Why critics of Ellen G. White are "splitting hairs".

JohnMarsten

Newbie
Jul 18, 2011
1,371
10
✟9,120.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Wow! Can I relate to everything you just said John. When I put Ellen White down and actually read the Bible all the way through for the first time in my life, I could not believe how drinking was actually allowed! For instance, you don't hear any SDAs tell about what Moses said to the people:

Deu_14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,

Imagine that! Instead of teaching temperance they teach abstinence which not Biblical at all. I could go on how I thought Jesus never ate meat etc (also from her I am sure)

But the hardest thing to deal with having been under the Ellen White rules is how myself, my wife, my mother, and I see it also in my wife's family. How NONE OF US EVER FEEL GOOD ENOUGH AS CHRISTIANS. I believe it is all due to her expression "not one spot, not one stain can be on our characters". I don't know if I or my wife can ever feel good enough as Christians.

Do you mind if I ask, did you grow up SDA?

My mother converted when I was about eight years old, so, it was quite a change... the rest of my family are catholics...

Yeah, it struck me as well when I read Moses and saw that God commanded the people to use tithes to buy strong drinks (among others). Somebody said that Moses never said it was used for drinking :) thats how far people will go in order dissuade somebody from believing the plain word of the bible.

Of course egw created an atmosphere where one simply is not good enough, and probably never will be. She even claimed people shouldnt be taught they have been saved (after baptizm I guess). Its like being under a constant threat of losing ones salvation. I guess this is where it is getting somewhat crazy as people can get paranoid and what is more JUDGMENTAL. - I mean, have you ever realized how much SDAs care about what other SDAs do? - in regard to their 'misbehaving' that is of course. They even made a short satiric commercial about it, where you can get an app that will give you a warning that some fellow SDAs are closing in. It was probably meant to be funny but when you think about SDA-reality its kinda sad.
 
Upvote 0

JohnMarsten

Newbie
Jul 18, 2011
1,371
10
✟9,120.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Imagine that! Instead of teaching temperance they teach abstinence which not Biblical at all. I could go on how I thought Jesus never ate meat etc (also from her I am sure)

This is another good point that does more harm than good.

I have observed many times that if SDA children start drinking (or doing whatever goes against SDA rules) they somehow start doing it excessively. A belief originates that they are on the wrong path now and if they drink in moderation or excesively doesnt matter as they are sinning anyway (just because they drink at all).

Furthermore it can become quite frustrating if you have to explain yourself to other people why you are not drinking. I mean I wouldnt have a problem if I could say that the bible plainly forbids any alcohol and for example that it was the catholic church that changed that commandment. Could be a nice witnessing tool. :)

Unfortunately nothing could be further from the truth. The catholic church didnt change anything related to it as alcohol was never banned and as you rightly stated can be found on numerous occasions in the bible.

The problem arises when I have to tell people the following arguments

1. My church forbids it
- People might come and say that I cannot think freely for myself. It might even put the church in a negative position as it imposes certain rules on men which are indeed controversial. And in effect its true, its the church that forbids it and imposes this rule on their followers.

2. Drinking is a sin
- This one is kinda hard as well, as sin is explained through the word of God. If God dictates the rules we cannot come and overthrow them or change them to suit us. Of course alcohol CAN be sin, and the consequences of drinking might be very undesirable but still. The bible doesnt state that its sin just for the sake of being sin. This may cause some serious debates and will put us in a situation we simply cannot win (at least not with the bible alone :) )

3. Bad translation of the word wine
- Lets be honest this one tops it all, none of us was there when Jesus turned water into wine (the word of God). Making Jesus turn water into grape juice is an argument which is very difficult to prove. Some peopel say how could God Himself create intoxicating wine and give it to the people. Of course if it was sin from the very beginning, He couldnt do that. Thats easy! The problem is that He allowed the israelites to buy wine and strong drink. Psalmist David thank God for the wine that makes the hearts of men quite happy. By letting people make wine for themselves or allowing them to buy it and drink it, and what is more, a desire in my sould to drink wine is not forbidden :), God simply allowed it and turning water into wine isnt any different from that. (I mean if you make it yourself or send somebody else to buy it? whats the difference?)
This argument puts us into a dire position as we have to bend the bible in order to make it fit.- some people might react very harshly and rightly so!
And I still dont know how to make Pauls remedial wine fit into the grape juice context :)

Of course one might simply say I dont drink because I dont want to drink. Thats a valid point, I know many people from outside the SDA who dont drink and I respect that, but I couldnt say that if it wasnt true, and why should I. If its the church that imposes the observance of suchrule, then it is the church that must provide the background to such rule to me, and if I cannot find it in the bible then we have a problem.

Testifying about Jesus to people is a 'business' of its own. Some people may listen to you, some people may laugh about you, in some countries they may even kill you. But hey, thats what we were called to do, right? But why should I take the flak for something that Jesus didnt tell me to do? Or put a stumbling block in front of some peoples faith? I mean, am I supposed to tell people that they have to pledge never to drink any alcohol before the SDA can have them baptized? otherwise they cannot become part of a church that is full of sinners anyway (yes, we are all sinners, and none of us is good). There are people in the SDA that are obese, they eat too much, yet they didnt have to pledge that from now on they are gonna eat in moderation and start losing the weight they have put on over the years of overeating. (I apologize to anyone who may feel offended about this example). But still the so-called sin of drinking alcohol is put in front of so many others that it is up to the individual to make a decision, follow God/church and never ever have a drink anymore or, well.... :)
 
Upvote 0

CaptainToad

Active Member
Feb 7, 2015
331
108
✟13,139.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
The prodical son. He made errors but was not allowed to being his errors home with him.
To return he had to OBEY THE RULES of THEE FATHERS HOUSE.
So there is no sinning till JESUS COMES !

This is one is quite difficult to follow. What kind of errors are we talking about? He was not allowed to bring them with him? Was the brother of the prodigal son without error?

No sinning until Jesus comes?

That would be amazing, does it mean that every one is lost who lets say, has repented like the prodigal son, and sinned since then?

I know there are some people within the SDA who claim that we must get rid of all sin and that a life without sin is possible. It even sounds great! But in reality I have yet to meet people without sin - remember sin is not always the deeds that we do but sometimes the deeds that we don't do and sometimes the deeds that we would like to do.

In no way am I implying that you are a sinner, maybe you are one of those people who doesnt sin - I am not - so in this regard I rather believe there is no sinning after Jesus has come.
 
Upvote 0

Robert Bee

Active Member
Jul 9, 2015
47
1
89
✟7,682.00
Faith
Marital Status
Married
This is one is quite difficult to follow. What kind of errors are we talking about? He was not allowed to bring them with him? Was the brother of the prodigal son without error?

No sinning until Jesus comes?

That would be amazing, does it mean that every one is lost who lets say, has repented like the prodigal son, and sinned since then?

I know there are some people within the SDA who claim that we must get rid of all sin and that a life without sin is possible. It even sounds great! But in reality I have yet to meet people without sin - remember sin is not always the deeds that we do but sometimes the deeds that we don't do and sometimes the deeds that we would like to do.

In no way am I implying that you are a sinner, maybe you are one of those people who doesnt sin - I am not - so in this regard I rather believe there is no sinning after Jesus has come.
Thank you for your reply.
In regard to sinning.
GOD is our judge so humans have no idea how to judge another person unless it is OPEN SIN.
"Ye will not be judged beyond that which ye are about"
Humans cannot read the mind.
Sure I am a sinner because I fall short of the GLORY of GOD.
ADAM took that away from me. I am a branded sinner even if I do not sin as far as I know.
But I must not boast of that as Like JESUS I was born of woman born of WOE.
The wheat & the TARE show how far humans can JUDGE. That far and no further.
Few even know that much.
 
Upvote 0

stinsonmarri

Regular Member
Dec 3, 2010
885
10
73
I am currently in Greenville Georgia
✟16,090.00
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
How to test the Prophets?:


...In the basic New Testament lists of spiritual gifts the "prophetic gift" is listed as second-between that of apostles (first) and that of teachers (third). See 1 Corinthians 12:28-30; Ephesians 4:11. The gift did not usurp the role of the apostles, but its function affected the apostles at times as well as the church membership in general. Some of the apostles were themselves endowed with this gift. The activities of persons so endowed in NT times may be summarized as follows:

1. They were commissioned at times to forewarn of coming difficulties (Acts 11:27-30; 20:23; 21:10-14). In the first instance (Acts 11) the warning of coming famine resulted in a brotherly bonding of the Gentile Christians in Antioch with the Jewish Christians in Judea. The former, contrary to ethnic customs, willingly sent relief to their Jewish brothers in Christ.

2. Through the gift the foreign mission outreach of the church was initiated (Acts 13:1, 2). It also had a part in directing where the early missionaries were to labor (Acts 16:6-10). In Paul's second missionary tour it is noted that he was accompanied by Silas, a prophet (Acts 16:40).

3. In a doctrinal crisis the gift functioned to encourage and to confirm the membership in the true doctrine. The crisis pertained to the relationship of the Jewish ritual to the salvation of Gentile Christians. A large church council made a decision in harmony with the Spirit's directive (Acts 15), although the decision was not inwardly accepted by all. The controversy had broken out in Antioch to which church the decision of the council was related by letter. Judas and Silas ministered for a time to this group: "And Judas and Silas, who were themselves prophets, exhorted [parakaleo, appeal to, urge, exhort, encourage] the brethren with many words and strengthened [confirmed, KJV; episterizo, strengthen] them" (Acts 15:32, RSV).

4. The prophets built up, encouraged, and consoled the church. "He who prophesies speaks to men for their upbuilding, (oikodome, metaphorically, 'building up the spiritual life') and encouragement [paraklesis, encouragement, exhortation] and consolation [paramuthia, encouragement, comfort, consolation]" (1 Cor 14:3, RSV).

5. The prophets tended (along with the other gifts) to unify the church in the true faith and to protect it from false doctrines. "And his gifts were . . . until we all attain to the unity of the faith . . . so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles" (Eph 4:11-15, RSV).

6. The prophets along with the apostles assisted in founding the church. "You are . . . built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone" (Eph 2:20, RSV; cf. 3:5; 4:11)......


So the prophets did a lot more than just see the future, but what about the interpretation of what they were shown or given a understanding?

And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. (2 Peter 1: 19-21)


But not all predictions about the future are from God. So God gives us some guidelines in determining the source behind a prophet.


If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder, and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, 'Let us follow other gods' (gods you have not known) 'and let us worship them,' you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. (Deuteronomy 13: 1-4 NIV)


So, here God is telling us that the written word of God supercedes any prophet or vision. If a prophet or vision contradicts the word of God then we must ignore them. Tradition, persons in authority, politics and a new vision cannot contradict or tell you to ignore the written word. Bible study is supremely important. Therefore, to reject the authenticity and source of the Bible makes us subject to deceitful spirits and experiences. The apostle Peter states, "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of." (2 Peter 2: 1-2) You must test the prophets. Even if they predict with accuracy or can do great miracles, if they lead you away from God or his Word then he was not sent by God. Was Ellen White infallible? No. Nor were God’s prophets of the past. But their basic teaching always reflects God’s teaching. The Word of God is not produced by the will of man, but by the will of God. We are told that “all Scripture is given by inspiration of God [in the original it is said that all Scriptures come out of God], and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness” (2 Timothy 3:16).

[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif, Century Gothic]In other words, what comes out of the mouth of God is infallible, though what prophets understand may sometimes be inaccurate. When Nathan agreed with David that the king was the one to build the temple in Jerusalem, this was not God’s plan. Both David and Nathan were true prophets, but both misinterpreted God’s will. However, when such serious mistakes are about to be made, God always corrects His servants the prophets. In the end, the temple was not built by David, but by his son Solomon. We may know with certainty that God never leaves the prophet in error when his or her basic doctrine is not accurate. (See 1 Chronicles 17).Are Ellen White’s writings a second Bible? They are not. In fact she considered herself a lesser light helping to understand the greater light found in the Holy Bible (2 Peter 1:19, 21). Through out her life she kept pointing to the Bible. (See CM 125; EW 78, MH 465; GC 593)[/FONT]
 
Upvote 0

stinsonmarri

Regular Member
Dec 3, 2010
885
10
73
I am currently in Greenville Georgia
✟16,090.00
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Red dog: the story about your father was precious and very enjoyable. I have said over and over that we do not listen to EGW as we claim we do. If we did we would she was not a prophet neither was David. We have always make mistakes to call people what they are not! EGW stated clearly she was not a prophet and the very last prophet was John who wrote Revelation. We did not need another prophet as was stated in Joel and Acts. What EGW and Hiram Edson that we seem to forget, both had visions. They prophesied as what is the gift of THE HOLY SPIRIT. Never do you read that anyone of HIS gifts were to be a prophet. We seem to fail to understand Acts 2:16, 17 and Rev 22:18. This is why we are so easily to accept false doctrine about the trinity and Christmas among other things. I pray that you all do not get upset with me but instead read the facts.
How to test the Prophets?:


...In the basic New Testament lists of spiritual gifts the "prophetic gift" is listed as second-between that of apostles (first) and that of teachers (third). See 1 Corinthians 12:28-30; Ephesians 4:11. The gift did not usurp the role of the apostles, but its function affected the apostles at times as well as the church membership in general. Some of the apostles were themselves endowed with this gift. The activities of persons so endowed in NT times may be summarized as follows:

1. They were commissioned at times to forewarn of coming difficulties (Acts 11:27-30; 20:23; 21:10-14). In the first instance (Acts 11) the warning of coming famine resulted in a brotherly bonding of the Gentile Christians in Antioch with the Jewish Christians in Judea. The former, contrary to ethnic customs, willingly sent relief to their Jewish brothers in Christ.

2. Through the gift the foreign mission outreach of the church was initiated (Acts 13:1, 2). It also had a part in directing where the early missionaries were to labor (Acts 16:6-10). In Paul's second missionary tour it is noted that he was accompanied by Silas, a prophet (Acts 16:40).

3. In a doctrinal crisis the gift functioned to encourage and to confirm the membership in the true doctrine. The crisis pertained to the relationship of the Jewish ritual to the salvation of Gentile Christians. A large church council made a decision in harmony with the Spirit's directive (Acts 15), although the decision was not inwardly accepted by all. The controversy had broken out in Antioch to which church the decision of the council was related by letter. Judas and Silas ministered for a time to this group: "And Judas and Silas, who were themselves prophets, exhorted [parakaleo, appeal to, urge, exhort, encourage] the brethren with many words and strengthened [confirmed, KJV; episterizo, strengthen] them" (Acts 15:32, RSV).

4. The prophets built up, encouraged, and consoled the church. "He who prophesies speaks to men for their upbuilding, (oikodome, metaphorically, 'building up the spiritual life') and encouragement [paraklesis, encouragement, exhortation] and consolation [paramuthia, encouragement, comfort, consolation]" (1 Cor 14:3, RSV).

5. The prophets tended (along with the other gifts) to unify the church in the true faith and to protect it from false doctrines. "And his gifts were . . . until we all attain to the unity of the faith . . . so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles" (Eph 4:11-15, RSV).

6. The prophets along with the apostles assisted in founding the church. "You are . . . built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone" (Eph 2:20, RSV; cf. 3:5; 4:11)......


So the prophets did a lot more than just see the future, but what about the interpretation of what they were shown or given a understanding?

And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. (2 Peter 1: 19-21)


But not all predictions about the future are from God. So God gives us some guidelines in determining the source behind a prophet.


If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder, and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, 'Let us follow other gods' (gods you have not known) 'and let us worship them,' you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. (Deuteronomy 13: 1-4 NIV)


So, here God is telling us that the written word of God supercedes any prophet or vision. If a prophet or vision contradicts the word of God then we must ignore them. Tradition, persons in authority, politics and a new vision cannot contradict or tell you to ignore the written word. Bible study is supremely important. Therefore, to reject the authenticity and source of the Bible makes us subject to deceitful spirits and experiences. The apostle Peter states, "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of." (2 Peter 2: 1-2) You must test the prophets. Even if they predict with accuracy or can do great miracles, if they lead you away from God or his Word then he was not sent by God. Was Ellen White infallible? No. Nor were God’s prophets of the past. But their basic teaching always reflects God’s teaching. The Word of God is not produced by the will of man, but by the will of God. We are told that “all Scripture is given by inspiration of God [in the original it is said that all Scriptures come out of God], and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness” (2 Timothy 3:16).

[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif, Century Gothic]In other words, what comes out of the mouth of God is infallible, though what prophets understand may sometimes be inaccurate. When Nathan agreed with David that the king was the one to build the temple in Jerusalem, this was not God’s plan. Both David and Nathan were true prophets, but both misinterpreted God’s will. However, when such serious mistakes are about to be made, God always corrects His servants the prophets. In the end, the temple was not built by David, but by his son Solomon. We may know with certainty that God never leaves the prophet in error when his or her basic doctrine is not accurate. (See 1 Chronicles 17).Are Ellen White’s writings a second Bible? They are not. In fact she considered herself a lesser light helping to understand the greater light found in the Holy Bible (2 Peter 1:19, 21). Through out her life she kept pointing to the Bible. (See CM 125; EW 78, MH 465; GC 593)[/FONT]
 
Upvote 0

stinsonmarri

Regular Member
Dec 3, 2010
885
10
73
I am currently in Greenville Georgia
✟16,090.00
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Red-dog: I truly enjoyed the story about your dad, it was joyful and humorous. However it appears that Adventist do not truly hear what EGW is saying nor do they believe in the Bible. It clearly states in Joel 2:28, 29 that Peter realized had now come to pass. Act 2:16, 17 That the fulfillment was coming to an end and THE HOLY SPIRIT was to be poured out upon all flesh in the last days. The Bible made it very clear that John was the last prophet and that his writing completed the mystery of salvation. Most confuse the word prophesy as being a prophet and that is not so! Paul made it clear that THE HOLY SPIRIT would give some the understanding of prophecy as a gift and other the gift of healing, administration to another discerning of spirits and so on. 1 Cor 12:4-11 Not once to you see the word prophet in these verse. EGW and Hiram Edson (appears that we do not mention as we should) both had visions. If it wasn't for Brother Edson we would not understand the Investigated Judgment which was given to both Daniel and John. Both of these messengers were given views of things that we today should understood. However, what they saw was already revealed in the Bible. The problem with us as it was with Israel we do not complete understand the message. Why, because we have taken our eyes off ELOHIM attempting to uplift a woman that refuse to be uplifted and remain humble. EGW was and still is a true servant of YAHSHUA. She was told that she was to a be a messenger and not a prophet! Yes she was use to see people person life to warn them of falling away from the truth. But she clearly stated that she was told by YAHSHUA that she was to be a messenger! Before I here unkind remarks, please check out all of the information on EGW and the last time she spoke on this subject matter. Then kindly get back with me!

Happy Sabbath and be bless!
 
Upvote 0

reddogs

Contributor
Site Supporter
Dec 29, 2006
9,115
475
✟427,104.00
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Red-dog: I truly enjoyed the story about your dad, it was joyful and humorous. However it appears that Adventist do not truly hear what EGW is saying nor do they believe in the Bible. It clearly states in Joel 2:28, 29 that Peter realized had now come to pass. Act 2:16, 17 That the fulfillment was coming to an end and THE HOLY SPIRIT was to be poured out upon all flesh in the last days. The Bible made it very clear that John was the last prophet and that his writing completed the mystery of salvation. Most confuse the word prophesy as being a prophet and that is not so! Paul made it clear that THE HOLY SPIRIT would give some the understanding of prophecy as a gift and other the gift of healing, administration to another discerning of spirits and so on. 1 Cor 12:4-11 Not once to you see the word prophet in these verse. EGW and Hiram Edson (appears that we do not mention as we should) both had visions. If it wasn't for Brother Edson we would not understand the Investigated Judgment which was given to both Daniel and John. Both of these messengers were given views of things that we today should understood. However, what they saw was already revealed in the Bible. The problem with us as it was with Israel we do not complete understand the message. Why, because we have taken our eyes off ELOHIM attempting to uplift a woman that refuse to be uplifted and remain humble. EGW was and still is a true servant of YAHSHUA. She was told that she was to a be a messenger and not a prophet! Yes she was use to see people person life to warn them of falling away from the truth. But she clearly stated that she was told by YAHSHUA that she was to be a messenger! Before I here unkind remarks, please check out all of the information on EGW and the last time she spoke on this subject matter. Then kindly get back with me!

Happy Sabbath and be bless!
Like Moses, she was more than just a prophet.
 
Upvote 0