Did Anti-Catholics make this up?

CanIHunt

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I am reading a website that says the line below from Vatican II proves Catholic's worship Mary and are in violation of the scripture. I see no example of this in my online searches of Vatican II text. When i google this phrase, I only find links to Anti-Catholic pages. Can someone help me figure out if this is actually in the text of Vatican II?


Vatican Council II, p. 420, find this

" . . . when she [Mary] is the subject of preaching and worship she prompts the faithful to come to her Son . . .
 

Dylan Michael

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I am reading a website that says the line below from Vatican II proves Catholic's worship Mary and are in violation of the scripture. I see no example of this in my online searches of Vatican II text. When i google this phrase, I only find links to Anti-Catholic pages. Can someone help me figure out if this is actually in the text of Vatican II?


Vatican Council II, p. 420, find this

" . . . when she [Mary] is the subject of preaching and worship she prompts the faithful to come to her Son . . .


I would imagine, if it is a genuine quote it's either a poor translation or a misunderstanding of the word worship.

But, I'm also tempted to say it's fake, for two reasons.
1)The citation. There is no one Vatican II document. There are in fact 16, ranging from the Liturgy, to the laity, to the Eastern Catholic Churches and everywhere in between.

2) It's only on Anti Catholic sites. This is the biggest giveaway.
 
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Sword of the Lord

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I would imagine, if it is a genuine quote it's either a poor translation or a misunderstanding of the word worship.

But, I'm also tempted to say it's fake, for two reasons.
1)The citation. There is no one Vatican II document. There are in fact 16, ranging from the Liturgy, to the laity, to the Eastern Catholic Churches and everywhere in between.

2) It's only on Anti Catholic sites. This is the biggest giveaway.

It is correct. My research here: http://www.christianforums.com/t7851008/
 
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AMDG

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I am reading a website that says the line below from Vatican II proves Catholic's worship Mary and are in violation of the scripture. I see no example of this in my online searches of Vatican II text. When i google this phrase, I only find links to Anti-Catholic pages. Can someone help me figure out if this is actually in the text of Vatican II?


Vatican Council II, p. 420, find this

" . . . when she [Mary] is the subject of preaching and worship she prompts the faithful to come to her Son . . .

"Worship" is not what the anti-Catholics think "worship" means. "Worship" for anti-Catholics simply means "adoring God". They simply have nothing else. OTOH under "worship" Catholics find "latria" or adoration to God, which is given ONLY to God. And then there's "Dulia" or honor and reverence given our elder brothers and sisters who we KNOW are in heaven with God--that is allowed to the Saints, but which other Christian religions don't have. And then there is "Hyperdulia" or extreme honor and reverence reserved to the Mother of God, without whom Jesus would not be, but is only found among the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox.

It's a matter of definition of words. Because of hyperdulia given to Mary, we pilgrims on earth are drawn into latria of God alone. Both latria and hyperdulia are Biblical.
 
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stevenfrancis

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Those who sincerely focus on Mary ARE led to her Son. That is her witness to us. And it is the reason for the reverence for her in Catholic Church, (Orthodox Churches, as well, by the way). 'Anti-Catholics', as a general rule, don't subscribe to the communion of the Saints to begin with. Without an understanding of the communion of saints, then you don't envision Mary (or any other saint), as being alive in Heaven, and you don't believe that saints, (who Catholics believe to be very much alive), can carry our prayers to her son. They don't tend to believe the Marian apparitions. They don't understand her to be the new Ark of the Covenant, (The original ark carried the Word of God as scripture - The New Ark of the covenant carried the Word of God made Flesh). They would have her living a standard married life with her husband in spite of blessed nature of her womb, and her marriage to the Holy Spirit, having consummated, and so don't get the idea of the purity of the ark of the covenant, and therefore perpetual virginity. Nor do they understand or grasp the immaculate conception, and Mary being set apart by God to be the bearer of His Son. Himself. The Mother of God. They simply don't understand who Mary IS, and why she's of such great import to the Christian. There are whole large books on this subject. I don't let these views upset me personally. I know the difference between reverence and idolatry. Many of the Catholic Views on Mary come straight from scripture itself. A few others from the Fathers. The first couple chapters of the Gospel of St. Luke contain enough of a seminar on Mary to at least make her non-offensive to Christians of all types, and to wonder and ponder a little bit. Here are a few of them, which bear some meditation and prayer if nothing else:

Mary is the mother of Jesus. Jesus is God. Mary is the Mother of God. The Mother of our Lord.

Isaiah 7:[13] And he said: Hear ye therefore, O house of David: Is it a small thing for you to be grievous to men, that you are grievous to my God also? [14] Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign. Behold a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and his name shall be called Emmanuel.

Matthew 1:18 And this was the manner of Christ’s birth. His mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, but they had not yet come together, when she was found to be with child, by the power of the Holy Ghost. 19 Whereupon her husband Joseph (for he was a right-minded man, and would not have her put to open shame) was for sending her away in secret. 20 But hardly had this thought come to his mind, when an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, and said, Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take thy wife Mary to thyself, for it is by the power of the Holy Ghost that she has conceived this child; 21 and she will bear a son, whom thou shalt call Jesus, for he is to save his people from their sins. 22 All this was so ordained to fulfil the word which the Lord spoke by his prophet: 23 Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and shall bear a son, and they shall call him Emmanuel (which means, God with us)

Matt 2:10 They, when they saw the star, were glad beyond measure; 11 and so, going into the dwelling, they found the child there, with his mother Mary, and fell down to worship him; and, opening their store of treasures, they offered him gifts, of gold and frankincense and myrrh.

Luke 1:41 No sooner had Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, than the child leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth herself was filled with the Holy Ghost; 42 so that she cried out with a loud voice, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. 43 How have I deserved to be thus visited by the mother of my Lord?

Luke 1:26 When the sixth month came, God sent the angel Gabriel to a city of Galilee called Nazareth, 27 where a virgin dwelt, betrothed to a man of David’s lineage; his name was Joseph, and the virgin’s name was Mary. 28 Into her presence the angel came, and said, Hail, thou who art full of grace; the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women.[4] 29 She was much perplexed at hearing him speak so, and cast about in her mind, what she was to make of such a greeting. 30 Then the angel said to her, Mary, do not be afraid; thou hast found favour in the sight of God. 31 And behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call him Jesus. 32 He shall be great, and men will know him for the Son of the most High; the Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he shall reign over the house of Jacob eternally; 33 his kingdom shall never have an end. 34 But Mary said to the angel, How can that be, since I have no knowledge of man? 35 And the angel answered her, The Holy Spirit will come upon thee, and the power of the most High will overshadow thee. Thus this holy offspring of thine shall be known for the Son of God.

Mary points us to Jesus at every turn. It is Jesus she brings us, and shows to us. She models her life after Him. Though she is sinless as the ark, she is still in need of a savior. She is blessed and full of grace because of Jesus. We are told that Mary's soul even magnifies the Lord for us.-

Luke 1:46 And Mary said, My soul magnifies the Lord; 47 my spirit has found joy in God, who is my Saviour, 48 because he has looked graciously upon the lowliness of his handmaid. Behold, from this day forward all generations will count me blessed; 49 because he who is mighty, he whose name is holy, has wrought for me his wonders. 50 He has mercy upon those who fear him, from generation to generation; 51 he has done valiantly with the strength of his arm, driving the proud astray in the conceit of their hearts; 52 he has put down the mighty from their seat, and exalted the lowly; 53 he has filled the hungry with good things, and sent the rich away empty-handed. 54 He has protected his servant Israel, keeping his merciful design in remembrance, 55 according to the promise which he made to our forefathers, Abraham and his posterity for evermore.

As the mother of God she continues to play a key role in the salvation of God's people -

1 And now, in heaven, a great portent appeared; a woman that wore the sun for her mantle, with the moon under her feet, and a crown of twelve stars about her head. 2 She had a child in her womb, and was crying out as she travailed, in great pain of her delivery. 3 Then a second portent appeared in heaven; a great dragon was there, fiery-red, with seven heads and ten horns, and on each of the seven heads a royal diadem; 4 his tail dragged down a third part of the stars in heaven, and flung them to earth. And he stood fronting the woman who was in childbirth, ready to swallow up the child as soon as she bore it. 5 She bore a son, the son who is to herd the nations like sheep with a crook of iron; and this child of hers was caught up to God, right up to his throne, 6 while the mother fled into the wilderness, where God had prepared a place of refuge for her, and there, for twelve hundred and sixty days, she is to be kept safe.

The Father has Mary prompt her Son's ministry, and tells us to "do as He says" -

1 Two days afterwards, there was a wedding-feast at Cana, in Galilee; and Jesus’ mother was there. 2 Jesus himself, and his disciples, had also been invited to the wedding. 3 Here the supply of wine failed; whereupon Jesus’ mother said to him, They have no wine left. 4 Jesus answered her, Nay, woman, why dost thou trouble me with that? My time has not come yet.[1] 5 And his mother said to the servants, Do whatever he tells you.

All importance ascribed to Mary is pointing to her Son. She is who she is, because He is who He is.

Jesus gave her to us.

John 19:26 And Jesus, seeing his mother there, and the disciple, too, whom he loved, standing by, said to his mother, Woman, this is thy son. 27 Then he said to the disciple, This is thy mother. And from that hour the disciple took her into his own keeping.

She shared in His life on earth at every turn, and she continues to share in His life in Heaven. Mary being a human, has great empathy and love for our struggles. She has appeared to the humble on earth many times with advice for us. None of which, (in the verified apparitions), has ever contradicted God, but only enhanced and "magnified" our understanding of God's love.

There is no scandal or idolatry in her being our spiritual mother, and asking for her intercession with her Son in prayer.

On the other hand, it is not required that we have Marian devotion to be saved. So if one is uncomfortable in Marian devotion then they need not be scandalized by those who are comfortable in Marian devotion. And likewise, neither should one who has a personal devotion to Mary be scandalized by those who don't, or have as yet, not been able to understand.
 
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ahs

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i am going to stop monitoring this thread now. thank you for the responses. here is the original website:

Roman Catholicism, Mary, and Idolatry | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

So, you're jst going to stop monitoring the thread, and leave it with an anti-Catholic website full of anti-Catholic drivel? How about, instead, you find out what is meant by "worship"?

Until modern days, "worship" connoted honor. Judges or members of Parliament were referred to as "Your Worship", and it was no difference than the honor or "worship" one gives to his/her parents, elders, police, etc... The Latin root for this "worship", as it was explained to you in the other thread you abandoned, is "dulia". When Vatican II (and many Priests for that matter, in that time period and prior) speak of "worship", this is what they are talking about, because that what the general populous understood by "worship".

The adoration we give to God is "Latria". This word, in modern days, has come to be made synonymous with "worship". The reasons are speculative, but here's my understanding: non-Catholics have no form of "worship of God" other than that which they used to give to Saints or Judges, or Parliament. Non-Catholic "worship" is no longer similar to that of their Catholic forefathers because most (not all) have rejected the Sacramental and Sacrificial nature of true worship (adoration). They no longer have access to "latria", in other words, because they have renounced "latria". All they are left with is a form of hyper-dulia, which is what Catholics (and all Christians prior to the 16th century) gave to Mary, greatest among the Saints because of the Child she bore.
 
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ahs

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I would imagine, if it is a genuine quote it's either a poor translation or a misunderstanding of the word worship.

But, I'm also tempted to say it's fake, for two reasons.
1)The citation. There is no one Vatican II document. There are in fact 16, ranging from the Liturgy, to the laity, to the Eastern Catholic Churches and everywhere in between.

2) It's only on Anti Catholic sites. This is the biggest giveaway.

It's actually a correct translation, not fake, and is an excellent representation of the original meaning of the word "worship" (dulia). It is only in our modern era that we have muddled the word so much that we mistake it for "latria".

You are right, though. The anti-Catholic websites put a great deal of effort into misrepresenting what that words means/meant, trying to make it appear as though Catholics "worship" Mary with the Adoration (latria) due only to God. We do not, and it is both ignorant and malicious for such sites to suggest otherwise.
 
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Galilee63

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One's soul is missing out on possible Graces if not accepting or dis-trusting our Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God and Her Loving Holy intercession here on earth prior to passing over and/or prior to Jesus appearing on His Earth soon.

Love and kindest wishes your Sister in Jesus Christ our Saviour
 
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