The Sign of the Cross - the body's reflection thereof

ChesterKhan · Oct 29, 2014

Goodbook said:
Also I know rosicrucians do this as part of their rituals. They are an occult group.

And so what? Mormons use the Bible, too. Does that make you a Mormon? Does that make me a Mormon?

I suspect you have a preacher who expounds the meaning of Scripture. I don't think there's a religion on the Earth that has not done that. Does that mean they are all Bible-believing Christians? You and I know that's obviously not so.

So don't make wild, baseless comparisons. It just makes you look stupid. And to be honest, I wish you wouldn't make yourself look that way.

Albion said:
I've never heard that...and frankly doubt that it's part of anything rosicrucian.

Of course, Catholics are not the only Christians who customarily make the sign of the cross. Eastern Orthodox Christians, Anglicans, Lutherans and others are accustomed to it also. It's a very old practice among Christians.

seashale76 said:
When people sneer at you over it, flinch when they see you doing it, and hold you in contempt for doing so and condemn you, then rejoice. You're honoring the Godhead, the Holy Trinity one in essence and undivided in the face of the condemnations of men.

Thank you. I quite like your reflection, too.

It's just a pity that the condemnations come from so many brothers in Christ, wrongly.

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DiscipleHeLovesToo said:
it depends on where your focus is. if you do this to make yourself feel better about yourself, it's self-focus. if it helps you to focus on God, it's God-focus. it's all about what's in your heart, not what you do

Thanks. I guess I'll just have to figure that out on my own. :liturgy:

Midst said:
Honestly, bluntly? I see it as very shallow and ritualistic and completely missing out.... I am certain you are saying this in sarcasm.

I hope this post was made in sarcasm.

There is a reason the pope is not on the cover of vogue.

Because he is a sign of contradiction, and not a popularity harlot?

Goodbook · Oct 30, 2014

Cross your heart, hope to die.

Cross your heart bra.

Lots of emos and goths wear crosses.

The crusades were made under the cross sign.

Yes i am stupid, do I care what you think of me? No, i dont even know you. Sorry. Just do what you like. Nobody is condemning you for it, just because I dont think its cool, doesnt mean im condeming you. Why ask us anyway, if God already liked you to do it, then you would already know and wouldnt even need to ask on here.

Personally, its not necessary for me, but maybe it is for you because you belong to a church that teaches these kinds of things as tradition. Who knows? Nobodys given any scripture about it, so, I dont believe any christian is required to do it.

Angelfrog · Oct 30, 2014

ChesterKahn- I can only give my personal opinion, of course- but I actually really like that perspective!

I'm not Catholic- but I work in a Catholic school. A priest comes in to celebrate Mass with the school on a fairly regular basis and all staff who can attend are expected to. I'm always there. We have regular prayers in assembly every day as well as Grace said before the class goes to lunch. We have a special school prayer, we say the Lord's Prayer and the Hail Mary is often said. The practice is to genuflect before and after the prayer.

I attend Mass, I say the school prayer, I say the Lord's Prayer- but I don't say the Hail Mary. I simply remain silent at that point.
What I DO do- is join in with genuflecting.

Whatever one may think of it (and it is taught very much as an outward sign of focussing on the Trinity and of respectfully turning to God- not as a superstitious ritual)- I have no problem with following the practice. I don't do it anywhere else, nor privately at home- but I do it several times a day at work.

Regardless on whether 'that's not what it means'- I think that what you described is a lovely way to think of it as I genuflect. I think it's a simple and meaningful way to focus on the aspects of God's nature and I'll certainly be thinking of that next time I'm in the classroom.

Thanks for sharing, ChesterKhan.

Goodbook · Oct 30, 2014

Well, except those who work in catholic schools like angelfrog and want to fit in. Maybe people do it because if they dont, they may think others will see and are not beleivers if they dont do it.
If you find meaning in it, good for you. Im rather simple, God doesnt give me any complicated aerobics to perform when praying.

Albion · Oct 30, 2014

Goodbook said:
Cross your heart, hope to die.

Cross your heart bra.

Lots of emos and goths wear crosses.

The crusades were made under the cross sign.

You know, we run into this argument all the time, and it just frosts me. Something that's perfectly benign or even good is made out to be bad solely because some people misuse or misunderstand it. That makes no sense. What's worse, hardly anything any of us hold dear is immune to it, so what if we picked on every instance of such misuse and did away with the practice of belief because of it??

graceandpeace · Oct 30, 2014

I may be late in saying so, but I like the OP & I love the sign of the cross. Any images, music, & body movements that turn one's focus to our holy God is good. Worship in beauty & truth. :angel:

ChesterKhan · Oct 30, 2014

Goodbook said:
Cross your heart, hope to die.

Cross your heart bra.

Lots of emos and goths wear crosses.

The crusades were made under the cross sign.

And Protestants have crosses in their churches, meeting halls, on their Bibles...

You know what? Maybe we are doing something bad.

Nobody is condemning you for it, just because I dont think its cool, doesnt mean im condeming you.

Oh? The way you compare the sign of the cross to the occult led me to believe otherwise. But if it's just a matter of personal taste...

Why ask us anyway, if God already liked you to do it, then you would already know and wouldnt even need to ask on here.

So if you read something profound in the Bible, you don't share it with anyone? You just keep it to yourself, because it's just you and Jesus and God forbid He works through you to edify others and exalt His own name?

It is an incomplete Christianity you profess - one that is too selfish.

But maybe it is for you because you belong to a church that teaches these kinds of things as tradition. Who knows? Nobodys given any scripture about it, so, I dont believe any christian is required to do it.

I'm not saying it is, and your last sentence is true. At the same time, on what basis are you condemning it?

It's entirely neutral - neither necessary for salvation nor effective for damnation. Take it or leave it.

And you have left it. And I am content to leave it at that. Beyond that, your reasons are personal opinion, just as my original post is personal opinion.
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To the rest, Albion and AngelFrog, and grace, I am glad it could profit you.

Pal Handy · Oct 30, 2014

ChesterKhan said:
It's just a pity that the condemnations come from so many brothers in Christ, wrongly.

No condemnation, just Godly advice.
Why do you find offense?

If you were instructing someone on the most important parts of our
walk with God in Christ, what would you say to them?

I would say this to you as a friend not an enemy....

Doing what is pleasing to God is far more important than outward rituals.

Growing in the full measure and stature of Christ is more important than
what we do in a religious expressions of our own piety.

Make the sign of the cross all you like if it helps you but don't
expect everyone else to think that you are on to something
very important when we all have so far to go in being more like Christ.

Loving your enemies, doing good to those who spitefully use and
abuse you, praying for and forgiving all those who offend you Christian or not, these are just
a few of the things we endeavour to do as we follow Christ so if making the sign of the cross helps
you to do what Christ asks of you, do it often and vigorously.

Origins
The Christian sign of the cross was originally made in some parts of the Christian world with the right-hand thumb across the forehead only. In other parts of the early Christian world it was done with the whole hand or with two fingers. Around the year 200 in Carthage (modern Tunisia, Africa), Tertullian says: "We Christians wear out our foreheads with the sign of the cross". Vestiges of this practice remain: some Christians sign a cross on their forehead before hearing the Gospels during Mass; foreheads are marked with an ash cross on Ash Wednesday; holy oil (called chrism) is applied on the forehead for the sacrament of Confirmation (in the East, the Holy Mystery of Chrismation, as Orthodox call the Sacraments by the name "Holy Mystery"). By the 4th century, the sign of the cross involved other parts of the body beyond the forehead.

Albion · Oct 31, 2014

ChesterKhan said:
To the rest, Albion and AngelFrog, and grace, I am glad it could profit you.

Thanks, but it doesn't "profit" me. It's a simple gesture, not a magic spell or anything like that. :doh:

And EVERY denomination has something like that. If it's not the sign of the cross, there's something else.

In short, I disagree with those who think it scares away demons or ensures that the free throw will go in...but also with those who scorn such a gesture as somehow superstitious.

Most people who make the sign of the cross are simply making a sign of their faith.

yeshuaslavejeff · Nov 1, 2014

not every denom- some shun such things as idolatry , and obviously not every ekklesia too, some are so pure or just plain simple minded in Christ that they won't even discuss such things, but they are very hard to find.

ChesterKhan · Nov 1, 2014

Albion said:
Thanks, but it doesn't "profit" me. It's a simple gesture, not a magic spell or anything like that.

Ha ha ha...

that's not what I meant at all.

A prayer or reflection can profit a person in far more ways than a physical or psychological effect. The chief purpose behind my post was to offer yet another way we can come closer to God - just as every thought about God and every prayer to Him does.

So if it does that, I'd say it profits you, however slightly. Might not even be worth a penny.

Albion · Nov 1, 2014

ChesterKhan said:
Ha ha ha... that's not what I meant at all.

A prayer or reflection can profit a person in far more ways than a physical or psychological effect. The chief purpose behind my post was to offer yet another way we can come closer to God - just as every thought about God and every prayer to Him does.

So if it does that, I'd say it profits you, however slightly. Might not even be worth a penny.

To be clearer, I didn't mean that you had suggested anything along the lines of a magic spell. I exaggerated in addressing the thinking of all those who assume that the making of the sign of the cross is supposed to actually effect some change in the spirit world. We've heard such suggestions.

ChesterKhan · Nov 1, 2014

Albion said:
To be clearer, I didn't mean that you had suggested anything along the lines of a magic spell. I exaggerated in addressing the thinking of all those who assume that the making of the sign of the cross is supposed to actually effect some change in the spirit world. We've heard such suggestions.

Sorry, Albion.

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