A finely tuned universe that points to a God.

Jul 27, 2014
1,187
11
✟16,481.00
Faith
Oneness
Marital Status
Engaged
That's always been one of the things that bothered me about the FTA. Why carbon based lifeforms? And why universes?

Why this gigantic Rube Goldberg machine?

"Carbon" because the atom has 6 total electrons, 2 in the inner shell and 4 elecrtons in the outer shell for bonding. It is tetravalent. Studies on the vacuum structure of space reveal that it is tetrahedral in nature. This is the natural shape of equal minimum equal tension in radial space.

4 points are the minimum requirement to describe 3d space.

Why universes? Developing physical and self aware life requires space...lot's and lot's of space...and stuff. Nice green stuff in Goldilocks zones. Not too hot, not too cold, just right!

Rube Golberg machine how? I see it doing a great many things simultaneously with minimal parts, many of them preforming more than one task.
 
Upvote 0

JimFit

Newbie
May 24, 2012
359
1
✟15,489.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
Why should we accept the Bible's word on the matter?

Even if you don't accept it you can have a Universe with black holes only.

Being God, couldn't he have created a universe with life but without black holes? He could also have created a universe of the kind depicted in Genesis. A universe of that kind is much more clearly "fine tuned" for human existence.

Black holes aren't useless, they were massive stars. Because the Sun is lifeless that doesn't mean that it is irrelevant to life.

I'm not locking God in or out of anything, you are. Your first premise has "locked him out" as a cause for the universe.

Yes as a transcendent cause and not a physical one. You can choose the alternative, Universe with no cause from Nothingness or Universe with an infinite chain of causes.

Not necessarily. Natural processes are capable of producing complex structures. For example:

a4f4efba51ea4b4aa1dc97ce488960ee.jpg

I already said that the Universe as a structure is NOT due to physical necessity because there was nothing physical to cause a physical cause and because the constants and quantities are independent of the laws of nature.

The snowflake was created due to physical necessity. Of course the snowflake couldn't be created without a Universe, a theist could also include the design of the snowflake to God because he created the Universe. Atheists have only 2 arguments against the structure of the Universe, Physical Necessity and Ex nihilo creation.

No, but a murderer is. Still not seeing where you are going with this analogy...

Sorry i was talking about the person who did the act, the murderer (i thought the murder means the same as the person who commits the act)

What if I showed you an interview where he makes some less than favourable remarks about theology?

This interview was taken in 2013, i don't think he changed his mind so much. Maybe he has a problem with the traditional Theology or the literal view of the Genesis, me as a Christian Orthodox i don't find contradiction with the view that the Laws may existed before the Universe, Plato's work is included in our Theology.

The End of Our Universe among other timely topics… | ThoughtCast®
 
Upvote 0

Archaeopteryx

Wanderer
Jul 1, 2007
22,229
2,608
✟70,740.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Even if you don't accept it you can have a Universe with black holes only.



Black holes aren't useless, they were massive stars. Because the Sun is lifeless that doesn't mean that it is irrelevant to life.

You didn't answer my question from before: Being God, couldn't he have created a universe with life but without black holes? Could he not also have created a universe of the kind depicted in Genesis?

You've placed life at the focal point and assumed that the fine tuning must be for life. But the argument works just as well for a designer who is enthused by black holes or quasars or anything else that would no longer exist if the constants varied.

Yes as a transcendent cause and not a physical one. You can choose the alternative, Universe with no cause from Nothingness or Universe with an infinite chain of causes.

Call it 'transcendent' if you want, but by your own reasoning, the cause cannot be supernatural. You've ruled that out in the first premise.

I already said that the Universe as a structure is NOT due to physical necessity because there was nothing physical to cause a physical cause and because the constants and quantities are independent of the laws of nature.

The snowflake was created due to physical necessity. Of course the snowflake couldn't be created without a Universe, a theist could also include the design of the snowflake to God because he created the Universe. Atheists have only 2 arguments against the structure of the Universe, Physical Necessity and Ex nihilo creation.

These assertions seem to require additional reasoning to support them. Even though we know natural processes are capable of producing structure, you rule them out. Why? This also appears to be in conflict with your first premise.

This interview was taken in 2013, i don't think he changed his mind so much. Maybe he has a problem with the traditional Theology or the literal view of the Genesis, me as a Christian Orthodox i don't find contradiction with the view that the Laws may existed before the Universe, Plato's work is included in our Theology.

The End of Our Universe among other timely topics… | ThoughtCast®

In the interview to which I am referring Vilenkin appears to have problems with theology generally, even "sophisticated" theology.
 
Upvote 0

JimFit

Newbie
May 24, 2012
359
1
✟15,489.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
You didn't answer my question from before: Being God, couldn't he have created a universe with life but without black holes? Could he not also have created a universe of the kind depicted in Genesis?

No he couldn't, that's the argument that the Sun isn't needed for life because it is lifeless. For the Universe to exist there are processes that take place and are invisible to us, maybe massive stars serve a purpose, recently it was discovered that planet Zeus affects positively the earth's atmosphere, maybe the chain extents even belong our galaxy.

Atheists like you think that the earth must be in the center of the Universe to mean something, clearly this is fallacious. The center of attention to a conscious being isn't a center inside space and time.

The Genesis is a poem that describes the creation of the World from the human standpoint, it doesn't go into detail. God placed the author in the position to see the Universe to be created and he described what he saw with the knowledge the humans had at the time. If you go today to an uncivilized tribe and show them a 3d high definition virtual reality hologram about the creation of the Universe they will describe it with the knowledge they have today(earth,fire,light,darkness and so on..). Probably you will end up to have a second Genesis account that looks primitive.

You've placed life at the focal point and assumed that the fine tuning must be for life. But the argument works just as well for a designer who is enthused by black holes or quasars or anything else that would no longer exist if the constants varied.

It doesn't, he could create a Universe filled with Black holes without any life.

Is God a conscious being? Yes he is. Are we conscious beings? Yes we are.These are facts. Do we care only for conscious beings (life)? Yes we are. Then how do you expect another conscious being to care less about us who we are conscious and more about unconscious structures?

Call it 'transcendent' if you want, but by your own reasoning, the cause cannot be supernatural. You've ruled that out in the first premise.

Something supernatural is attached to the natural, what we call supernatural is something that happens with intention from the Mind that preexisted the Natural world and we call the Creator, etc the image on the shroud of Turin was created by a short and intense burst of UV directional radiation. We know what electromagnetic energy is, the supernatural description goes to the fact that it was intended
to happen not because it is something invisible.

Turin Shroud 'was created by flash of supernatural light' | Daily Mail Online

The experiment was replicated here with success

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNJPJ4JwHeE

These assertions seem to require additional reasoning to support them. Even though we know natural processes are capable of producing structure, you rule them out. Why? This also appears to be in conflict with your first premise.

Because the Physical Universe demands an absolute beginning, it was proven by BVG Theorem. I don't know why we still discuss it, prove me that the Universe is Eternal.

Even without the BVG Theorem the notion of an infinite causal regress providing a proper explanation is fallacious, even if the succession of causes is infinite, the whole chain still requires a cause. To explain this, suppose there exists a causal chain of infinite contingent beings. If one asks the question, "Why are there any contingent beings at all?", it won’t help to be told that "There are contingent beings because other contingent beings caused them." That answer would just presuppose additional contingent beings. An adequate explanation of why some contingent beings exist would invoke a different sort of being, a necessary being that is not contingent. A response might suppose each individual is contingent but the infinite chain as a whole is not; or the whole infinite causal chain to be its own cause.

Four ways that the progress of science conflicts with naturalistic speculations


Four ways that the progress of science conflicts with naturalistic speculations | Wintery Knight

In the interview to which I am referring Vilenkin appears to have problems with theology generally, even "sophisticated" theology.

Where is that interview? Vilenkin even admitted that quantum fluctuations can't be past eternal because they are not strong enough. I didn't used Vilenkin to support my whole Theology, i used him to support the claim that the Universe came from something non physical.

Originally Posted by Loudmouth
Then show that our universe came from nothing physical.
I leave that to the experts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHdI4Let27I
 
Upvote 0

Archaeopteryx

Wanderer
Jul 1, 2007
22,229
2,608
✟70,740.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
No he couldn't, that's the argument that the Sun isn't needed for life because it is lifeless. For the Universe to exist there are processes that take place and are invisible to us, maybe massive stars serve a purpose, recently it was discovered that planet Zeus affects positively the earth's atmosphere, maybe the chain extents even belong our galaxy.

You seem to be missing the point of the counterargument, which is that life is an irrelevancy if the universe was fine-tuned for something else altogether. Why single life out as the purpose given that, with alterations in the constants, it's not just life that disappears?

Atheists like you think that the earth must be in the center of the Universe to mean something, clearly this is fallacious. The center of attention to a conscious being isn't a center inside space and time.

No, that's not right. My claim is much more moderate than that. I'm suggesting that a universe of the kind depicted in Genesis lends itself more readily to the claim "The universe was fine-tuned for human existence." Given God's power, creating such a universe would presumably have been within his capacity.

The Genesis is a poem that describes the creation of the World from the human standpoint, it doesn't go into detail.

Isn't that what you're doing with the fine-tuning argument; describing the creation of the world from a human standpoint (i.e., presuming that everything was fine-tuned just for us)?

God placed the author in the position to see the Universe to be created and he described what he saw with the knowledge the humans had at the time. If you go today to an uncivilized tribe and show them a 3d high definition virtual reality hologram about the creation of the Universe they will describe it with the knowledge they have today(earth,fire,light,darkness and so on..). Probably you will end up to have a second Genesis account that looks primitive.

Sure, I agree. That's not my point, however. See above.

It doesn't, he could create a Universe filled with Black holes without any life.

Really? How do you know that?

Is God a conscious being? Yes he is. Are we conscious beings? Yes we are.These are facts.

No. Those are just assertions. I'll grant you that we are conscious beings, but you've got your work cut out for you in showing that God is a conscious being.

Do we care only for conscious beings (life)? Yes we are. Then how do you expect another conscious being to care less about us who we are conscious and more about unconscious structures?

By that reasoning, everyone should be enthusiastic about my field, psychology, as it is the study of minds. Yet we know that people have diverse interests. Some people are interested in, and fascinated by, unconscious systems. Astronomers for example. Perhaps the designer is an astronomer, not a psychologist or biologist. Whatever happens on this fragile rock is of less concern to him than watching neutron stars collide.

Something supernatural is attached to the natural, what we call supernatural is something that happens with intention from the Mind that preexisted the Natural world and we call the Creator, etc the image on the shroud of Turin was created by a short and intense burst of UV directional radiation. We know what electromagnetic energy is, the supernatural description goes to the fact that it was intended[/SIZE] to happen not because it is something invisible.

I struggle to see how this follows from my comment. Notably, acceptance of the first premise rules out a supernatural cause for the shroud's imprint, just as it rules out a supernatural cause for the universe. In positing the first premise, that causes are not unlike their effects, you've essentially decapitated your own argument.

Because the Physical Universe demands an absolute beginning, it was proven by BVG Theorem. I don't know why we still discuss it, prove me that the Universe is Eternal.

In my experience, these terms generate so much confusion because different people mean very different things by them. What do you mean by "absolute beginning," and in what way does "absolute beginning" imply a beginning from nothing?

We know that the current state of the universe began over 13 billion years ago. As we go back, further and further, we don't reach nothingness, but a spacetime boundary.

I can't prove to you that the universe is eternal, because I don't know that to be true. I am aware, however, of cyclical models that link the Big Bang to a Big Crunch. That might be construed as "eternal" I suppose.

Where is that interview? Vilenkin even admitted that quantum fluctuations can't be past eternal because they are not strong enough. I didn't used Vilenkin to support my whole Theology, i used him to support the claim that the Universe came from something non physical.

I'll try to find it. It was part of a compilation of interviews that included others as well.
 
Upvote 0

Lord Emsworth

Je ne suis pas une de vos élèves.
Oct 10, 2004
51,745
421
Through the cables and the underground ...
✟61,459.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Only carbon can create life, i am not an expert on that field but until now the other elements have proven inadequate to create life.

"Carbon" because the atom has 6 total electrons, 2 in the inner shell and 4 elecrtons in the outer shell for bonding. It is tetravalent. Studies on the vacuum structure of space reveal that it is tetrahedral in nature. This is the natural shape of equal minimum equal tension in radial space.

4 points are the minimum requirement to describe 3d space.

Why universes? Developing physical and self aware life requires space...lot's and lot's of space...and stuff. Nice green stuff in Goldilocks zones. Not too hot, not too cold, just right!

Rube Golberg machine how? I see it doing a great many things simultaneously with minimal parts, many of them preforming more than one task.


I am downright surprised at the downright materialistic view that both of you take. Really surprised.

Don't you believe in souls? Consciousness that can exist without physical form? Life after death, heavenly bodies? Or what have you.

Of course you do. (You both are even trying to argue for the existence of God! Think about it.)

So I am going to ask my quetions again. Maybe I'll get some sort of reply now. Hope springs eternal, after all:

Why carbon based lifeforms? And why universes?

Why this gigantic Rube Goldberg machine?
 
Upvote 0

Smidlee

Veteran
May 21, 2004
7,076
749
NC, USA
✟21,162.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Why carbon based lifeforms?
Because sulfur based life forms would stink?

If scientist discover a fine-tuned signal in space they would jump up and down claiming this is evidence of intelligent life in space without ever meeting a space alien. I would say that's pretty good evidence but when scientist discover the laws of physics seemed to be fine tuned for life they want to deny this points to the creator.
Why? because they want to find alien life but not God. Thus it's not a problem with evidence it's a heart problem.

P.S. Right now they would be happy to find any evidence whatsoever to points there were life on Mars.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

JimFit

Newbie
May 24, 2012
359
1
✟15,489.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
You seem to be missing the point of the counterargument, which is that life is an irrelevancy if the universe was fine-tuned for something else altogether. Why single life out as the purpose given that, with alterations in the constants, it's not just life that disappears?

The Universe is not conscious to care about life. The purpose of life isn't justified to the Universe as a structure but to the Creator who Created the structure for life to unfold.

No, that's not right. My claim is much more moderate than that. I'm suggesting that a universe of the kind depicted in Genesis lends itself more readily to the claim "The universe was fine-tuned for human existence." Given God's power, creating such a universe would presumably have been within his capacity.

I don't understand your point, imagine this, God creates us without anything else in space except us, how would this work? 2 humans inside a white infinite room? The goal was not to have humans only, the goal was these humans to prove that they are equal to God by behaving like Him in the rest of the Creation. What we call life is something that exists as an entity, everything affects everything, the only difference humans have from the rest of the life is that we can deny our consciousness and behave as we like.

Isn't that what you're doing with the fine-tuning argument; describing the creation of the world from a human standpoint (i.e., presuming that everything was fine-tuned just for us)?

Are black holes equal to humans now?

Really? How do you know that?

If the irregularity of the matter were bigger there would be only black holes, no stars.

No. Those are just assertions. I'll grant you that we are conscious beings, but you've got your work cut out for you in showing that God is a conscious being.

Can you prove me that intention happens in unconscious beings?
With that logic if i throw you a rock i can justify it by saying that the rock did it because now unconscious things have intention? LOL


By that reasoning, everyone should be enthusiastic about my field, psychology, as it is the study of minds. Yet we know that people have diverse interests. Some people are interested in, and fascinated by, unconscious systems. Astronomers for example. Perhaps the designer is an astronomer, not a psychologist or biologist. Whatever happens on this fragile rock is of less concern to him than watching neutron stars collide.

So God is curious about something that He doesn't know (when He is Omniscience) and creates it (in our case black holes) to observe it like an astronomer? Your logic is flawed because you think that God behaves like a human. You said that Black holes are more important to God than us, i say you are wrong because conscious beings only care about conscious beings, even knowledge that is obtained through observation to unconscious things has the motivation from the community and its not separated from other conscious beings.

I struggle to see how this follows from my comment. Notably, acceptance of the first premise rules out a supernatural cause for the shroud's imprint, just as it rules out a supernatural cause for the universe. In positing the first premise, that causes are not unlike their effects, you've essentially decapitated your own argument.

Have you seen many people transforming to light and escape death? Only the Creator could tune the laws to happen, He chose to do it for Jesus body to validate his teachings about love, forgiveness, mercy, equality, humility, faith and so on...
I said that something that is created needs a cause, i didn't said that the cause must be physical, the fact that the Universe is not eternal proves a transcendental cause.

In my experience, these terms generate so much confusion because different people mean very different things by them. What do you mean by "absolute beginning," and in what way does "absolute beginning" imply a beginning from nothing?

We know that the current state of the universe began over 13 billion years ago. As we go back, further and further, we don't reach nothingness, but a spacetime boundary.

I can't prove to you that the universe is eternal, because I don't know that to be true. I am aware, however, of cyclical models that link the Big Bang to a Big Crunch. That might be construed as "eternal" I suppose.

What i mean by absolute beginning is that the Universe we have now didn't always existed, as you said even space and time had to be created.

As we go back we reach a wall, how can something exists without space and time if it is physical? You said it that we reach a spacetime boundary. The only thing that can exist is a Spaceless Timeless Mind. Why a mind? Because only a mind has intention, anything else faces the lottery problem, the lottery can't draw letters when the lotto is filled only with numbers. The letter is the transcendental cause and the number is the physical cause.

Ekpyrotic cyclic models, is subject to the Borde-Guth-Vilenkin theorem and so is admitted to involve a beginning of the universe. The second group, Pre-Big Bang models, cannot be extended into the infinite past if they are taken to be realistic descriptions of the universe. The third group, the string landscape models, feature the popular multiverse scenario. They are also subject to the Borde-Guth-Vilenkin theorem and so imply a beginning of the universe. Thus, string cosmological models do not serve to avert the prediction of the standard model that the universe began to exist.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Loudmouth

Contributor
Aug 26, 2003
51,417
6,141
Visit site
✟98,005.00
Faith
Agnostic
Thunderclouds don't act to describe it as a creation. I already debunked the Physical necessity of the Universe Creation.

You debunked nothing. Thunderclouds create. There is no requirement for a consciousness in order for something to create.

I leave that to the experts.

False. You reject what the experts claim at every turn, such as the 99% of degreed biologists that accept evolution.

We are not talking about how, we are talking about intention or chance.

We are talking about how. You have presented zero evidence for any mechanism that would produce a universe. None.

Can show me where gravity suddenly decided to act and change values and catapulted people in the space?

Can you show me where God did anything? Where is your evidence?

I can't prove a negative.

Then quit claiming that you have.

Where do we observe Consciousness?

Where are your observations of God doing anything?

The unconscious cannot create because it is determined by physical laws.

Thunderclouds create lightning.
 
Upvote 0

Archaeopteryx

Wanderer
Jul 1, 2007
22,229
2,608
✟70,740.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
The Universe is not conscious to care about life. The purpose of life isn't justified to the Universe as a structure but to the Creator who Created the structure for life to unfold.

Why does that matter if the universe was created for a purpose other than life? You are assuming that the purpose must be life and not something else altogether. Why?

I don't understand your point, imagine this, God creates us without anything else in space except us, how would this work? 2 humans inside a white infinite room? The goal was not to have humans only, the goal was these humans to prove that they are equal to God by behaving like Him in the rest of the Creation. What we call life is something that exists as an entity, everything affects everything, the only difference humans have from the rest of the life is that we can deny our consciousness and behave as we like.

No, I don't think it would be "us" anymore if he created us inside a "white infinite room." My point was that a universe of the kind depicted in Genesis, which clearly places us at the centre, was within this God's capacity.

Are black holes equal to humans now?

No, they are superior to us, at least in the interests of this designer.

If the irregularity of the matter were bigger there would be only black holes, no stars.

Go on...

Can you prove me that intention happens in unconscious beings?
With that logic if i throw you a rock i can justify it by saying that the rock did it because now unconscious things have intention? LOL

No, and why would I need to do that? I never claimed that intention is a property of unconscious beings.

So God is curious about something that He doesn't know (when He is Omniscience) and creates it (in our case black holes) to observe it like an astronomer? Your logic is flawed because you think that God behaves like a human.

If my logic is flawed for that reason, then so is yours, because that's the sort of reasoning you are using.

You said that Black holes are more important to God than us, i say you are wrong because conscious beings only care about conscious beings, even knowledge that is obtained through observation to unconscious things has the motivation from the community and its not separated from other conscious beings.

The first point is wrong. Conscious beings do care about non-conscious things. The second point is irrelevant given God's purported omniscience.

Have you seen many people transforming to light and escape death? Only the Creator could tune the laws to happen, He chose to do it for Jesus body to validate his teachings about love, forgiveness, mercy, equality, humility, faith and so on...

Have I seen someone transform to light and escape death? No, and I wager that you haven't either.

I said that something that is created needs a cause, i didn't said that the cause must be physical, the fact that the Universe is not eternal proves a transcendental cause.

As I said in my previous post, call it 'transcendent' if you wish, by your first premise it still cannot be supernatural. Whatever it is, it must not be unlike its effect (that's your first premise).

What i mean by absolute beginning is that the Universe we have now didn't always existed, as you said even space and time had to be created.

Consider this sentence carefully. If the beginning of the universe means the beginning of time, then the universe has always existed, in that there is no time in which the universe did not exist.

As we go back we reach a wall, how can something exists without space and time if it is physical? You said it that we reach a spacetime boundary. The only thing that can exist is a Spaceless Timeless Mind.

That's a non sequitur. We reach a boundary, and we are ignorant of whatever is beyond that boundary (if "beyond" even makes sense at that point).

Why a mind? Because only a mind has intention, anything else faces the lottery problem, the lottery can't draw letters when the lotto is filled only with numbers. The letter is the transcendental cause and the number is the physical cause.

Can a mind act on any intention if it exists without time? How does it decide to act?

Ekpyrotic cyclic models, is subject to the Borde-Guth-Vilenkin theorem and so is admitted to involve a beginning of the universe. The second group, Pre-Big Bang models, cannot be extended into the infinite past if they are taken to be realistic descriptions of the universe. The third group, the string landscape models, feature the popular multiverse scenario. They are also subject to the Borde-Guth-Vilenkin theorem and so imply a beginning of the universe. Thus, string cosmological models do not serve to avert the prediction of the standard model that the universe began to exist.

How does one go from "began to exist" to "began to exist from nothingness?" To my understanding, the models do not imply that sort of beginning at all.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

JimFit

Newbie
May 24, 2012
359
1
✟15,489.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
You debunked nothing. Thunderclouds create. There is no requirement for a consciousness in order for something to create.

I debunked nothing? Please prove me that the Universe is Eternal when everything points to a finite Universe.

cre·ate

verb \krē-ˈāt, ˈkrē-ˌ\ : to make or produce (something) : to cause (something new) to exist


Come back when Thunderclouds create kitties.



False. You reject what the experts claim at every turn, such as the 99% of degreed biologists that accept evolution.

Hm..what???

We are talking about how. You have presented zero evidence for any mechanism that would produce a universe. None.

I just said that the Universe needs a transcendent cause because it isn't eternal. Please prove me that the Universe is Eternal.

The mechanism that produces Universes exists only in a multiverse scenario where the mother Universe creates other Universes mechanically. God is not a machine. God caused the Universe to exist as the transcendent cause, anything else is science.

The notion of an infinite causal regress providing a proper explanation is fallacious, even if the succession of causes is infinite, the whole chain still requires a cause. To explain this, suppose there exists a causal chain of infinite contingent beings. If one asks the question, "Why are there any contingent beings at all?", it won’t help to be told that "There are contingent beings because other contingent beings caused them." That answer would just presuppose additional contingent beings. An adequate explanation of why some contingent beings exist would invoke a different sort of being, a necessary being that is not contingent. A response might suppose each individual is contingent but the infinite chain as a whole is not; or the whole infinite causal chain to be its own cause.

Can you show me where God did anything? Where is your evidence?

The whole Universe is proof of intention, i can't show you God to do anything because He isn't a physical God. It is like asking me to show you my consciousness do something.

Then quit claiming that you have.

The evidence for a Creator is His Creation, you admit that the Universe exists, that's a fact we both admit, you then use the Universe as a separate creation from a Creator to prove that there is no intention behind it but still you can't prove that the Universe is due to chance or that randomness exists. The default position is that the Universe is finite and fine tuned, to destroy these arguments you must prove me that the Fine Tuning is due to chance and that the Universe is Eternal and doesn't need a cause to exist.

Where are your observations of God doing anything?

The Fine Tuning is due to intention, disprove it.


Thunderclouds create lightning.

Thunderclouds doesn't create, to create you must be conscious, you use the word created wrong. Pop corn machines create pop corns, see? Wrong use of the word.
 
Upvote 0

Loudmouth

Contributor
Aug 26, 2003
51,417
6,141
Visit site
✟98,005.00
Faith
Agnostic
I debunked nothing? Please prove me that the Universe is Eternal when everything points to a finite Universe.

You are changing your claims. You claimed that a consciousness was required for something to be created. Thunderclouds are not conscious, and they create lightning. You are wrong.

Come back when Thunderclouds create kitties.

Come back when you are willing to act like an adult.
 
Upvote 0

Kylie

Defeater of Illogic
Nov 23, 2013
14,681
5,240
✟302,097.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Hm..what???

He is claiming that you reject evolution when the vast majority of biologists accept it as true.

The whole Universe is proof of intention, i can't show you God to do anything because He isn't a physical God. It is like asking me to show you my consciousness do something.

How have you determined that it is proof of intention? The Bible says that the universe was created for humans. Why then is the huge majority of it hostile to human life? What does it say about the "creator's" intentions when the creation is nearly entirely anti-human?

Seems much more likely that the creator made the universe for all that vacuum that's out there. Very supportive to vacuum.

The evidence for a Creator is His Creation, you admit that the Universe exists, that's a fact we both admit, you then use the Universe as a separate creation from a Creator to prove that there is no intention behind it but still you can't prove that the Universe is due to chance or that randomness exists. The default position is that the Universe is finite and fine tuned, to destroy these arguments you must prove me that the Fine Tuning is due to chance and that the Universe is Eternal and doesn't need a cause to exist.

Ah yes, this creation that is clearly a creation. I'll come back to this...

The Fine Tuning is due to intention, disprove it.

The burden of proof would seem to be on you here. You are making the claim that there is an intention there, so you must support it. You don't get to make any nonsense claim you want and then say your claims are valid unless someone else can disprove them.

Thunderclouds doesn't create, to create you must be conscious, you use the word created wrong. Pop corn machines create pop corns, see? Wrong use of the word.

Okay, so let's establish some words and their definitions then, shall we?

I will use the word "create" (for the purposes of this discussion) to mean what you say here. Something is "created" if there is some intelligent agency at work. When I write some music, I CREATE music because I am taking conscious action. When my husband made hamburgers for dinner last night, he CREATED hamburgers because he had to take conscious action. I will leave out any and all implications of artistic merit from this, so a creation does not need to be an artistic thing. I can create a clean shower just as easily as I can create a piece of music.

On the other hand, I will use the word "cause" to refer to something that came about without some conscious choice as to the outcome. Thunderclouds CAUSE lightning, for example. This can also happen when people make things but have no control over the outcome. When I pour a bowl of oats and raisins for breakfast, I CAUSE a particular arrangement of raisins int he bowl. But since I do not choose where each raisin goes, I do not CREATE it.

I hope that the meanings of each word as I am using them here is clear to you, and I also hope that the difference between the two is clear.

Now, tell me...

How can you tell them difference between the two? If you see a particular thing, how can you tell if it was the result of some CAUSAL influence or a CREATIVE influence? You said earlier that the universe is a creation. How would you tell the difference between a created universe and a caused universe?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

JimFit

Newbie
May 24, 2012
359
1
✟15,489.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
Why does that matter if the universe was created for a purpose other than life? You are assuming that the purpose must be life and not something else altogether. Why?

You use the same argument with the black holes. Life was not the main plan of God because He likes to create stars and stare at them. I think i said why life is more important than a rock for God.
Intelligent Life was an inescapable fact

Carbon-12 --Does Its Creation in Stars Suggest a Universe Fine-Tuned for Life? (Today's Most Popular)

You have no arguments, YOU WANT YOUR LIFE TO HAVE THE SAME VALUE AS A ROCK!



No, I don't think it would be "us" anymore if he created us inside a "white infinite room." My point was that a universe of the kind depicted in Genesis, which clearly places us at the centre, was within this God's capacity.

You are the center of my attention, does that mean that you are in the center of the room? Of course there is no centre of the universe even if we take the bible literally! According to the standard theories of cosmology, the universe started with a "Big Bang" about 14 thousand million years ago and has been expanding ever since. Yet there is no centre to the expansion; it is the same everywhere. The Big Bang should not be visualised as an ordinary explosion. The universe is not expanding out from a centre into space; rather, the whole universe is expanding and it is doing so equally at all places.

No, they are superior to us, at least in the interests of this designer.

Why do you claim that they are superior to us? They don't even wonder why they exist.


That's it. Do you see how simple it was for God to have a Universe filled with Black holes?

No, and why would I need to do that? I never claimed that intention is a property of unconscious beings.

You said that God is not conscious, if i supported that i wouldn't have a problem to call physical necessity or nothingness God, they have the same properties according to this, both unconscious.

If my logic is flawed for that reason, then so is yours, because that's the sort of reasoning you are using.

I never said that the human Mind equals God's Mind when it does just "something", in this case to observe the black holes. If someone cares more about the black hole than his baby by definition he is not good.


The first point is wrong. Conscious beings do care about non-conscious things. The second point is irrelevant given God's purported omniscience.

So we are doing science for our egoism? No offering to the community? Have you seen lots of Scientists to discover something and keep the discovery for themselves? Lol
Science started when different conscious beings came together. Your argument is not only fallacious, it also destroys the meaning we do science.

Have I seen someone transform to light and escape death? No, and I wager that you haven't either.

Criminologists doesn't have to see the criminal act to have a suspect.

As I said in my previous post, call it 'transcendent' if you wish, by your first premise it still cannot be supernatural. Whatever it is, it must not be unlike its effect (that's your first premise).

Even the notion of an infinite causal regress providing a proper explanation is fallacious, even if the succession of causes is infinite, the whole chain still requires a cause. You can't escape the first cause.
You still try to lock God inside the Physical Universe, God created this Law
because it applies only to the Physical Universe which is Finite.


Consider this sentence carefully. If the beginning of the universe means the beginning of time, then the universe has always existed, in that there is no time in which the universe did not exist.

Space = Time
Of course the Universe didn't "exist" before someone to cause it to exist.
That means that the cause is spaceless and timeless.

That's a non sequitur. We reach a boundary, and we are ignorant of whatever is beyond that boundary (if "beyond" even makes sense at that point).

See? An atheist will say that the Universe popped out of Nothingness instead of follow the simple way to conclude that the Universe was caused by something timeless and spaceless. Remember quantum physics can't help you either, quantum vacuum still demands space to exist.


Can a mind act on any intention if it exists without time? How does it decide to act?

Are minds physical? If they are how can you measure a mind?


How does one go from "began to exist" to "began to exist from nothingness?" To my understanding, the models do not imply that sort of beginning at all.

These models are wrong therefor there is no meaning to analyze it anymore.
 
Upvote 0

Smidlee

Veteran
May 21, 2004
7,076
749
NC, USA
✟21,162.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
He is claiming that you reject evolution when the vast majority of biologists accept it as true.

?
I wonder how many are doing what James Tour advised, "if you have doubts about Darwinism is better to keep them to yourself in you value your career in science (unless you want to be on the firing line of ID or creationism.)
 
Upvote 0

Loudmouth

Contributor
Aug 26, 2003
51,417
6,141
Visit site
✟98,005.00
Faith
Agnostic
I wonder how many are doing what James Tour advised, "if you have doubts about Darwinism is better to keep them to yourself in you value your career in science (unless you want to be on the firing line of ID or creationism.)

If you have doubts about Heliocentrism and want to have a career in astronomy, then you should probably keep your opinions to yourself.

Do you know why? Because being absolutely wrong about the most basic concepts in your field of work casts you in a bad light.
 
Upvote 0

Kylie

Defeater of Illogic
Nov 23, 2013
14,681
5,240
✟302,097.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
I wonder how many are doing what James Tour advised, "if you have doubts about Darwinism is better to keep them to yourself in you value your career in science (unless you want to be on the firing line of ID or creationism.)

Oh please. If someone has doubts about evolution and they can't support their claims, they rightly deserve to be laughed at.

If I said that the sky was green with flashing purple polka dots and I couldn't produce any evidence to support that claim, I'd deserve to be laughed at as well.

If someone makes a claim that goes against well-supported science and yet they can't produce any evidence to support their view, then they deserve to be laughed at.

But if someone claims that some widely accepted aspect of science is wrong and then produces well documented evidence to support it, and that evidence withstands testing, then they might just have something.

If you think science is a popularity contest, then you are doing it wrong.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums