Witch nearly beheaded in OK by Christian

Gwenyfur said:

I just discovered the lie hidden within all that "mystery"
I saw it demonstrated repeatedly - in the church - in the lives of those who "embrace" christianity - and to an even higher degree here.

and was made ill by it - the lack of compassion, love, caring, empathy all wrapped in a cloak of scripture and doctrine.

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Reread the first line of my post.

It also covers the rest of this rant. Scripture and doctrine only tell us who Christ is. It is up to the Christian to live out His life through us. It appears you met a number of Christians who weren't able to do that, and have no excuse for missing the point. Unfortunately, that is the case with the majority of us in churches today.

You have all this knowledge of Scripture and doctrine, too, and you obviously missed the point as badly as the ones you now criticize did. If you had that knowledge, what prevented you from rising above it all and living in Christlikeness? You had the knowledge, so you say. You didn't do it. Instead of living out Christ in front of them and seeking to help them see what they were missing, you walked away.

So what was your excuse?

Gwenyfur said:

I just discovered the lie hidden within all that "mystery"
I saw it demonstrated repeatedly - in the church - in the lives of those who "embrace" christianity - and to an even higher degree here.

and was made ill by it - the lack of compassion, love, caring, empathy all wrapped in a cloak of scripture and doctrine.

Your Christ states to love your neighbor - and most of what is shown to others is a velvet sheathed knife usually planted in someone's back.

I see congregations "kill" their clergy, stab at each other with gossip and malice, condone domestic violence counseling women to go home and "be a better wife", way too many men attempting to "lead" when they haven't gotten themselves in order (inappropriate content, drinking, drugs, whatever)

You reach a point where the "not perfect but forgiven" rings trite - and becomes the excuse to stop trying to be better - the lack of accountability, personal responsibility (after all - original sin isn't yours is it? You're just the victim of mother Eve).

I fully admit I'm not perfect- but I own my mistakes - and don't for one second truly believe that pap of
"if you truly had a heart knowledge of Christ and the Scriptures instead of head knowledge you wouldn't be who you think you are today"

I can tell you - that heart knowledge was there - I was the silver put repeatedly into the fire for purification, I was the Dorcas who fed and clothed the poor and served her community, I was the living sacrifice ... until I realized that sacrifice was worth more.

I stood up, walked off that altar, looked at the Patriarchal nightmare that was perpetuated by Rome and survives in protestantism and realized that most christians aren't christians - they worship like saints on Sundays and live like the devil the rest of the week - they sit in judgement and wrap it up in what is supposed to be a pretty bow of "counseling and Truth" but their hearts are cruel, and they judge more often than not based on their own false "discernment" which in truth is assumption on their part.

I am done with that discernment, usually based on gossip and lies, and the destructive nature it has on the helpless victims of the congregation. And I mean helpless - as it usually arrives in the form of a Deacon, Deacon's wife, the Pastor or his wife, or some other figure that is looked up to, respected, regarded as a "good christian" when in fact they are poison incarnate.

I've returned to my Witchy roots - they make sense, they don't demean women to a status of chattel, nor do they require a man to rule over me, especially when he has no knowledge - heart, head, moral or otherwise, to do so.

Charles Stanley has some amazing teachings and insights - I believe him to be a true man of God - too bad most who quote him have little insight or understanding of what he's actually trying to communicate. Another who's insight always struck me as ringing true - Charles Spurgeon unfortunately many miss the point of his teachings as well...

And on that note - be well... and watch what you assume to be discernment...it's most assuredly fallible.

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These things are nothing new and existed even in the time of Christ's earthly ministry, which is why we have the parable of the Publican and the Pharisee. The Pharisee is the religious man who is doing everything "right" but looks down on others, while the Publican is the sinner who focuses on his own sins and receives the crown that comes from humility.

It would be silly to think that this problem with our human nature would suddenly go away en masse. Within the early church, you had 2 schools of thought. People like the Donatists and the Montanists thought that the Church should be a holy society where you did what you ought to do or would be tossed out. The Orthodox position was that the Church was a hospital where the ill and infirm could find rest. Part of the problem with a hospital is that the ill spread their sickness to others sometimes, but mercy demands that the ill be allowed in so that they can be healed. Then sometimes those who are cured forget that they were ever ill and they begin to revile those new patients coming in. This is in an of itself a new and worse disease than the first.

The Church is full of thieves, liars, murderers, and adulterers, but so is the rest of the world. The problem is being human and the only solution is to become Divine. The way is narrow and few find it. Often those who think they are on it are far from it. God be merciful to me, a sinner.

cow451 said:

To non-believers, that looks like poppycock. If parts don't apply, perhaps we should publish Bibles with disclaimers on those "rejected" passages. And then there's that "All scripture is profitable..." thingy.

We cannot quote-mine the Quran and then complain when someone does the same for the Bible. Well, we can, but don't expect credibility.

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My understanding is that the Quran is more or less an Arabic version of the Old Testament. And that Sunni and Shiite Muslims (who make up almost all of Islam) believe the Koran to have been word-for-word dictated by God Almighty. Ergo, the importance on those young minds--who I marvel over--that can recite the entire Quran word-for-word by memory.

The Christian view is that the Bible was not dictated word-for-word by God Almighty but inspired by God and written under that inspiration by men. A minute difference perhaps but I think it flavors the taste in which one consumes the literary pieces in which they read.

Christianity is a lot more divided than Islam as well. Protestantism alone is so divided by denominations, some with lesbian clergy, or far right wing pastors... that it's hard to talk of the Christian world with any coherency.

There are some fundamentals that all Christians accept though. They have to accept the Triune God belief. Lack of this may make a person neo-Christian at best.

Also, if Christians were so Old Testament then they'd be Jews. Pretty simple. You could have multiple wives under the Old Testament, but you are forbidden that under the New Testament by Jesus. So, to deny there is an effect in Old Testament interpretation by Christians reading it in or through the light of the New Testament is false I think. That's what primarily separates a Christian from a Jew.

Sociologically the Western World had the Reformation or revolt, whichever way you prefer to look at it, in Christianity. And in the Eastern world a Reformation or revolt of sorts took place to within the cultural milieu of Christians and Jews. It was called Islam. It's why some viewed Islam as a heresy of Christianity. However, you would actually have to be Christian to be a heretic.

I'm not a big critic of Islam. Actually, I can even admire the Islam jihadist at times. They are hot, not cold, and certainly not the luke warm of his followers Jesus seems to indicate he dislikes (maybe not them personally as a whole, but that trait of being luke warm).

I once wrote a paper for an English class arguing that there are justifiable times for war. So, I looked at Catholic and Protestant writers on Just War Theory. But among some of the other sources I looked at were Muslim sources on Muslim beliefs about when wars are justifiable.

That process introduced me to the Islamic concept of the Holy Ummah. Which is the Islamic concept of the one holy community of Muslim believers across all planet earth. Nothing, no state, one of the founders of Pakistan I believe, stated can surpass the Holy Ummah. Nation-states can only be tolerated as practical for the needs of man, but can never be put above the Ummah.

The Ummah is somewhat akin to the Catholic concept of "Church." Except "Church" in Catholicism inhabits 3 spheres of existence simultaneously: heaven, purgatory, and earth. All human souls in heaven are saints, in purgatory not yet saints, on earth souls will either eventually become saints in heaven or be damned to hell. This "Church" as a conception is in magnitude pretty much like the Muslim conception of the Holy Ummah.

So, the concept of the Ummah in part, in my views, helps explain Muslim, religious jihads.

The other thing I'm of the opinion of, is that because doctrinal issues of emphasis, Christianity will always have a minority within it that are pacifists (even though Christianity isn't a pacifist religion) whereas Islam will always have a minority within it that are militant jihadists.

And by jihad here I'm not talking about "Greater Jihad" where the war and battles are within the individual spiritually.

cow451 said:

To non-believers, that looks like poppycock. If parts don't apply, perhaps we should publish Bibles with disclaimers on those "rejected" passages. And then there's that "All scripture is profitable..." thingy.

We cannot quote-mine the Quran and then complain when someone does the same for the Bible. Well, we can, but don't expect credibility.

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I also forgot to add... one can read the theological teachings/comments from the so-called "Vatican of the Islamic world." Which is located in Egypt as it's oldest Muslim university.

The religious authorities in that university have come out and said that it is immoral to kill non-Muslims, except when they threaten Islam or disrespect the Islamic religion.

The religious leaders of that university influence at least 50% of the Islamic world (just as the Vatican has no influence over the Protestant, Orthodox, or Mormon world, but does have influence over Christianity largest stream of Christianity: Catholicism), yet little in Western news media is made out of their far "right-wing" instructions to Muslim laity across the planet. That would be like ignoring the Vatican and the liberal news only repeating the phrase that Christianity is a religion of peace.

Pope Benedict never instructed Catholic laity that is immoral to kill non-Christians except when they threaten Christianity or disrespect the Christian religion. His peers in Islam in the Vatican of the Islamic world have taught that. Western media portrayed Pope Benedict as zealot tyrant bent on war and oppression, and his peers at that Egyptian university (the rare times Western media reports on them) as enlightened progressives.

Gwenyfur said:

You're seriously comparing psychotic warlords to Pagans? Do you even have a clue?

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Eh... they were pagans. That General Butt Naked was a pagan during the civil wars in Liberia. He claims now to have converted to Christianity after having had a vision from Christ.

I wonder if his conversion is authentic or not. However, he was a pagan that ate human flesh and drank the blood of innocent children that were murdered by other pagan boys whom he led in battle.

And it was not just warlords but huge swaths of that Liberian population that were pagan.

And cannibalism was not limited to pagan West Africa. When the Teutonic (Germans) Knights entered parts of forested Eastern Europe, they came across, and engaged in battles against, pagan cannibals.

Of course... much is publicized about the cannibalism of the pagan Aztec empire. Only the nobility really ate human flesh. But I think much of the population ate vegetables with human blood sprinkled over it. If not then at least the nobility did.



That said... I'm aware most pagans be they in Africa or elsewhere are not eating people, are not cannibals. Well... at least not the Afro-influenced pagan religions throughout the Americas like Santeria and so forth.

I had a Puerto Rican buddy in the Marine Corps and his mother was involved in Santeria. I went with him once to New Jersey were he grew up and met his mother. She was a nice woman.

I had a Africology professor that is a priest in Vodou too. Good man. I like him better than Christians.

My point earlier about pagans and that video about Liberia is that you can find pagans involved in all sorts of unkind or even cruel things. Certainly, you can find pagan priests in Africa involved in the enslavement of young girls. I'm talking about were several slave girls sleep on the floor of a small hut, work the fields of the pagan priest's, and then have to secure food for themselves some how. All because the pagan priest told the girls' families that their families have a curse on them for some wrong an ancestor did, and to take away the punishment they will have to give a daughter to the priest as a slave.

So, you can find pagans doing unkind things too. Yet, it makes little news coverage relative to wrongs committed among Muslim populations. So, if you want to point out news stories where a Christian commits unkind acts or violent crimes, you can find them among pagans too. Like the Liberian pagans that out of their pagan religious beliefs, drank the blood of innocent children they murdered to give them powers.

General Butt Naked was involved in ritual human sacrifices as small pagan boy too. I think I read that elsewhere about him.

Be careful, I posted my opinion on this and got yelled at.

Brigid48 said:

Lady, your bible literally says "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live", and also literally says Jesus did not come to change the law, not one "jot or tittle". It's hilarious how some christians desperate to get away from their deity's barbaric commands make things up in this way.

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Jesus was put to death via a state execution that first went through a Jewish religious trial (Inquisition=inquiry). I think he was accussed by some of sorcery/witchcraft, if you go by the Jewish Talmud's blasphemous comments about Jesus.

But religious trial for witchcraft and the state sentencing death upon those given a verdict of guilty, is not against Christian teaching. Not traditionally, so far as I know. To this day the Vatican while opposing the death penality for those nations which have the infrastructure and means to adequately incarcerate even the most dangerous in society, still affirms a state's right ("legitimate authority" Catholicism calls it) to protect its citizens and impose the death penalty.

Under Moses--according to the Old Testament as I remember it--he ordered the death of thousands of Jews for lapsing into pagan worship, for worshiping the golden calf. I don't think he gave them a trial.

But traditional Christianity believes a trial must be carried out and that the death penalty is imposed by state authorities. Outside (and within) the papal states that's how it was carried out.

But I'm looking at Western Christianity here. I know a lot less about the broad history of Eastern Christianity. Did Coptic Christians put many or any accused or guilty witches to death in Egypt? Ethiopian Christians? Greek Orthodox? I don't know. It's an intriguing question though.

What's that famous priest in the Spanish Americas that championed the Amerindians? De La Casa I think his name was. While a good enough man that he helped the Amerindians in their persecution by Spanish laity, supposedly, he requested the Inquisition and would have been happy to see baptized people burn to death at the stake for witchcraft.

And there was the famous case of that Catholic friar that burnt to death a Pueblo Amerindian he accused of witchcraft. Which sparked a Pueblo uprising. But that friar committed murder, and I mean murder by the legal definition as an unjustified homicide. He had no authority to carry out an extra judicial lynching.

Extra judicial lynchings have always gone on among Christians. Mainly carried out by laity. Catholic laity lynched many Jews for a long time. The KKK arose among Protestants and set fire to black Protestant churches and carried out a lot of extra judicial lynchings. The largest single lynching in the United States was carried out against a number of Sicilian men in Louisiana. Likely they were Catholic (Christian--not pagans or non-Christians).

But murder (all homicides are not murder) is against the 10 Commandments and against Christian teachings. Murdering a witch, lynching a witch extra-judicially, is immoral and in Catholic teaching a mortal sin. However, the state putting a witch to death for being found guilty of practicing witchcraft is not a sin in Christianity.

Currently, the only Christian theocracy in the world is Vatican City. And I don't think they have put a witch to death in a long time. The United States still carries out the death penalty in a number of states though. Wisconsin is not one of them.

Gwenyfur said:

You might Preacher'sWife can also confirm that at one point, I was a site administrator here at CF.

Never assume the lack of knowledge on the "other team" I've found in most cases I know more and have a deeper understanding of Scripture and its meanings and references than some preachers.

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Does being a site administrator require having a formal academic degree?

I don't know if this is true or not but I've read some people say that one of the appeals of Islam for some people, is that it has a more simply theology than Christianity.

I know Islam, Buddhism, and Christianity have universities and offer advanced academic degrees. I know a person can get a Ph.D. in Christian theology.

Do these pagan religions (I'm not sure Hinduism qualifies as some say Hinduism believes in one God who manifest in numerous avatars) have universities that offer advanced degrees or promote scholarship in paganism like Christianity has universities that promote biblical scholarship and theological scholarship?

Do you think one appeal of paganism is that it is less intellectually tasking relative to say Islam or Christianity?

Not that one can't be a pagan and scientist like a chemist or physicist... but why would one be a pagan and not a scientist, if they are simply emotively moved by plant life and natural surroundings?

Brigid48 said:

Lady, your bible literally says "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live", and also literally says Jesus did not come to change the law, not one "jot or tittle". It's hilarious how some christians desperate to get away from their deity's barbaric commands make things up in this way.

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You are right the Bible does literally says "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" to the literal Jews who literally followed Moses out of Egypt who literally became the literal nation of Israel yet the literal God told the literal Jews they could not keep the law literally so they need a literal sacrifice. I believe that's literally true too.

It's not uncommon for people to become "religious" when they go crazy. These is true with those who never were involved in any religion before. I know someone personally who wasn't religious at all until something snapped. This person jumped out of a moving car took off their cloths went butt naked yelling "the judgement was coming". It would have been funny if it wasn't so serious.

Gwenyfur said:

I stood up, walked off that altar, looked at the Patriarchal nightmare that was perpetuated by Rome and survives in protestantism and realized that most christians aren't christians - they worship like saints on Sundays and live like the devil the rest of the week - they sit in judgement and wrap it up in what is supposed to be a pretty bow of "counseling and Truth" but their hearts are cruel, and they judge more often than not based on their own false "discernment" which in truth is assumption on their part.

I am done with that discernment, usually based on gossip and lies, and the destructive nature it has on the helpless victims of the congregation. And I mean helpless - as it usually arrives in the form of a Deacon, Deacon's wife, the Pastor or his wife, or some other figure that is looked up to, respected, regarded as a "good christian" when in fact they are poison incarnate.

I've returned to my Witchy roots - they make sense, they don't demean women to a status of chattel, nor do they require a man to rule over me, especially when he has no knowledge - heart, head, moral or otherwise, to do so.

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I know what you mean about the Sunday thing. As a teenager I worked at a restaurant a block or so down from my Catholic high school. Sunday's used to be busy days at that restaurant with Catholic laity coming in after Mass at the Church down the block from it.

Some of those people coming in from Mass used be so mean to teenage waitresses that the waitresses would come back in tears into kitchen.

I couldn't believe grown adults coming out of Mass on a Sunday could treat teenage girls working as waitresses so badly.

If your road right now is to travel down the pagan road, then I wish you the best with that. Never now where God may lead you and He may lead you back to Christ.

The issue of men in the priesthood or as popes is made out more than what it is I think. Some of this may come from a Protestant perception. Few men enter the priesthood from developed nations. That's because there is more sacrifice requested than benefits perceived. Worldly benefits at least.

If you want to become powerful as a woman why not become a nun or confine yourself as a nun behind monastic walls? The first desire to become a priest as a woman should be to be a nun. Why I say that is because the first motive ought be serves to God. Catholic men can't become sisters nuns. So, Catholic men if they want to become "powerful" must become a monk or a lowly priest. But if a Catholic man does not want to become "powerful" then he does not join the priesthood but becomes financially wealthy beyond his dreams by running a bank or being appointed CEO of some international corporation like GE. Maybe he becomes President of country.

But assuming as a man and a lowly priest you defy the odds and become--as an old man--the Pope. Why would you want that job and why was the long road there worth the relative few hours of your life you hold that prestigious position. No Pope can please everyone. And there is a lot of metaphysical responsibilities (practical responsibilities too) that come with that job. I'm fallen away from Catholicism and even I wouldn't want that job. Your soul is constantly on the line because you affect/effect the spiritual direction and of roughly a billion souls. I have enough problems worrying about my own soul rather than being held accountable to God for about 1 billion other souls. There are some material perks. But most of those you don't own. You have no freedom. Probably no grandchildren. It's not like your going to romantic dinners with women at restaurants throughout Rome. You're probably not going to bed at night with some young, hot, Colombian woman.

If you want "fun" it's better if you're a dude just to become a rapper, play in a band, work for an investment company, or become a fire fighter. Hey... a dude would be better off (per "fun") becoming a female hairstylist.

But I'm willing to bet in the Orthodox world there are female mystics and saints that have effected the spiritual direction of Eastern Orthodoxy. That's "power" too. You don't have to become a low paid priest.

Also, I thought some Protestant denominations had female pastors? Don't the Anglicans or Episcopalians even have openly lesbian priestess married to other women? How is it so many women believe like Anglicans or Episcopalians but never join those Christian religions? The Anglicans are shrinking fast.

Gwenyfur said:

okay my credentials

I hold a BA in Comparative Theology from Marymount
I hold a BS in Computer Sciences (programming/analyst)
I am ordained and am the Pagan Chaplain for our local VA

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Okay, then you are well educated. Better educated than myself I must acknowledge.

To say that paganism is less mentally taxing is not only inflammatory but a fallacy.

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It's possible paganism isn't. That's partly why I asked. And also in part I was hazarding a guess it isn't. I'm still not sure paganism isn't. At least theologically. However, having to obtain an increasing knowledge about herbs and plants would require a lot of time, energy, and learning. So, I can see where that would be very intellectually stimulating.

You've apparently never met a pagan and had a conversation other than witnessing your faith to them. Try it sometime, you'd be amazed at how well read most of us are.

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Like I said. I met a two in person.

But I don't try to convert others and never really did so far as I can remember.

To say that knowing Christianity is more complicated than knowing all of the available herbs in your native area and their medicinal, magical, and practical uses along with their growing cycles, when they are best harvested, dried, or pressed, is amazing to me.

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Well... I'm talking about theology. More the philosophical aspects of philosophy. However, given herbs are part of pagan religious knowledge or theological base, I could be wrong.

I still don't know why one would become a pagan for that rather than simply becoming a scientist in related fields to that. Not that there's anything wrong with being an herbalist or using holistic remedies.

To say that knowing Christianity is more complicated than keeping and caring for a flock of people with real problems, real needs, and real issues is crazy - I used to joke that Pastors were on call 24/7 now I know exactly how true that is - as a High Priestess ... so am I ... and as a Crone Witch I'm expected to have the Wisdom, Sight, and Knowledge how best to help them.

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I suppose.

I think you and I have some different perceptions shaped by our different Catholic and Protestant cultural formations.

I don't think of a priest as being for the purpose of "caring for people." That's what I think of medical doctors, nurses, dentists, social workers, psychologists and so on for.

The "purpose" for the priest is mainly liturgical. The priest need not be good orator, have the most appealing personality, or cut the most impressive figure when standing. Those things are all good and makes for a better priest bit are not necessary. The most necessary thing is to be a man and serve God. Serve God liturgically through celebration of the Mass and through administering the other sacraments.

But whether laity or clergy I don't see why a Christian can't be a medical doctor or study about herbs and herbal remedies.

You make many false assumption in your post. Unlike Christianity - Paganism isn't based in "emotive response" ...after all yesterday's magic, is today's science ... today's magic will be tomorrow's science.

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I wouldn't call yesterday's shaman practices today's "science." Shaman practices didn't merely rely on herbs (sometimes writing words or drawing images on the body) but reciting chants or prayers. The best Shaman's evidently had some good herbal remedies, otherwise tribes people would have killed them. That's not to say good shaman had 100% success rate. But if they mostly failed they probably did not live long.

And I don't think today's medicine will be tomorrows science. When I was shot 3 times the Fire Departments paramedics rushed me to a Tier 1 medical facility and not to any local pagans. I think modern trauma care via the applied sciences and pharmacology has pretty much outpaced what shaman herbal medicine and "magic" spoken words or writing can do.

Gwenyfur said:

I love how people see a pagan icon and ASSUME that the person was always pagan.

I wasn't....I was raised in a fundamental baptist school became a pagan as a teenager - went back to the church for several years - so long in fact that when I returned to Witch self, my youngest daughter was *SHOCKED* she couldn't believe that her mother could have ever been a Witch let alone return to being one...

You might Preacher'sWife can also confirm that at one point, I was a site administrator here at CF.

Never assume the lack of knowledge on the "other team" I've found in most cases I know more and have a deeper understanding of Scripture and its meanings and references than some preachers.

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Soooo.....why did you quote me?

brewmama said:

It's hard to see how “heavy drug user” and “religious zealot” go together. It's seems early for speculation since they don't have a motive yet, but the guy definitely seems deranged.

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"Hello. I'm Johnny Cash."

Gwenyfur said:

My contention is this
drunk stoned or clean this man claims christianity as his faith
drunk stoned or clean this man had had faith based confrontations with the victime previously
drunk stoned or clean this man killed a witch in the name of your god.

based historically - this is not unknown in the name of god to kill witches...let's begin with the Witch of Endor (or even Lillith) and end up here, in Oklahoma...and every era in between.

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Nobody killed Lillith. Nobody killed the witch of Endor, either.

Gwenyfur I have a question. What does magic offer you that the Lord Yeshua/Jesus doesn't? I am not talking about the followers of each side because they both have good and bad examples ,sigh...believe me I know we Christian can be extemely hypocritical,. But I was wondering what does Magick offer you over Jesus? God offers so much to individual believers. Intimacy with the Holy Spirit, the purest form of love, power beyond comprehension, friendship, peace, joy, happiness, and the highest form of freedom possible. So I understand why you would not want to fellowship with believers but I don't understand why you would not want continued fellowship with Jesus. I mean He'll never leave you and He's always there. I also don't see how believers behavior is somehow responsible by God or the Bible. It was individuals decision just as much as if someone from any other religion killed in the name of their books or god, its still their decision. I will not defend the man but I am not about to condemn the bible or fellow believers for one mans evil actions.