Job's Sin...

thankfulttt said:

The Hebrew word "tam" never carries the meaning of "without blemish". It has more to do with morality and uprightness.

Elihu said that they condemned Job while not having an answer for Job's dilemma. We seem to agree on this point. Job did not know how to be just with God, but then neither did his three friends. Job called them God's witnesses against him. I do not believe the three friends ever said anything that was wrong. IMO

Grace and peace, Terry

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I agree, what they failed to do was to give all the glory to God!

In Christ
Daniel

Neogaia777 said:

Some think that Elihu in Job's story, was/is a Christophony. (a picture of Christ) what do you think?

God Bless!

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He claimed to speak in the place of God. Job asked for a mediator made of clay to stand between him and God. Job asked that this mediator do two things.

1. Remove the rod. Job 9:34 & Job 13:21

2. Remove the fear. Job 9:34 & Job 13:21

Then would Job speak.

When Elihu came on the scene he answered Job's request.

Job 33:7 Behold, my terror shall not make thee afraid, neither shall my hand be heavy upon thee.

I believe God sent Elihu in answer to Job's request.

In that Elihu was speaking God's words, yes he was a type of Christ, but he was not God. Elihu was what we should be. He was a spirit filled child of God.

Terry

This is the first time I've heard Job's trials were because of sin, and that his sin was self righteousness? Also I didn't know self righteousness itself was a sin.

Job is a great book in the bible, an experience most of us saved out of distresses can identify with, but the interpreations run the gamut.

Poor Job, the devil was mad at him and challenged him to survive his attacks in faith. Now people are saying it was his own fault that caused the trials?

For all that suffer according to the will of God, this is for you.

Natalie Grant - I Will Not Be Moved - Official Music Video - YouTube

peterandrewj said:

This is the first time I've heard Job's trials were because of sin, and that his sin was self righteousness? Also I didn't know self righteousness itself was a sin.

Job is a great book in the bible, an experience most of us saved out of distresses can identify with, but the interpreations run the gamut.

Poor Job, the devil was mad at him and challenged him to survive his attacks in faith. Now people are saying it was his own fault that caused the trials?

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I don't think anyone is saying the trials of Job were the consequence of sin, but rather they helped to purge him. The crushing of Job brought out a lot of good, but also some bad. Job himself said that he didn't speak rightly. Not that he spoke wrong of God, but that he spoke without understanding that God is so far above him.

So even though Job was a great man he was still a man.

peterandrewj said:

This is the first time I've heard Job's trials were because of sin, and that his sin was self righteousness? Also I didn't know self righteousness itself was a sin.---------[/URL]

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Greetings peterandrew.

I understand your strong feelings for Job as it is the majority feeling for him, mainly based on commentaries, and what has been preached from the pulpit. Many people have suffered loss, and then been instructed to consider Job.

But what does the bible say in regard to Job? Was it not a desire for the soul of Job between God and Satan? The battle was fought by Job and he won.

The question becomes, was the soul of Job secure in God before Job 1:1?

According to Job it was not. According to Job he did not know who or where God was.(Job 9:24) According to Job he did not know how to be just with God.(Job 9:2) Job was trusting in his own righteousness to save him.(Job 27:6) Job wanted to be free from his master. Job 3:19 "The small and great are there; and the servant is free from his master." God said to Job, Job 40:14 "Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee."

IMO God brought the testing to Job to bring him to himself, and keep him from the pit.

jbearnolimits said:

I don't think anyone is saying the trials of Job were the consequence of sin, but rather they helped to purge him. The crushing of Job brought out a lot of good, but also some bad. Job himself said that he didn't speak rightly. Not that he spoke wrong of God, but that he spoke without understanding that God is so far above him.

So even though Job was a great man he was still a man.

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Amen my brother, thank you and really good to hear from you.

God bless you.

(Wait, I say, on the Lord)

thankfulttt said:

Greetings peterandrew....The question becomes, was the soul of Job secure in God before Job 1:1?

According to Job it was not. According to Job he did not know who or where God was.(Job 9:24) According to Job he did not know how to be just with God.(Job 9:2) Job was trusting in his own righteousness to save him.(Job 27:6) Job wanted to be free from his master. Job 3:19 "The small and great are there; and the servant is free from his master." God said to Job, Job 40:14 "Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee."

IMO God brought the testing to Job to bring him to himself, and keep him from the pit.

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Greetings to you too in Jesus name. I had to read Job 9 again to try and understand your take. I didn’t see anything confirming Job’s soul being in jeopardy.
In the first chapter of Job, the whole thing began with Satan coming to the gathering of the sons of God as if he were one of them. And according to Satan he had a right to be there because no one in the earth opposed him. Then God said what about Job?
Satan questioned Job’s status and not God. It was Satan that tempted and tried him, and not God.
There was a righteous man in the earth whom Satan could not defeat, and God allowed him to try knowing he would fail. I think if the devil had no opposition, God would have had to recognize his dominion in the earth.
However I’m grateful for what you shared, and will continue to think about it.
God bless you.

peterandrewj said:

Greetings to you too in Jesus name. I had to read Job 9 again to try and understand your take. I didn’t see anything confirming Job’s soul being in jeopardy.
In the first chapter of Job, the whole thing began with Satan coming to the gathering of the sons of God as if he were one of them. And according to Satan he had a right to be there because no one in the earth opposed him. Then God said what about Job?
Satan questioned Job’s status and not God. It was Satan that tempted and tried him, and not God.
There was a righteous man in the earth whom Satan could not defeat, and God allowed him to try knowing he would fail. I think if the devil had no opposition, God would have had to recognize his dominion in the earth.
However I’m grateful for what you shared, and will continue to think about it.
God bless you.

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Greetings peterandrewj.

Elihu indicates that Job's soul is in trouble.

Job 33:17-22 That he may withdraw man from his purpose, and hide pride from man. He keepeth back his soul from the pit, and his life from perishing by the sword. He is chastened also with pain upon his bed, and the multitude of his bones with strong pain: So that his life abhorreth bread, and his soul dainty meat. His flesh is consumed away, that it cannot be seen; and his bones that were not seen stick out. Yea, his soul draweth near unto the grave, and his life to the destroyers.

When you combine this with God's question to Job it gets clearer.


Job 41:4 Will he make a covenant with thee? wilt thou take him for a servant for ever?

In this verse God asks Job if he is making a permanent contract with Satan.

Blessings in Jesus Christ, Terry.

jbearnolimits said:

I don't think anyone is saying the trials of Job were the consequence of sin, but rather they helped to purge him. The crushing of Job brought out a lot of good, but also some bad. Job himself said that he didn't speak rightly. Not that he spoke wrong of God, but that he spoke without understanding that God is so far above him.

So even though Job was a great man he was still a man.

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Did you know that in the book of Lamentations chapter 3 that there is a corresponding verse in Job for every one of the first eighteen verses?

Only the first seven verses are presented due to volume. If you want the rest I will provide them.

Lamentations 3:1 I am the man who has seen affliction by the rod of his wrath.

Job 19:8 He has also kindled his wrath against me, and he counts me to him as one of his enemies.
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Lamentations 3:2 He has led me, and brought me into darkness, but not into light.

Job 30:26 When I looked for good, then evil came to me: and when I waited for light, there came darkness.
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Lamentations 3:3 Surely against me He has turned His hand Repeatedly all the day.

Job 30:21 You have turned cruel to me; with the might of your hand you persecute me.
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Lamentations 3:4 My flesh and my skin has he made old; he has broken my bones.

Job 33:21 His flesh wastes away to nothing, and his bones, once hidden, now stick out.
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Lamentations 3:5 He has built against me, and compassed me with gall and travail.

Job 16:13 His archers compass me round about; He cleaveth my reins asunder, and doth not spare; He poureth out my gall upon the ground.
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Lamentations 3:6 He hath made me to dwell in dark places, as those that have been long dead.

Job 3:4-5 Let that day be darkness; let not God regard it from above, neither let the light shine upon it. Let darkness and the shadow of death stain it; let a cloud dwell on it; let the blackness of the day terrify it.
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Lamentations 3:7 He hath hedged me about, that I cannot get out: he hath made my chain heavy.

Job 3:23, Why is light given to a man whose way is hid, And whom God hath hedged in? (19:8) He has fenced up my way that I cannot pass, and he has set darkness in my paths.

Listing of the next eleven verses.

Lamentations 3:8 Also when I cry and shout, he shuts out my prayer.

Job 30:20 I cry to you, and you do not hear me: I stand up, and you regard me not.
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Lamentations 3:9 He hath walled up my ways with hewn stone; he hath made my paths crooked.

Job 12:25 They grope in the dark without light, and he makes them to stagger like a drunken man.
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Lamentations 3:10 He was to me as a bear lying in wait, and as a lion in secret places.

Job 10:16 For it increases. You hunt me as a fierce lion: and again you show yourself marvelous on me.
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Lamentations 3:11 He has turned aside my ways, and pulled me in pieces: he has made me desolate.

Job 19:8-9 He has fenced up my way that I cannot pass, and he has set darkness in my paths. He has stripped me of my glory, and taken the crown from my head.
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Lamentations 3:12 He has bent his bow, and set me as a mark for the arrow.

Job 16:12 I was at ease, but he has broken me asunder: he has also taken me by my neck, and shaken me to pieces, and set me up for his mark.
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Lamentations 3:13 He has caused the arrows of his quiver to enter into my reins.

Job 16:13 His archers compass me round about, he splits my reins asunder, and does not spare; he pours out my gall on the ground.
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Lamentations 3:14 was a derision to all my people; and their song all the day.

Job 30:9 And now am I their song, yes, I am their byword.
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Lamentations 3:15 He has filled me with bitterness, he has made me drunken with wormwood.

Job 9:18 He will not suffer me to take my breath, but fills me with bitterness.
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Lamentations 3:16 He has also broken my teeth with gravel stones, he has covered me with ashes.

Job 2:8 And he took him a potsherd to scrape himself with; and he sat down among the ashes. (29:17) And I broke the jaws of the wicked, and plucked the spoil out of his teeth.
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Lamentations 3:17 And you have removed my soul far off from peace: I forgot prosperity.

Job 7:15 So that my soul chooses strangling, and death rather than my life.
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Lamentations 3:18 And I said, My strength and my hope is perished from the LORD:

Job 19:10 He has destroyed me on every side, and I am gone: and my hope has he removed like a tree.
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What the relevance is of the connection between Job and Lamentations.

In Lamentations we have the captivity of Israel and we are told it is because of their sin.

In Job we are told that the Lord released him from captivity after he repented. You do not repent, unless you have sin to repent of.

The connection we find in Lamentations is more than the captivity and punishment.

The first verse of Job says that he was from the land of Uz. The bible does not have filler verses, for every verse has deep significance. We read in Lamentations that the cup of woe was to be passed from the daughter of Zion(Israel/Jacob) to the daughter of Edom(Esau). The daughter of Edom resides, where, in the land of Uz. Job just happens to be the greatest man in Uz.

Was Job an Edomite? The Bible doesn't say, but we know his best friend was.

The book of Job is the most interesting book in the Bible.

Terry

PS Job 34:29 When he giveth quietness, who then can make trouble? and when he hideth his face, who then can behold him? whether it be done against a nation, or against a man only:

Elihu relates that sometimes it is a nation(Zion), and sometimes a man(Job)

Andry said:

You can't be more righteous. Either you are or you aren't. And any attempt to earn more of it simply becomes self-righteousness.

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The Bible disagrees with you. See Jer. 3:11 (and elsewhere).

dysert said:

The Bible disagrees with you. See Jer. 3:11 (and elsewhere).

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Greetings dysert;

There are two kinds of righteousness and they are vastly different. There is God's righteousness, which leads to salvation, and then there is man's righteousness, which is as filthy rags.

When Paul said there is none righteous it referred to Job as well.

In the book of Job God himself asks Job if he is going to to condemn Godm so that he might be righteous. The book of Job never calls Job righteous, though Job tries to make that point before God.

Best regards, Terry

thankfulttt said:

Greetings dysert;

There are two kinds of righteousness and they are vastly different. There is God's righteousness, which leads to salvation, and then there is man's righteousness, which is as filthy rags.

When Paul said there is none righteous it referred to Job as well.

In the book of Job God himself asks Job if he is going to to condemn Godm so that he might be righteous. The book of Job never calls Job righteous, though Job tries to make that point before God.

Best regards, Terry

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Greetings, Terry.

All that you say is well and good, but I was addressing the mistake Andry made when he said someone can't be "more righteous" than another. God said that "Backsliding Israel has shown herself more righteous than treacherous Judah."

Not picking a fight. Just wanting things to be accurate.

dysert said:

Greetings, Terry.

All that you say is well and good, but I was addressing the mistake Andry made when he said someone can't be "more righteous" than another. God said that "Backsliding Israel has shown herself more righteous than treacherous Judah."

Not picking a fight. Just wanting things to be accurate.

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I apologize. Shouldn't have stuck my nose in.

Terry

Neogaia777 said:

Job was not "sinless"... there has only been one who was/is sinless and that is Jesus Christ...

Job trusted in his own righteousness (that he was "good" and upright, and sinless in and of himself, and he had the idea that this was why God was blessing him, because he "deserved it or had been earning it) Job needed to learn to trust in, and rely upon God's righteousness, rather than his own... A sin for which Elihu rebukes him for (Job 33:8-12) and later on Job repents of (Job 42:1-6) (specifically 6)

Job had learned the lesson that his soul IS or WAS NOT as righteous as God's. Job needed to learn that God's soul or Spirit was more righteous than his or anyone's. He needed to learn that favor cannot be earned through righteous works, and Job had to learn that he was a sinner in need of a savior (God) and Job had to learn that he didn't know everything...

We should also learn the same lesson, I think some of us when looking at God, especially in the OT can question God's righteousness or uprightness, and some of especially non-believers and atheists, can begin to think God's not a very good guy, and that our soul is more righteous or upright or kind and good than his (God's)

But that's just not true, God is righteous and right, and upright, and 100% holy and just, even though it's hard for us to understand when he lets bad things happen, or has seemingly even ordered bad things himself.

The final parts of Job, Elihu's words, and then God himself taking the stage and speaking to Job, kinda looks at Job, and in short says (God and Elihu) basically says, "Just exactly who do you think you are Job" You are in the right and God is in the wrong? You are more righteous than God? Cannot/does not God reserve the right to whatever, and I mean whatever he wants with his own things? Does the potter not exercise full authority over the clay?

Job did not initially (when these things started happening to him), Job did not immediately approach God with a Spirit of repentance, no instead he arrayed words against God (not understanding about Satan, and the celestial challenge/case he (Job) was involved in), Job wasn't repentant about anything until the very end of Job in (Job 42:1-6)

This I believe was Job's sin, but it is for no reason the reason why everything that befell him, befell him, that was to a celestial challenge, in front of an audience, he (Job) was made a pawn in making a celestial point...

God Bless!

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Please refer to the first verses in the book of Job for "keys" if you will, to understanding the book of Job and Job himself, and why God described Job as He did.

Thank you kindly.

Neogaia777 said:

Job was not "sinless"... there has only been one who was/is sinless and that is Jesus Christ...

Job trusted in his own righteousness (that he was "good" and upright, and sinless in and of himself, and he had the idea that this was why God was blessing him, because he "deserved it or had been earning it) Job needed to learn to trust in, and rely upon God's righteousness, rather than his own... A sin for which Elihu rebukes him for (Job 33:8-12) and later on Job repents of (Job 42:1-6) (specifically 6)

Job had learned the lesson that his soul IS or WAS NOT as righteous as God's. Job needed to learn that God's soul or Spirit was more righteous than his or anyone's. He needed to learn that favor cannot be earned through righteous works, and Job had to learn that he was a sinner in need of a savior (God) and Job had to learn that he didn't know everything...

We should also learn the same lesson, I think some of us when looking at God, especially in the OT can question God's righteousness or uprightness, and some of especially non-believers and atheists, can begin to think God's not a very good guy, and that our soul is more righteous or upright or kind and good than his (God's)

But that's just not true, God is righteous and right, and upright, and 100% holy and just, even though it's hard for us to understand when he lets bad things happen, or has seemingly even ordered bad things himself.

The final parts of Job, Elihu's words, and then God himself taking the stage and speaking to Job, kinda looks at Job, and in short says (God and Elihu) basically says, "Just exactly who do you think you are Job" You are in the right and God is in the wrong? You are more righteous than God? Cannot/does not God reserve the right to whatever, and I mean whatever he wants with his own things? Does the potter not exercise full authority over the clay?

Job did not initially (when these things started happening to him), Job did not immediately approach God with a Spirit of repentance, no instead he arrayed words against God (not understanding about Satan, and the celestial challenge/case he (Job) was involved in), Job wasn't repentant about anything until the very end of Job in (Job 42:1-6)

This I believe was Job's sin, but it is for no reason the reason why everything that befell him, befell him, that was to a celestial challenge, in front of an audience, he (Job) was made a pawn in making a celestial point...

God Bless!

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I think Job was not self righteous but righteous in God's eyes, or else God wouldn't have said so. He had faith. Sure he had sins, but he repented and was forgiven each time he'd fall, as opposed to a person who is unrepentant and therefore wasn't faithful and did not practice righteousness. I think you have it turned around.

It's always nice to find more of Job's friends around to point out his sins. Granted the first group was cursed because of it.

Neogaia777 said:

Job was not "sinless"... there has only been one who was/is sinless and that is Jesus Christ...

Job trusted in his own righteousness (that he was "good" and upright, and sinless in and of himself, and he had the idea that this was why God was blessing him, because he "deserved it or had been earning it) Job needed to learn to trust in, and rely upon God's righteousness, rather than his own... A sin for which Elihu rebukes him for (Job 33:8-12) and later on Job repents of (Job 42:1-6) (specifically 6)

Job had learned the lesson that his soul IS or WAS NOT as righteous as God's. Job needed to learn that God's soul or Spirit was more righteous than his or anyone's. He needed to learn that favor cannot be earned through righteous works, and Job had to learn that he was a sinner in need of a savior (God) and Job had to learn that he didn't know everything...

We should also learn the same lesson, I think some of us when looking at God, especially in the OT can question God's righteousness or uprightness, and some of especially non-believers and atheists, can begin to think God's not a very good guy, and that our soul is more righteous or upright or kind and good than his (God's)

But that's just not true, God is righteous and right, and upright, and 100% holy and just, even though it's hard for us to understand when he lets bad things happen, or has seemingly even ordered bad things himself.

The final parts of Job, Elihu's words, and then God himself taking the stage and speaking to Job, kinda looks at Job, and in short says (God and Elihu) basically says, "Just exactly who do you think you are Job" You are in the right and God is in the wrong? You are more righteous than God? Cannot/does not God reserve the right to whatever, and I mean whatever he wants with his own things? Does the potter not exercise full authority over the clay?

Job did not initially (when these things started happening to him), Job did not immediately approach God with a Spirit of repentance, no instead he arrayed words against God (not understanding about Satan, and the celestial challenge/case he (Job) was involved in), Job wasn't repentant about anything until the very end of Job in (Job 42:1-6)

This I believe was Job's sin, but it is for no reason the reason why everything that befell him, befell him, that was to a celestial challenge, in front of an audience, he (Job) was made a pawn in making a celestial point...

God Bless!

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