Where did the Church drift off course?

ErezY

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So, are you suggesting the early 'church' drifted off course by not circumcising the flesh of Gentile converts?
I was addressing BR specifically. Who seems to think that all things Christian are steeped in pagan rituals. I reminded him that even Judaism has traditions that have origins in 'pagan' cultures. Circumcision being one of them.

As far as the church drifting off course, I don't think it's off course at all. I don't think today's church ever represented the truth given by the Jewish Messiah of Israel. It has strived to seperate itself from it's origins from it's inception. It's called 'replacement theology'. ;) And the so called church is steeped in it. The church never represented the way the truth and the life revealed by Yeshua, the Messiah of Israel, as given to his followers.

In other words, I don't see the church as on the same track as the truth. Not because it rejected Jewish traditions, but because it rejects Israel and the promises given her by God. It replaces her with 'them'(church) and for this I say they never made it to the track to begin with. The whole of Christendom is based on this lie of replacement theology. Only a small group of protestants are even savy to the whole spiel. And they are mocked as crazy Judaizers for standing with Israel. The church has no Jewish tracks to be derailed. It created it's own rail system, based on what they thought was abolished. Not a good business model if you ask me.
 
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AbbaLove

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As far as the church drifting off course, I don't think it's off course at all. I don't think today's church ever represented the truth given by the Jewish Messiah of Israel. It has strived to separate itself from it's origins from it's inception. It's called 'replacement theology'. ;) And the so called church is steeped in it. The church never represented the way the truth and the life revealed by Yeshua, the Messiah of Israel, as given to his followers.

In other words, I don't see the church as on the same track as the truth. Not because it rejected Jewish traditions, but because it rejects Israel and the promises given her by God. It replaces her with 'them'(church) and for this I say they never made it to the track to begin with. The whole of Christendom is based on this lie of replacement theology. Only a small group of protestants are even savvy to the whole spiel. And they are mocked as crazy Judaizers for standing with Israel. The church has no Jewish tracks to be derailed. It created it's own rail system, based on what they thought was abolished. Not a good business model if you ask me.

Your generalizations (in bold) are prejudicial to the point of saying the nine Fruits of the Holy Spirit as well as the nine supernatural Gifts of the Holy Spirit are void, nul, non-existent within Christendom. It’s like saying Christ’s propitiation/atonement to reconcile even Gentiles (Age of Grace & Mercy) was near to being a failure. Just like with ancient Israel, so too there is always a remnant. There is a remnant of Spirit-filled Gentiles and Jews today that love God with all their heart, soul and strength as well as loving their neighbor.

“Only a small group of protestants [and Catholics] are even savvy to the whole spiel. And they are mocked as crazy Judaizers for standing with Israel.”

This is the true born again Spirit-filled remnant that will be caught up before the Millenium Kingdom. There may be so few that “As The World Turns” they won’t even be missed. As you implied the world may even be temporarily relieved until some/many come to their senses.

Mark 12:29-31 CJB
29 Yeshua answered, “The most important is,
‘Sh’ma Yisra’el, Adonai Eloheinu, Adonai echad [Hear, O Isra’el, the Lord our God, the Lord is one],
30 and you are to love Adonai your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your understanding and with all your strength.’
31 The second is this:
‘You are to love your neighbor as yourself.’
There is no other mitzvah greater than these.”

Mark 12:29-31 NKJV
29 Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lordour God, the Lord is one.
30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ This is the first commandment.
31 And the second, like it, is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

Romans 13:8-10 NKJV
Love Your Neighbor
8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.
9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

During the Millenum Kingdom there is what i would term a ~ Fullness of Completion. Instead of former Spirit-filled Christians (now in Heaven) having made references to the “Full Gospel” the proper reference will be more like the “Full WORD of FATHER GOD.

Isaiah 9:6 NKJV
For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father
, Prince of Peace.

Jeremiah 31:33-34 NKJV
33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

Ezekiel 36:25-27 NKJV
25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.
26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

Zechariah 8:23 NKJV
“Thus says the Lord of hosts: ‘In those days ten men from every language of the nations shall grasp the sleeve of a Jewish man, saying, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.”’”

So, off they go on a marvelous journey toward Zion and the Holy City of Jerusalem.

 
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BukiRob

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Circumcision is recorded as a ritual in the Sumerian and Egyptian texts. You remember Abraham was from the Sumerian culture, and spent years in Egypt before El Shaddai commanded him to do so....... now what?

Gen 17: 23 On that very day Abraham took his son Ishmael and all those born in his household or bought with his money, every male in his household, and circumcised them, as God told him. 24 Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he was circumcised, 25 and his son Ishmael was thirteen; 26 Abraham and his son Ishmael were both circumcised on that very day. 27 And every male in Abraham’s household, including those born in his household or bought from a foreigner, was circumcised with him.


Its very, very, very clear here that Abraham was NOT circumcised prior to Gen 17:23 as scripture declares that Abraham was circumcised that very day...
 
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Shimshon

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[/size][/font]Just like with ancient Israel, so too there is always a remnant. There is a remnant of Spirit-filled Gentiles and Jews today that love God with all their heart, soul and strength as well as loving their neighbor.
“Only a small group of protestants [and Catholics] are even savvy to the whole spiel. And they are mocked as crazy Judaizers for standing with Israel.”
This is the true born again Spirit-filled remnant that will be caught up before the Millenium Kingdom. There may be so few that “As The World Turns” they won’t even be missed. As you implied the world may even be temporarily relieved until some/many come to their senses.

Ezekiel 36:25-27 NKJV
25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.
26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

Zechariah 8:23 NKJV
“Thus says the Lord of hosts: ‘In those days ten men from every language of the nations shall grasp the sleeve of a Jewish man, saying, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.”’”

So, off they go on a marvelous journey toward Zion and the Holy City of Jerusalem.


A remnant? Of the 'church'? Which includes Christians and Jews? That is caught up before Messiah's age of glory? Rapture rubbish. And as has been pointed out, rooted in replacement theology.

The remnant in scripture is Yisrael, not the church. Let's put it back in it's proper perspective. God saved Yisrael through Yeshua the Messiah, and will redeem her completely in the age to come. Gentiles will be included in this redemption, equally. But Yisrael's calling and place in the kingdom of God is secure, and remains. So says God.

A tree of life has arisen in Tziyon, and the Spirit of ADONAI rests on him. He stands as a banner for all the people. And when he comes back and rests, he will be glorious! On that day Adonai will raise his hand again, a second time, to reclaim the remnant of his people who remain. He will hoist a banner for the nations, assemble the dispersed of Yisra’el, and gather the scattered of Y’hudah from the four corners of the earth. (Isaiah 11:1-16)
When Yeshua stands as the banner for all people, he will for a second time reclaim the remnant 'of his people who remain'. Gathering the dispersed of Yisrael and Judah. This is the gathering that is so misconstrued as the 'rapture'.

So don‟t be afraid, because he has redeemed us; and called us by our name. “You are mine”, he says. When we pass through water, he will be with us; when we pass through rivers, they will not overwhelm us; when we walk through fire, we are not scorched – the flame does not burn us. He is ADONAI, our God, the Holy One of Israel, our Savior!! He regards us as valued and honored. He loves us! And he is with us. He will bring us from the east, and will gather us from the west. He will say to the north, „Give them up!” and to the south, „Don‟t hold them back! Bring my sons from far away, and my daughters from the ends of the earth, everyone who bears his name, who he created for his glory. He made us ALL!! (Isaiah 43:1-7)
This is one of my favorite verses. See how God 'loves' Yisrael. He gathers us, in the last days. Not to a cloud, but to restore his kingdom.

The time is coming when he will gather together all the nations and they will come and see his glory. He will give them a sign. He will send a remnant to many nations throughout the world where the glory of God has not been made known. There in the nations this remnant will proclaim the glory of God; and they will bring all our kinsmen out as an offering to ADONAI. We will be brought back to Yerushalayim, says, ADONAI. Because just as the new heavens and the new earth that he is making will continue in his presence, so will the descendants and the name of Israel continue! (Isaiah 66:18-24)
The remnant is the spirit-filled 'JEWS' who were sent out, you know them as the Apostles. This remnant will proclaim the glory of God, and they will bring all Yisrael out as an offering to Yeshua. WE (the remnant of Yisrael) will be brought back to Jerusalem, so says Yeshua!

We will rebuild the ancient ruins, restore sites long destroyed. Strangers will work for us, and we will be called cohanim of ADONAI, spoken of as ministers to our God. Who will be faithful to reward us and make an eternal covenant with us. We and our children will be known among the nations; all who see us will say that we are the seed ADONAI has blessed. (Isaiah 61 4-9)

ADONAI will not destroy us, never! He will bring us to his Land, his mountains, and we will posses them and be his servants. (Isaiah 65:8-10)

Our King will come and succeed; he will do what is just and right in the land. When he comes, Y‟hudah will be saved, and Israel will live in safety. He will be called ADONAI our righteousness. And the day will come when people no longer swear, „As ADONAI lives, who brought the people of Israel out of the land of Egypt, but, „As ADONAI lives, who brought the descendants of the house of Israel up from the land to the north and from all the countries where he drove us. Then we will live in our own land. (Jeremiah 23:1-8)
Jeremiah 33:25-26 25 Here is what ADONAI says: ‘If I have not established my covenant with day and night and fixed the laws for sky and earth, 26 then I will also reject the descendants of Ya’akov and of my servant David, not choosing from his descendants people to rule over the descendants of Avraham, Yis’chak and Ya’akov. For I will cause their captives to come back, and I will show them compassion.'”

Yes, God has removed to the nations and scattered us among the countries; nevertheless, he has been a little sanctuary for us here in the nations we have gone. So, ADONAI says he will gather us from the peoples and collect us from the countries where we have been scattered, and he will give the land of Israel to us. There we will remove all of our disgusting ways, and he will give us unity of heart. He will put a new spirit within us, removing the hearts of stone. We will live by his ways and act by them. We will be his people, and he will be our God. (Ezekiel 11:14-20)

Ezekiel 37:21-28 Adonai ELOHIM says: ‘I will take the people of Isra’el from among the nations where they have gone and gather them from every side and bring them back to their own land. 22 I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Isra’el; and one king will be king for all of them. They will no longer be two nations, and they will never again be divided into two kingdoms. 23 “‘They will never again defile themselves with their idols, their detestable things, or any of their transgressions; but I will save them from all the places where they have been living and sinning; and I will cleanse them, so that they will be my people, and I will be their God. 24 My servant David will be king over them, and all of them will have one shepherd; they will live by my rulings and keep and observe my regulations. 25 They will live in the land I gave to Ya’akov my servant, where your ancestors lived; they will live there – they, their children, and their grandchildren, forever; and David my servant will be their leader forever. 26 I will make a covenant of peace with them, an everlasting covenant. I will give to them, increase their numbers, and set my sanctuary among them forever. 27 My home will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be my people.
28 The nations will know that I am ADONAI, who sets Isra’el apart as holy, when my sanctuary is with them forever.'”
This is the remnant you are inadvertanlty speaking of. And so we come marching home!!! :)
 
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Hebraic

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Indeed, the remnant will be actual physical Israelites that are circumcised (Deut 30:6) in the heart and they will heed the warning in Jeremiah 6:16-19.

16 Thus saith the Lord, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.
17 Also I set watchmen over you, saying, Hearken to the sound of the trumpet. But they said, We will not hearken.
18 Therefore hear, ye nations, and know, O congregation, what is among them.
19 Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people, even the fruit of their thoughts, because they have not hearkened unto my words, nor to my law, but rejected it.

Also, it is my opinion that they will observe the Ten Commandments (Isa 56, 58). Then I believe that they will also follow the Law of Moses (Mal 4:4-6) to the utmost of their given ability.
 
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yonah_mishael

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A remnant? Of the 'church'? Which includes Christians and Jews? That is caught up before Messiah's age of glory? Rapture rubbish. And as has been pointed out, rooted in replacement theology.

I'm glad you were the one who said it and not me. ;) :thumbsup:
 
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BukiRob

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A remnant? Of the 'church'? Which includes Christians and Jews? That is caught up before Messiah's age of glory? Rapture rubbish. And as has been pointed out, rooted in replacement theology.[/FONT]

The remnant in scripture is Yisrael, not the church. Let's put it back in it's proper perspective. God saved Yisrael through Yeshua the Messiah, and will redeem her completely in the age to come. Gentiles will be included in this redemption, equally. But Yisrael's calling and place in the kingdom of God is secure, and remains. So says God.

A tree of life has arisen in Tziyon, and the Spirit of ADONAI rests on him. He stands as a banner for all the people. And when he comes back and rests, he will be glorious! On that day Adonai will raise his hand again, a second time, to reclaim the remnant of his people who remain. He will hoist a banner for the nations, assemble the dispersed of Yisra’el, and gather the scattered of Y’hudah from the four corners of the earth. (Isaiah 11:1-16)
When Yeshua stands as the banner for all people, he will for a second time reclaim the remnant 'of his people who remain'. Gathering the dispersed of Yisrael and Judah. This is the gathering that is so misconstrued as the 'rapture'.

So don‟t be afraid, because he has redeemed us; and called us by our name. “You are mine”, he says. When we pass through water, he will be with us; when we pass through rivers, they will not overwhelm us; when we walk through fire, we are not scorched – the flame does not burn us. He is ADONAI, our God, the Holy One of Israel, our Savior!! He regards us as valued and honored. He loves us! And he is with us. He will bring us from the east, and will gather us from the west. He will say to the north, „Give them up!” and to the south, „Don‟t hold them back! Bring my sons from far away, and my daughters from the ends of the earth, everyone who bears his name, who he created for his glory. He made us ALL!! (Isaiah 43:1-7)
This is one of my favorite verses. See how God 'loves' Yisrael. He gathers us, in the last days. Not to a cloud, but to restore his kingdom.

The time is coming when he will gather together all the nations and they will come and see his glory. He will give them a sign. He will send a remnant to many nations throughout the world where the glory of God has not been made known. There in the nations this remnant will proclaim the glory of God; and they will bring all our kinsmen out as an offering to ADONAI. We will be brought back to Yerushalayim, says, ADONAI. Because just as the new heavens and the new earth that he is making will continue in his presence, so will the descendants and the name of Israel continue! (Isaiah 66:18-24)
The remnant is the spirit-filled 'JEWS' who were sent out, you know them as the Apostles. This remnant will proclaim the glory of God, and they will bring all Yisrael out as an offering to Yeshua. WE (the remnant of Yisrael) will be brought back to Jerusalem, so says Yeshua!

We will rebuild the ancient ruins, restore sites long destroyed. Strangers will work for us, and we will be called cohanim of ADONAI, spoken of as ministers to our God. Who will be faithful to reward us and make an eternal covenant with us. We and our children will be known among the nations; all who see us will say that we are the seed ADONAI has blessed. (Isaiah 61 4-9)

ADONAI will not destroy us, never! He will bring us to his Land, his mountains, and we will posses them and be his servants. (Isaiah 65:8-10)

Our King will come and succeed; he will do what is just and right in the land. When he comes, Y‟hudah will be saved, and Israel will live in safety. He will be called ADONAI our righteousness. And the day will come when people no longer swear, „As ADONAI lives, who brought the people of Israel out of the land of Egypt, but, „As ADONAI lives, who brought the descendants of the house of Israel up from the land to the north and from all the countries where he drove us. Then we will live in our own land. (Jeremiah 23:1-8)
Jeremiah 33:25-26 25 Here is what ADONAI says: ‘If I have not established my covenant with day and night and fixed the laws for sky and earth, 26 then I will also reject the descendants of Ya’akov and of my servant David, not choosing from his descendants people to rule over the descendants of Avraham, Yis’chak and Ya’akov. For I will cause their captives to come back, and I will show them compassion.'”

Yes, God has removed to the nations and scattered us among the countries; nevertheless, he has been a little sanctuary for us here in the nations we have gone. So, ADONAI says he will gather us from the peoples and collect us from the countries where we have been scattered, and he will give the land of Israel to us. There we will remove all of our disgusting ways, and he will give us unity of heart. He will put a new spirit within us, removing the hearts of stone. We will live by his ways and act by them. We will be his people, and he will be our God. (Ezekiel 11:14-20)

Ezekiel 37:21-28 Adonai ELOHIM says: ‘I will take the people of Isra’el from among the nations where they have gone and gather them from every side and bring them back to their own land. 22 I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Isra’el; and one king will be king for all of them. They will no longer be two nations, and they will never again be divided into two kingdoms. 23 “‘They will never again defile themselves with their idols, their detestable things, or any of their transgressions; but I will save them from all the places where they have been living and sinning; and I will cleanse them, so that they will be my people, and I will be their God. 24 My servant David will be king over them, and all of them will have one shepherd; they will live by my rulings and keep and observe my regulations. 25 They will live in the land I gave to Ya’akov my servant, where your ancestors lived; they will live there – they, their children, and their grandchildren, forever; and David my servant will be their leader forever. 26 I will make a covenant of peace with them, an everlasting covenant. I will give to them, increase their numbers, and set my sanctuary among them forever. 27 My home will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be my people.
28 The nations will know that I am ADONAI, who sets Isra’el apart as holy, when my sanctuary is with them forever.'”
This is the remnant you are inadvertanlty speaking of. And so we come marching home!!! :)


AMEN!
Believing Gentiles are grafted in.... They do not in ANY way, shape or form replace Israel. The gospels and writings of John, James, Peter and Paul DO NOT in ANY WAY eradicate, replace or do away with the Torah in any way, shape or form.... over 2/3rd of the new testament are quotes from the Torah... so why on EARTH is Paul teaches the Torah done away with it does he CONSTANTLY quote from it?
 
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rick357

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AMEN!
Believing Gentiles are grafted in.... They do not in ANY way, shape or form replace Israel. The gospels and writings of John, James, Peter and Paul DO NOT in ANY WAY eradicate, replace or do away with the Torah in any way, shape or form.... over 2/3rd of the new testament are quotes from the Torah... so why on EARTH is Paul teaches the Torah done away with it does he CONSTANTLY quote from it?

Would it not be wonderful if YHWH's children could stop aurguing about who is His favorite and tattling about who did what wroung...as to Torah passing away...can algebra exist if math is done away with.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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it may help/ simplify/ to recognize humbly that the ekklesia immersed in Yahushua's Name DID NOT drift off course.

they have been faithful all along.

of course, there's a world full of people who will be very mad and even violent against this truth.

just like they were in the first hundred years a.d. , ..... and 200...... and 300...... and really really really after 300... .....

so, the point for seekers/ searchers of Truth/ heaven/ is like Scripture says somewhere
to "seek out those who are faithful" in whatever town you enter and abide with them.

there may be A LOT of towns, i don't know, that have no ekklesia. then move, and look elsewhere, Yhvh permitting. or stay, and just BE ekklesia right where you are, and let Yhvh bring about whatever Yhvh wants to bring about (growth, strength, purity, righteousness, sanctification, ...... Yhvh knows; Yhvh is Perfect)
 
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zelosravioli

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For awhile I was wondering if this thread drifted off course. It is good to read other perspectives, especially the Messianic perspective. I agree with the above in that we should seek out the assembly where we can. Search for honest and sincere believers we can find fellowship with, and reach others for Christ from there (That is why we are having a Koinonia BBQ :yum: fellowship this evening at our house).

I still hold that the churchs drift off course (just as individuals can drift off course from time to time) when churches leave the 'simplicity' of the Gospel (The Catholic institution being the huge example). The simple communion of believers gathering together around Gods Word, in Truth and Spirit. Just believers, all equal, praying, believing, sitting together (and those who want to join them), and nothing else . No ceremony, traditions, hierarchy, institution, leaders, or divisions, just disciples and believers.

We experience this peace in home churches sometimes, so why is this so difficult?
One main reason is that many people are quick to over-react, disassociate over small things, have minor disputes, and split over doctrinal issues rather than agreeing on just the basics*. The problem is human nature, and all our eagerness and willingness to disassociate with people, rather than humbly accepting others, and being willing to reason through things peacefully.

'But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ' (2Cor. 11:3)
'And every day they were continuing in The Temple with one soul, and in the houses they were breaking loaves of bread, and they were receiving food as they celebrated, and in the simplicity of their hearts' (Acts 2, Aramaic)

*Please do not misunderstand, I am very dogmatic about basic doctrines. I am a student of apologetics, comparative religion studies and I am very familiar with christian cults and isms. I believe in being suspicious of strange doctrines, and I show little sympathy for false doctrine. Yet I have grown to realize that no 'two' Christians will agree on 'everything' ever (just ask a married couple). So grace, forgiveness, a willingness to listen and accept different views, on lesser matters, proves highly profitable for love to grow, and unity of mind will result,
sometimes :):):):):):):):):):):sorry::).
 
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BukiRob

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Would it not be wonderful if YHWH's children could stop aurguing about who is His favorite and tattling about who did what wrong...as to Torah passing away...can algebra exist if math is done away with.

Yep... the problem is the seductive lie of Law(Torah) done away with appeals to the flesh... it sets up for the practice of every man doing right in his own eyes.

Scripture declares "there is a way that seems right to a man, its end is destruction" There is a REASON Torah exists... because Man left to his own wisdom, his own eyes always misses the mark.... Torah exists to teach us HOW to love one another and HOW to love G-d.

Declaring that one does not Need Torah because " the Holy Spirit will guide me in all things..." is self deception because if you were REALLY listing to the Holy Spirit you would FOLLOW him to the Torah because Yeshua is the Torah manifested in the flesh. The 3 are in agreement (HS, Yeshua and the Father)

The word became flesh and dwelt among us.... the word was with G-d from the beginning and the word WAS G-d....

When those words were first written what WORD is the writer speaking of? TORAH!
 
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AbbaLove

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I have grown to realize that no 'two' Christians will agree on 'everything' ever (just ask a married couple). So grace, forgiveness, a willingness to listen and accept different views, on lesser matters, proves highly profitable for love to grow, and unity of mind will result,

For example there must have been many a heated discussion along with the silent treatment between Adam and Eve over their lengthy lifetime. Without "grace, forgiveness, a willingness to listen" (really listen) and "highly profitable for love to grow" 900 years living together under those fallen conditions and seeing the result of their disobedience is difficult to imagine. Is it any wonder that God was deeply grieved. Then to compound the situation the Israelites still strayed after receiving the Mosaic Covenant. It is only with the Renewed (chadashah) Covenant that mankind can be redeemed.

Genesis 6:5-7
5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.
7 The LORD said, "I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them."

The Mosaic Covenant and the Renewed Covenant.
Hebrew Roots/The Law/New Covenant - Wikibooks, open books for an open world


 
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ContraMundum

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So, you hold that Christmas is NOT a pagan holiday?

No, it's not a pagan holiday. I don't know any pagans who celebrate it, but Christians (NOT pagans) all over the world celebrate it somehere in either late December or early January.

You actually believe Messiah was born in December????

I think the evidence is very strong to suggest that He was born between Dec 22 and Jan 6, so yes, I do.

I know the "he was born at (insert Jewish holiday here)" preaches well but I think the ancient dating is a powerful 'drash in itself- but that true teaching is largely ignored today.

Its not junk, its truth.

No, it's junk. All debunked decades ago. All the garbage you've posted on this is just lame, tired old JW/dispensational/bad history arguments completely destroyed by saner minds decades ago. You can follow the "pagan copycat" myth (invented not by Messianics, of course but mainly by Hislop etc) all your life...and if you're honest and consistent you'll find more evidence of pagan influence in the Torah than in the Church......but I don't think you've got the stomach to go there, do you?
 
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What happened to the Churches in the second and Third centuries? ... I wonder what the church would look like today if we had kept the Jewish influence in the practice of the Church?

Ken Hawn

I believe not very much has changed soon after the first witnesses died. Hints of that changing can be seen in the Bible. Acts 20:30, 2 Tim 3:8, 2 Peter 2:1-3 and a number of other places. It didn't take to the second and third centuries, there's no new thing under the sun, only newer interpretations of what's already happened a long time ago.

Also I doubt any type of "influence" would somehow give immunity to the practices mentioned above and allow going to church to be in some kind of pristine first century condition. The only change would be replacing all the Gentile faces with Jewish masks.
 
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rick357

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I have entertained questions of what if myself...what if the church had stayed part of Judaism...what if Israel had accepted and supported Yeshua in whole...what if Joseph had not been sold by his brothers....what if Adam and Eve had been obediant...what if they had a child before the fall...
Still I notice YHWH never deals with anything of that manner....he seems to deal with where we are right now....so Father let your Spirit live through us to accomplish your will and your work in our generation by our dependance on You by your Son and through Your Spirit
 
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BukiRob

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No, it's not a pagan holiday. I don't know any pagans who celebrate it, but Christians (NOT pagans) all over the world celebrate it somehere in either late December or early January.



I think the evidence is very strong to suggest that He was born between Dec 22 and Jan 6, so yes, I do.

I know the "he was born at (insert Jewish holiday here)" preaches well but I think the ancient dating is a powerful 'drash in itself- but that true teaching is largely ignored today.



No, it's junk. All debunked decades ago. All the garbage you've posted on this is just lame, tired old JW/dispensational/bad history arguments completely destroyed by saner minds decades ago. You can follow the "pagan copycat" myth (invented not by Messianics, of course but mainly by Hislop etc) all your life...and if you're honest and consistent you'll find more evidence of pagan influence in the Torah than in the Church......but I don't think you've got the stomach to go there, do you?


LOL so you think shepherds were tending their flock outdoors in the dead of winter... Do you know how cold at night it gets in that area? I do and there is NO WAY they were spending the night outdoors with their sheep that time of year.

So while you slam my view you utterly fail to cite anything other than hot air.... It wasnt until the 4th century that the december 25th date was proposed *But in the fourth century, John Chrysostom argued that December 25th was the correct date ... (Bible.org)

We are told in scripture that Mary and Joseph had to travel to Jerusalem for a Roman census. Luke 2:1 says that when Mary was just about to give birth to Jesus, she and Joseph traveled to Bethlehem to fulfill their obligation to be counted in a Roman census. It is highly unlikely that they would have been traveling in the Winter because it would have been much too hard. Rather, people traveled in the Fall, between the heat of Summer and the cold of Winter. And at that time of year the grain, and also some fruit, were ripe, and travelers were allowed to eat some of the “gleanings” as they passed by (Lev. 23:22).

A study of the now computerized data by which we can very accurately determine astronomical events of that time gives us another piece of the puzzle to dating the birth of Christ in September of 3 B.C. In particular, the very noticeable celestial activity of Jupiter, Mars, Mercury, Regulus (the King star), and Venus (the Queen star), and their various combinations of conjunctions in Leo during the nine months leading up to Christ’s birth are vital signs to determine the September birth date of our Lord Jesus. And we believe that research shows that he was born on September 11 (Tishri 1 on the Jewish calendar), on which day the sun was in Virgo, as per the prophecy in Revelation 12:1 of “a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon beneath her feet” (Rev. 12:1). Lests you think this is astrology or something else I will cite Genesis that declares in the first chapter: 14 Then God said, “Let there be lights in the [t]expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years;

Quoting from Jesus Christ Our Promised Seed:

“In 274 A.D., the Romans designated December 25 as the birthday of the unconquered sun, being the time when the sun begins noticeably to show an increase in light, resulting in longer daylight hours. By 336 A.D., the church in Rome was adapting this festival, spiritualizing its significance as a reference to Jesus Christ and calling it the ‘Feast of the Nativity of the Sun of Righteousness.’ Attempting to Christianize and incorporate the pagan traditions of antiquity, the church in Rome adopted this midwinter holiday celebrating the birth of the sun god as one of its own observances, somewhat changing its significance, but retaining many customs of the pagan festival. As the Roman church spread its influence religiously and militarily, this holiday of December 25 became the most popular date in Christendom to celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ. A special mass was established for Christ, hence, the name, ‘Christmass,’ abbreviated ‘Christmas.’”


(the above three paragraphs come from Was Jesus born on December 25th or early September? | Truth Or Tradition?)

There is very substantial and strong evidence that December 25th has absolutely NOTHING to do with the birth of Messiah. What IS clear is that DEC 25th, Yule log, the tree, mistletoe and almost everything associated with the holiday itself is steeped in very deep pagan roots.


To argue that Lent and Easter arent pagan in nature is so laughable that you have to be wilfully blind to not see it
 
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