Book Review: Benefit of the Doubt

franky67

Senior Veteran
Jul 22, 2005
4,157
320
98
✟21,351.00
Faith
Word of Faith
For instance in Mark 16:20 it says they went out and preached, while God confirmed the word by signs following. And to confirm this in Luke 7, when John the Baptist sent word asking if Jesus was the one , Jesus said He was indeed, because these signs accompany the preaching of the Gospel. ie, confirmation of verse 20 of Mark 16.

So if God said it, yes I will name and claim it. If I don't, then I don't believe what He said.
franky67

And what IF what you believe he said is wrong?
Jim

Are you asking "what is, is " ?

How can one interpret Mark 16:20 to mean anything but that God manifested miracles to prove what His apostles said was truth.

And this is still in effect today, because there is no teaching in the word that it is not true for today.
 
Upvote 0

JimB

Legend
Jul 12, 2004
26,337
1,595
Nacogdoches, Texas
Visit site
✟34,757.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Franky, You probably already know this but ... While I personally believe Mark 16.20, I do acknowledge that many evangelical NT scholars do not accept Mark 16.9-20 as part of the canon or are at least dubious about its inclusion. That final section of Mark’s Gospel is not found in more ancient MSS of the NT discovered since those the KJ translators had access to, causing modern translators to conclude that it was added by NT copyists at some later date, either to prove a theological point or because they wanted a more positive ending to the Gospel. If they are right, Mark 16.20 is the addition of men to the Word of God, not the word itself. So, no matter what I “believe” about Mark 16.9-20, I have to use it as “proof” only with a grain of salt. :)
 
Upvote 0

Optimax

Senior Veteran
May 7, 2006
17,659
448
New Mexico
✟41,659.00
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
No, I am saying (with Oswald Chambers), "Faith is deliberate confidence in the character of God whose ways you may not understand at the time." That is Great Faith. :)

The only time that great faith was mentioned by Jesus is recorded in Mt. 8 and Lu 7.

The man's "great faith" was revealed in verse 8.

All the man needed was for Jesus to just say "in a word".

All the man needed was Jesus' word.

He did not need for Jesus to be there where the sick was.

He did not need for hands to be laid on the sick.

All he needed was Jesus to speak the words of healing.

Then he explained to Jesus why.

The man understood authority.

Then man understood the authority that was in the words Jesus spoke.

Great faith.

Luke 7:7-9

7 Wherefore neither thought I myself worthy to come unto thee: but say in a word, and my servant shall be healed.

8 For I also am a man set under authority, having under me soldiers, and I say unto one, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.

9 When Jesus heard these things, he marvelled at him, and turned him about, and said unto the people that followed him, I say unto you, I have not found so great faith , no, not in Israel.
KJV
 
Upvote 0

JimB

Legend
Jul 12, 2004
26,337
1,595
Nacogdoches, Texas
Visit site
✟34,757.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
The only time that great faith was mentioned by Jesus is recorded in Mt. 8 and Lu 7.

The man's "great faith" was revealed in verse 8.

All the man needed was for Jesus to just say "in a word".

All the man needed was Jesus' word.

He did not need for Jesus to be there where the sick was.

He did not need for hands to be laid on the sick.

All he needed was Jesus to speak the words of healing.

Then he explained to Jesus why.

The man understood authority.

Then man understood the authority that was in the words Jesus spoke.

Great faith.

Luke 7:7-9

7 Wherefore neither thought I myself worthy to come unto thee: but say in a word, and my servant shall be healed.

8 For I also am a man set under authority, having under me soldiers, and I say unto one, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.

9 When Jesus heard these things, he marvelled at him, and turned him about, and said unto the people that followed him, I say unto you, I have not found so great faith , no, not in Israel.
KJV
Jesus commended the centurion as having “great faith” because he openly demonstrated his trust in Jesus’ ability (and willingness). The lesson is, if we will trust God in Christ to do what is right at the same level as the centurion did, we will also exhibit great faith. Oswald Chambers said, "Faith is deliberate confidence in the character of God whose ways you may not understand at the time." I believe the centurion trusted Jesus to do what was right, regardless of what happened. :)
 
Upvote 0

Optimax

Senior Veteran
May 7, 2006
17,659
448
New Mexico
✟41,659.00
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Jesus commended the centurion as having “great faith” because he openly demonstrated his trust in Jesus’ ability (and willingness). The lesson is, if we will trust God in Christ to do what is right at the same level as the centurion did, we will also exhibit great faith. Oswald Chambers said, "Faith is deliberate confidence in the character of God whose ways you may not understand at the time." I believe the centurion trusted Jesus to do what was right, regardless of what happened. :)

The centurion trusted what Jesus said.

The centurion specifically said that.

The centurion trusted Jesus to do what was asked of Him.

The centurion had confidence in what Jesus would say.

The centurion believed what Jesus said and acted accordingly.

That is faith.

Faith is not blind.

Faith must have God's Word.
 
Upvote 0

JimB

Legend
Jul 12, 2004
26,337
1,595
Nacogdoches, Texas
Visit site
✟34,757.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
The centurion trusted what Jesus said.

The centurion specifically said that.

The centurion trusted Jesus to do what was asked of Him.

The centurion had confidence in what Jesus would say.

The centurion believed what Jesus said and acted accordingly.

That is faith.

Faith is not blind.

Faith must have God's Word.
The centurion did more than trust what Jesus said … he trusted Him. Even a deaf person can trust without being able to hear a word; blind and illiterate and mentally deficient people can trust without being able to read or understand anything that is told them; even those who are politically deprived of the Word and have never heard a scripture quoted can believe. That’s why I say that Great faith has nothing to do with learning/understanding and everything to do with trust/relationship. You seem to be under the impression that faith is intellectual and can be taught in a classroom. To me faith is more than a doctrine—it is simple trust in a Person. And I can be as ignorant as a post and do that. :)
 
Upvote 0

Optimax

Senior Veteran
May 7, 2006
17,659
448
New Mexico
✟41,659.00
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
The centurion did more than trust what Jesus said … he trusted Him. Even a deaf person can trust without being able to hear a word; blind and illiterate and mentally deficient people can trust without being able to read or understand anything that is told them; even those who are politically deprived of the Word and have never heard a scripture quoted can believe. That’s why I say that Great faith has nothing to do with learning/understanding and everything to do with trust/relationship. You seem to be under the impression that faith is intellectual and can be taught in a classroom. To me faith is more than a doctrine—it is simple trust in a Person. And I can be as ignorant as a post and do that. :)

Yet scripture says that faith "comes" by hearing and hearing by the word of God.
 
Upvote 0

JimB

Legend
Jul 12, 2004
26,337
1,595
Nacogdoches, Texas
Visit site
✟34,757.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Yet scripture says that faith "comes" by hearing and hearing by the word of God.
All modern translations of the Bible translate the phrase “word of God” in Romans 10.17 as “the message of Christ,” i.e., the Gospel, the Good News that Jesus came into the world to save sinners. Hence faith comes through hearing the Gospel. The scripture is talking about saving faith which only comes through the message of/about Jesus Christ. Here’s a sampling of how Romans 10.17 appears in other translations:

ASV
So belief cometh of hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

AMP
So faith comes by hearing [what is told], and what is heard comes by the preaching [of the message that came from the lips] of Christ (the Messiah Himself).

CEB
So, faith comes from listening, but it’s listening by means of Christ’s message.

CEV
No one can have faith without hearing the message about Christ.

ESV
So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

GW
So faith comes from hearing the message, and the message that is heard is what Christ spoke.

HCSB
So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the message about Christ.

LEB
Consequently, faith comes by hearing, and hearing through the word about Christ.

NCV
So faith comes from hearing the Good News, and people hear the Good News when someone tells them about Christ.

NIV
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.

NLT
So faith comes from hearing, that is, hearing the Good News about Christ.

RSV
So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ.​
Incidentally, that word “comes” is in italics in my KJV/NKJV, which means the word does not appear in the original but was added by the translators to provide a better understanding of the verse. :)
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Optimax

Senior Veteran
May 7, 2006
17,659
448
New Mexico
✟41,659.00
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
All modern translations of the Bible translate the phrase “word of God” in Romans 10.17 as “the message of Christ,” i.e., the Gospel, the Good News that Jesus came into the world to save sinners. Hence faith comes through hearing the Gospel. The scripture is talking about saving faith which only comes through the message of/about Jesus Christ. Here’s a sampling of how Romans 10.17 appears in other translations:

ASV
So belief cometh of hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

AMP
So faith comes by hearing [what is told], and what is heard comes by the preaching [of the message that came from the lips] of Christ (the Messiah Himself).

CEB
So, faith comes from listening, but it’s listening by means of Christ’s message.

CEV
No one can have faith without hearing the message about Christ.

ESV
So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

GW
So faith comes from hearing the message, and the message that is heard is what Christ spoke.

HCSB
So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the message about Christ.

LEB
Consequently, faith comes by hearing, and hearing through the word about Christ.

NCV
So faith comes from hearing the Good News, and people hear the Good News when someone tells them about Christ.

NIV
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.

NLT
So faith comes from hearing, that is, hearing the Good News about Christ.

RSV
So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ.​
Incidentally, that word “comes” is in italics in my KJV/NKJV, which means the word does not appear in the original but was added by the translators to provide a better understanding of the verse. :)

That is true.

That is why I put "comes" as you did.

The verse actually reads "Faith by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

A word study of the two words translated "by" reveal they are different words.

Also gives great insight into the verse.
 
Upvote 0

JimB

Legend
Jul 12, 2004
26,337
1,595
Nacogdoches, Texas
Visit site
✟34,757.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
That is true.

That is why I put "comes" as you did.

The verse actually reads "Faith by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

A word study of the two words translated "by" reveal they are different words.

Also gives great insight into the verse.

:)




.
 
Upvote 0

franky67

Senior Veteran
Jul 22, 2005
4,157
320
98
✟21,351.00
Faith
Word of Faith
BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT
BREAKING THE IDOL OF CERTAINTY

Gregory Boyd


Boyd contends that most of what we call “faith” is just a blind “certainty” that what we want to happen will happen if we just believe hard enough. In the process he confronts the Health-Wealth-Prosperity teaching, saying that model of faith is unbiblical, more akin to pagan magic than biblical faith. Rather than trusting God's character, it promotes a belief in one’s ability to manipulate God, hence idolatry, faith in faith rather than in trusting the character of God. /quote]

I went back and read about Dr. Boyd, and his thoughts, expressed in an interview

The definition of false teaching would be saying in so many words, Jesus didn't really mean what He said, because He spoke against doubt more than once.

Dr Boyd spoke of a prayer meeting he attended where a sick person was to be prayed for, and the lady leading the prayer group quoted Jesus saying in Matthew 21:22
"and all things you ask in prayer, believing, you shall receive."

A simple statement, and the lady said for all who prayed to believe, and the person would be healed.

According to Dr. Boyd, all who prayed were intimidated by the word "believe", and felt they had to hype themselves up to a state of belief before the healing would happen. No hype, just simple faith that Jesus meant what He said

I think his statement, in bold above, should read "faith is believing what God said will happen, if we don't introduce doubt into our prayers."

Jesus said all who would enter the Kingdom of God must come as a little child, why do we have make it so complicated ?
 
Upvote 0

franky67

Senior Veteran
Jul 22, 2005
4,157
320
98
✟21,351.00
Faith
Word of Faith
Faith is the evidence of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. James says that if we waver we can expect nothing from God.

Yes, waver and doubt same greek word not only does it mean to not believe, but also to contend, or oppose, IOW to argue against.

Remember when Jesus came walking on water to the boat load of apostles, and Peter got out and walked on the water toward Jesus, then he realized he was doing the impossible, took his eyes off Jesus, and started sinking, Jesus said "why did you doubt? "
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

JimB

Legend
Jul 12, 2004
26,337
1,595
Nacogdoches, Texas
Visit site
✟34,757.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT
BREAKING THE IDOL OF CERTAINTY

Gregory Boyd


Boyd contends that most of what we call “faith” is just a blind “certainty” that what we want to happen will happen if we just believe hard enough. In the process he confronts the Health-Wealth-Prosperity teaching, saying that model of faith is unbiblical, more akin to pagan magic than biblical faith. Rather than trusting God's character, it promotes a belief in one’s ability to manipulate God, hence idolatry, faith in faith rather than in trusting the character of God. /quote]

I went back and read about Dr. Boyd, and his thoughts, expressed in an interview

The definition of false teaching would be saying in so many words, Jesus didn't really mean what He said, because He spoke against doubt more than once.

Dr Boyd spoke of a prayer meeting he attended where a sick person was to be prayed for, and the lady leading the prayer group quoted Jesus saying in Matthew 21:22
"and all things you ask in prayer, believing, you shall receive."

A simple statement, and the lady said for all who prayed to believe, and the person would be healed.

According to Dr. Boyd, all who prayed were intimidated by the word "believe", and felt they had to hype themselves up to a state of belief before the healing would happen. No hype, just simple faith that Jesus meant what He said

I think his statement, in bold above, should read "faith is believing what God said will happen, if we don't introduce doubt into our prayers."

Jesus said all who would enter the Kingdom of God must come as a little child, why do we have make it so complicated ?
We can over-complicate passages for sure, and that's a danger. But we can over-simplify them too, and that's equally dangerous.

BTW, did you know that the single English word “doubt” translates seven (7) Greek words, each with a slightly different meaning. It may be better exegesis to find out which word is used where. :)
 
Upvote 0

Optimax

Senior Veteran
May 7, 2006
17,659
448
New Mexico
✟41,659.00
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Does doubt have a benefit?

Doubt and fear run together.

What would have happened to his daughter if he had feared and doubted?

Mark 5:36

36 As soon as Jesus heard the word that was spoken, he saith unto the ruler of the synagogue, Be not afraid, only believe . KJV

She would have stayed dead.

Doubt and fear cause Peter to begin to sink.

Matt 14:31
And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt ? KJV

How many times in people's lives have they sunk because of doubt and fear?

How many times have you sunk in life because of doubt and fear?

Having to believe always intimidates the doubters and fearful.
 
Upvote 0