)
 
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shturt678s

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By the way, at sundown I will be celebrating a double Sha-Bath; so, I'll have to get back to you Saturday evening.

In all seriousness we're celebrating, eg, also proclaiming His death, entombment, and resurrection, the Lord's Supper later this morning, ie, we have something in common (celbrating) and not even Sunday. :cool:

Old Jack
 
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iamlamad

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Daniel wrote,

Originally Posted by iamlamad;
I disagree and John disagrees in the book of Revelation. There is a "first" or primary or chief resurrection where all the righteous are raised from a dead flesh and blood body (turned to dust) up a flesh and bone body that can walk through walls. It is a spiritual body. This first resurrection John wrote of comes in waves, with Jesus being the first, then the bride of Christ, then the 144,000, as firstfruits of the Hebrews, then the Old Testament saints. .

The "first resurrection" which is an illustration of something is this, sorry: John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? John 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death. John 4:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. Eph. 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:


We must take the context of a scripture into mind.

Rev 20
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Note: "I saw thrones and they sat upon them..." What can we determine by this? Jesus told the disciples that they would rule during Jesus' reign on earth. There are verses that say the members of the body of Christ on earth would be judges or rulers during the millennium. So these seated on thrones are members of the church of Jesus, after the rapture when they received their resurrection bodies.

Next, John saw those who were beheaded during the 70th week. They also were resurrected and were ruling with Jesus.

So this is the context of the "first resurrection." It includes all the righteous. All the unrighteous must wait for the thousand years to end for their resurrection.
 
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iamlamad

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Originally Posted by iamlamad
Then, a thousand years later, all the unrighteous are raised with a resurrection body. However, John does not tell us if it will be the same kind of body the righteous get.

I disagree with your point 1, that the day of resurrection is immediately after death. The church has been waiting for this day for almost 2000 years. Did I not understand you?


Yeah you did because it is exactly the idea of "a day" that I am disputing.
Matthew 22: 23-28. The same day the Sadducees came to him (Jesus), which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him………… 29. Jesus answered and said to them, You err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. 30. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. 31. But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have you not read that which was spoken to you by God, saying, 32. I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living 33. And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine. Jesus directly used the term “the resurrection” to describe the fact that the patriarchs were alive, not dead and the multitude was astonished by this statement. Why would that be? The belief that there was life after death was held by the vast majority of the multitude. They were certainly not astonished that Jesus would say the Patriarchs were alive anymore than Christians today would not be astonished, it is something they already believe. One can only assume they were astonished because they understood Jesus to say the Patriarchs were already resurrected, something that they understood to be a one time future event at the end of the world. As Martha states here: John 11: 23. Jesus said to her, Your brother shall rise again. 24. Martha said to him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. 25. Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: That is the point, that Jesus used the word "resurrection" to describe Abraham, Isaacs and Jacobs present state. Not that they will be resurrected some "day." but are already because....the general doctrine of resurrected has nothing to do with dead body's.


You make a good point. Jesus had not yet risen, so none of these as of that moment in time had risen either. I believe they DID rise when Jesus rose, as Matthew 27 speaks of some that rose with Him. I believe these were the elders of the Old Covenant - perhaps the same 24 that John saw in Revelation 4. In fact, they were NOT dead as in ceasing to exist or as in "soul sleep" for that is false doctrine; no, they were very much alive in Paradise, or Abraham's bosom as it was called. Perhaps the Sadducees believed that once the heart stopped, that person ceased to exist. Jesus was proving otherwise. It is the very fact that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob WERE ALIVE that one day they would resurrect. If they ceased to exist, what is there to resurrect?

I hope you believe that when the spirit and soul leave a body when a heart stops beating, the person [the real person is the spirit with the soul] does not just disappear into nothingness! IF so, there would be no need for a resurrection, for there would be nothing to raise up but a body void of life. The bible teaches us that a body without a spirit is dead.

I will then, agree that Jesus was speaking of resurrection, but He was saying that there must be LIFE or LIVING to resurrect - speaking of the spirits of those passed.

the patriarchs were alive, not dead

Yes, this is taught very clearly in the story of the rich man and Lazarus. Neither of them were "dead" as in soul sleep or just ceasing to exist. Just as Lazarus was alive in Abraham's Bosom, and just as the rich man was alive in hell, so Abraham was alive when Jesus said this, just not with a flesh body - only in spirit.

Perhaps they were astonished, not by the fact that Abraham was alive somewhere, but by how easily Jesus corrected the Sadducee's false doctrine! TO use this as proof of resurrection the instant of death is very poor exegesis, for other scriptures prove otherwise. "Jesus said to her, Your brother shall rise again." This is of course truth. Martha was thinking of the resurrection day. Jesus had something else in mind; just bringing her brother back from the dead THEN. Jesus did not dispute her doctrine.

Notice what Jesus also said that confirms what Martha believed:

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


So there IS a resurrection day for all, just not all at the same time; Jesus was the first one to rise with a resurrection body. The bride of Christ will be next. Why would you NOT believe in a DAY of resurrection when Jesus said it over and over?
 
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Riberra

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Riberra said:
Lamad how do you interpret 1 Peter 3:20 who tell us more about these spirits in prison(Hell/Hades) and their disobedience who happened during the days of Noah ?...

I Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

I Peter 3:20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

1 PETER CHAPTER 3

The Bible give us another clue
2 Peter 2:4

4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment;

Jude 1:6 (KJV)
6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

I guess we don't need to guess, for Peter tells us that these spirits are from all those that drowned in the flood. Good point! :thumbsup:

The verses i mentioned point out that
those spirits in prison (Hell/Hades) are the -sons of God -mentioned in Genesis 6 .These are these angels who sinned mentioned in 2 Peter 2:4 (which kept not their first estate -Jude 1:6)
Gen 6:4 when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them,
Genesis 6 (KJV)
1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
....
4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

Now you know the meaning of 1Peter 3:19 and 1 Peter 3:20

I Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

I Peter 3:20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
 
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iamlamad

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The verses i mentioned point out that
those spirits in prison (Hell/Hades) are the -sons of God -mentioned in Genesis 6 .These are these angels who sinned mentioned in 2 Peter 2:4 (which kept not their first estate -Jude 1:6)
Gen 6:4 when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them,
Genesis 6 (KJV)
1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
....
4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

Now you know the meaning of 1Peter 3:19 and 1 Peter 3:20

I Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

I Peter 3:20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.


If you wish to believe this, go ahead. It is nonsense.
 
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Interplanner

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In #114, Lamad is prob referring to I Cor 6:2. The Greek NT footnotes (linguistic-based) refer to Dan 7:11, Wsd 3:8 and Rev 3:21. But why this would be millenial is not clear.

Usually its Mt 19:28 that is cited about this. But the implication of v29 to me means that it is the church's business.
 
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Riberra

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iamlamad[/quote said:
There are verses that say the members of the body of Christ on earth would be judges or rulers during the millennium.​
It seem that this are the beheaded from Rev 20 who will receive that task...
Revelation 20 (KJV)
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
 
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