Ministers threatened with jail and thousands in fines for refusing to marry gays

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DaisyDay

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No for there too it is explained:

Luke 3:23 And Jesus Himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,
Who is the "son of Heli?" Joseph is the son of Heli and Jesus is the "as was supposed" son of Joseph.

As was supposed meaning by-law, in-law. Jesus was the legal son of Joseph, husband of Mary. This genealogical line, that of Joseph, provides the legal link to King David.
Is Joseph both the son of Heli & grandson of Mathat AND the son of Jacob & grandson of Levi?
 
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TLK Valentine

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No for there too it is explained:


Luke 3:23 And Jesus Himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,

Who is the "son of Heli?" Joseph is the son of Heli and Jesus is the "as was supposed" son of Joseph.

As was supposed meaning by-law, in-law. Jesus was the legal son of Joseph, husband of Mary. This genealogical line, that of Joseph, provides the legal link to King David.

or.... "as was supposed" meaning that Jesus' paternity was questioned -- which we see in Mark 6:3 and again in John 8:41

Furthermore, it would be quite the trick for Joseph to be both the son of Jacob, a descendant of Solomon, David's illegitimate son (Matthew 1:6) and the son of Heli, who was descended from Nathan, David's legitimate son (Luke 3:31).

Of course, according to you, no interpretation is needed -- so I guess there's nothing to see here?
 
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YeShallTread

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or.... "as was supposed" meaning that Jesus' paternity was questioned -- which we see in Mark 6:3 and again in John 8:41

Furthermore, it would be quite the trick for Joseph to be both the son of Jacob, a descendant of Solomon, David's illegitimate son (Matthew 1:6) and the son of Heli, who was descended from Nathan, David's legitimate son (Luke 3:31).

Of course, according to you, no interpretation is needed -- so I guess there's nothing to see here?


I don't understand your confusion. :confused:

One account is that of Jesus blood ancestry while the other is that of His step-father Joseph's blood ancestry. Blood line and legal line.

The Joseph that was of David through Nathan is the husband of Mary, the step-father (as was supposed) to Jesus [Luke 3]

The Joseph that was of David through Solomon is the father of Mary and grandfather of Jesus [Matthew 1]
 
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TLK Valentine

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I don't understand your confusion. :confused:

One account is that of Jesus blood ancestry while the other is that of His step-father Joseph's blood ancestry. Blood line and legal line.

That's quite the whimsical interpretation -- not only did you previously claim it was unnecessary, but it doesn't fit the facts.

The Joseph that was of David through Nathan is the husband of Mary, the step-father (as was supposed) to Jesus [Luke 3]

The Joseph that was of David through Solomon is the father of Mary and grandfather of Jesus [Matthew 1]

That would work a lot better if Mary's father wasn't named Joachim.
 
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YeShallTread

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That's quite the whimsical interpretation -- not only did you previously claim it was unnecessary, but it doesn't fit the facts.


I am not interpreting. I am asking you to see what is written for those are facts. There is the genealogy of Jesus and there is that of Joseph, the "as was supposed" father to Jesus.

That would work a lot better if Mary's father wasn't named Joachim.

You will not find "Joachim" anywhere in the Bible. Why do Catholics teach that the parents of Mary were named Joachim and Ann? You'll have to ask them for it is not written as such. There are similarities in the meaning of Joachim and Joseph for Joachim means "May Jehovah exalt. God prepares," while Joseph means "God will add." Is the use of Joachim simply another way to describe Joseph? I don't know but I do know what is written.

The confusion for many is because of the misinterpretation of "husband of Mary" as given in [Matthew]. As I stated previously, the word in the text is "aner" which means male, any male, husband. They saw Joseph and put husband rather than father without counting the "fourteen generations," which when done would clarify the situation.
 
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TLK Valentine

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I am not interpreting. I am asking you to see what is written for those are facts. There is the genealogy of Jesus and there is that of Joseph, the "as was supposed" father to Jesus.

Funny, the Bible itself claims that they're both genealogies of Jesus.

You will not find "Joachim" anywhere in the Bible. Why do Catholics teach that the parents of Mary were named Joachim and Ann? You'll have to ask them for it is not written as such. There are similarities in the meaning of Joachim and Joseph for Joachim means "May Jehovah exalt. God prepares," while Joseph means "God will add." Is the use of Joachim simply another way to describe Joseph? I don't know but I do know what is written.

Some people have decided that the Council of Nicea is not the bee-all and end all regarding what is or isn't the word of God. You'll have to take it up with them.

The confusion for many is because of the misinterpretation of "husband of Mary" as given in [Matthew]. As I stated previously, the word in the text is "aner" which means male, any male, husband. They saw Joseph and put husband rather than father without counting the "fourteen generations," which when done would clarify the situation.

Good thing you're not interpreting or anything... :wave:
 
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YeShallTread

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Funny, the Bible itself claims that they're both genealogies of Jesus.


No it doesn't.


Some people have decided that the Council of Nicea is not the bee-all and end all regarding what is or isn't the word of God. You'll have to take it up with them.

No I don't. I have the Word of the Lord.


Good thing you're not interpreting or anything... :wave:


Good thing there was no need to do so. It is written, have ye not read? Pointing out what is there is not interpreting...it is teaching someone to open their eyes and SEE.
 
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bhsmte

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No it doesn't.




No I don't. I have the Word of the Lord.





Good thing there was no need to do so. It is written, have ye not read? Pointing out what is there is not interpreting...it is teaching someone to open their eyes and SEE.

When you read a book, how do you get any meaning out of the book, if you don't interpret the words on the page?
 
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YeShallTread

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When you read a book, how do you get any meaning out of the book, if you don't interpret the words on the page?


I understand the words on the page.

If the words are...
"I drove to the grocery store last Sunday," then I cannot interpret that to mean I walked to the drug store on Monday.​
If the words are...
"I went to the store one day last week" then I might interpret how I got there, what store it was and exactly when I went.​


Some things are open to interpretation and others are not. The geneaology of Jesus is not open to interpretation. It is was it is.
 
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bhsmte

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I understand the words on the page.

If the words are...
"I drove to the grocery store last Sunday," then I cannot interpret that to mean I walked to the drug store on Monday.​
If the words are...
"I went to the store one day last week" then I might interpret how I got there, what store it was and exactly when I went.​


Some things are open to interpretation and others are not. The geneaology of Jesus is not open to interpretation. It is was it is.

Everything is open to interpretation, some things are just less vague than others.

The bible can be quite vague and judging by the Christians debating with each other on biblical interpretations on this board, there exists much disagreement on interpretations.
 
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David Brider

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I don't understand your confusion. :confused:

One account is that of Jesus blood ancestry while the other is that of His step-father Joseph's blood ancestry. Blood line and legal line.

The Joseph that was of David through Nathan is the husband of Mary, the step-father (as was supposed) to Jesus [Luke 3]

The Joseph that was of David through Solomon is the father of Mary and grandfather of Jesus [Matthew 1]

The problem - the source of the confusion - is that both of the texts in question claim to represent the lineage of Jesus through his earthly father Joseph. Neither of them make any claim to actually depict the lineage of Joseph the father of Mary. That one of them is the lineage of Joseph the father of Mary is your interpretation of the text - an interpretation that seems to run counter to what the text actually says.
 
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YeShallTread

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Everything is open to interpretation, some things are just less vague than others.

The bible can be quite vague and judging by the Christians debating with each other on biblical interpretations on this board, there exists much disagreement on interpretations.

As I said, some things are open to interpretations and believers discuss/argue over them. Then, there are some things clearly written that unbelievers want to make into something that it is not.
 
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bhsmte

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As I said, some things are open to interpretations and believers discuss/argue over them. Then, there are some things clearly written that unbelievers want to make into something that it is not.

Really, I see believers wanting to interpret parts of the bible in the manner in which suits them, no matter how clear the words may seem.
 
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YeShallTread

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The problem - the source of the confusion - is that both of the texts in question claim to represent the lineage of Jesus through his earthly father Joseph. Neither of them make any claim to actually depict the lineage of Joseph the father of Mary. That one of them is the lineage of Joseph the father of Mary is your interpretation of the text - an interpretation that seems to run counter to what the text actually says.


No...both do not claim to represent the blood lineage of Jesus. Only one does that.
 
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YeShallTread

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Getting back on topic, what does any of this have to do with the law of the land?

Who is the Creator of the land and of the laws?

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Deuteronomy 27:3 And thou shalt write upon them all the words of this law, when thou art passed over, that thou mayest go in unto the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee, a land that floweth with milk and honey; as the Lord God of thy fathers hath promised thee.

2 Kings 21:8 Neither will I make the feet of Israel move any more out of the land which I gave their fathers; only if they will observe to do according to all that I have commanded them, and according to all the law that my servant Moses commanded them.
 
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David Brider

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No...both do not claim to represent the blood lineage of Jesus. Only one does that.

Yes, they do.

Despite your protestations of a mistranslation in Matthew 1, there doesn't seem to be any grounds for disputing that the Joseph referred to in Matthew 1:16 is, as the text says, the husband of Mary, rather than her father. (If you can find any translation which goes with your interpretation of the Joseph in that passage being Mary's father, I'll concede that you may have a point...but so far I've been able to find none.)
 
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TLK Valentine

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Who is the Creator of the land and of the laws?

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Deuteronomy 27:3 And thou shalt write upon them all the words of this law, when thou art passed over, that thou mayest go in unto the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee, a land that floweth with milk and honey; as the Lord God of thy fathers hath promised thee.

2 Kings 21:8 Neither will I make the feet of Israel move any more out of the land which I gave their fathers; only if they will observe to do according to all that I have commanded them, and according to all the law that my servant Moses commanded them.

if God has a problem with the laws of the land, He can write His congressman like anybody else.
 
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ChristsSoldier115

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Who is the Creator of the land and of the laws?

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Deuteronomy 27:3 And thou shalt write upon them all the words of this law, when thou art passed over, that thou mayest go in unto the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee, a land that floweth with milk and honey; as the Lord God of thy fathers hath promised thee.

2 Kings 21:8 Neither will I make the feet of Israel move any more out of the land which I gave their fathers; only if they will observe to do according to all that I have commanded them, and according to all the law that my servant Moses commanded them.

With that logic, God allows abortion and homosexual marriage then.
 
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