Motivation for the Trinity

OFavro · Oct 7, 2014

John 17:11 … Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are.
John 17:22 The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one,

There are two ‘onenesses’ spoken of in these verses – the ‘oneness’ of the Deity and the ‘oneness’ of the body of the Church – there is no attempt to suggest that the ‘oneness’ of the Deity IS the ‘oneness’ of the Church – but there is the suggestion that there is a similarity, a characteristic quality, shared between the two that Jesus desires to be instilled and maintained – that characteristic quality (IMO) is ‘agape’ – they will know we are Christian by our ‘agape’ for one another.

abacabb3 · Oct 7, 2014

Primi Agminis said:
Prior to ~110 AD no one really mentioned a Trinity. Ignatius wrote "...Christ, and to the Father, and to the Spirit." That is about the earliest mentioning of a Trinity in Christianity.

Older cultures also had a trinity in their system. These include Sumeria, Babylon, India, Egypt and Greece. It is not far fetched to think that Judaism and Christianity borrowed from other cultures.

You forgot Clement:
Have we not one God and one Christ and one Spirit of grace that was shed upon us? And is there not one calling in Christ? (46:6)

For as God liveth, and the Lord Jesus Christ liveth, and the Holy Spirit, who are the faith and the hope of the elect, so surely shall he, who with lowliness of mind and instant in gentleness hath without regretfulness performed the ordinances and commandments that are given by God, be enrolled and have a name among the number of them that are saved through Jesus Christ, through whom is the glory unto Him for ever and ever. (58:2)

Also Matthew 28. And all those pesky passages in the NT that call the Holy Spirit "He" and differentiate between Christ and the Father, which discounts the heresy of modalism

1213 · Oct 7, 2014

Der Alter said:
There was no culture which had a deity which was a Trinity or even a clearly defined triad. As for Mithra there is virtually nothing know about the Mithra cult. He was certainly not a trinity.

These are claimed to be other trinities.

- Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva = trimurti
- Oromazes, Mithra, Areimanios
- Osiris, Horus, Typhon
- Odin, Thor, Frey
- Agathon, logos, psyche

I think they are not same as Father, Son and Holy Spirit, especially when understood as the Bible teaches. However I think Trinity doctrine is not usually any more Biblical. In my opinion it is lead to direction that makes it possible to convey pagan teachings to Christianity. In my opinion it would be better to remain in just those words that are in the Bible.

BelCantoBaptist · Oct 7, 2014

1213 said:
These are claimed to be other trinities.

- Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva = trimurti
- Oromazes, Mithra, Areimanios
- Osiris, Horus, Typhon
- Odin, Thor, Frey
- Agathon, logos, psyche

I think they are not same as Father, Son and Holy Spirit, especially when understood as the Bible teaches. However I think Trinity doctrine is not usually any more Biblical. In my opinion it is lead to direction that makes it possible to convey pagan teachings to Christianity. In my opinion it would be better to remain in just those words that are in the Bible.

Your first examples are bogus and have been refuted literally hundreds and thousands of times since when they were first trotted out. Also, they were in PANTHEONS of Gods. Polytheism. No Trinitarian is a polytheist. The Trinity is not pagan, that's nothing but a line stolen from a Christadelphian/JW playbook.

Der Alte · Oct 7, 2014

1213 said:
These are claimed to be other trinities.

- Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva = trimurti
- Oromazes, Mithra, Areimanios
- Osiris, Horus, Typhon
- Odin, Thor, Frey
- Agathon, logos, psyche

I think they are not same as Father, Son and Holy Spirit, especially when understood as the Bible teaches. However I think Trinity doctrine is not usually any more Biblical. In my opinion it is lead to direction that makes it possible to convey pagan teachings to Christianity. In my opinion it would be better to remain in just those words that are in the Bible.

Thank you for your opinion but I prefer evidence. As someone else said this is the usual copy/paste from the JW/CD playbook. But there is no credible, verifiable, historical evidence that any society which could have influenced early Christianity had a trinity of deities or even a clearly defined triad.

FYI Mithra as a trinity is rubbish. There is virtually nothing factual known about Mithra. The Mithra cult left no written record of their beliefs or practices. One scholar Franz Cumont wrote a "history" based on nothing but his fanciful interpretation of Mithra statues and cave paintings.

RevelationTestament · Oct 7, 2014

nhoj said:
Well firstly, thanks for all the input. I'm convinced now that there was no credible reason to invent a Trinity belief so the conclusion is that the Trinity is strongly inferred from scripture.

Thanks Der Alter and others.

It wasn't something "invented" but something that evolved over several hundred years through theological writings and the creeds of councils.

Der Alte · Oct 7, 2014

RevelationTestament said:
It wasn't something "invented" but something that evolved over several hundred years through theological writings and the creeds of councils.

Wrong! The Trinity was written about by the early church fathers as early as 168 AD by Theophilus Of Antioch and Tertullian about 200 AD. But of course that is the SLC party line.

RevelationTestament · Oct 7, 2014

Der Alter said:
Wrong! The Trinity was written about by the early church fathers as early as 168 AD by Theophilus Of Antioch and Tertullian about 200 AD. But of course that is the SLC party line.

like I said:
that evolved over several hundred years through theological writings

funny that you can't point to the Bible for it....
but "one substance" and "eternal begottenness" does seem to wholly appear in later "theological writings" and creeds like I said.

BelCantoBaptist · Oct 7, 2014

RevelationTestament said:
RevelationTestament said:

like I said:
that evolved over several hundred years through theological writings

Click to expand...

They were written in response to direct challenges from heretics and unbelievers.

funny that you can't point to the Bible for it....
but "one substance" and "eternal begottenness" does seem to wholly appear in later "theological writings" and creeds like I said.

Click to expand...

False. I'm not sure you know about James White, but he wrote an entire book about this called the Forgotten Trinity. We have ample evidence in the Greek text itself that that prove the Trinity. Please Rev, show me where in the Bible Heavenly Father came to Earth to make Jesus with Mary Magdalene. Or show me Heavenly Mother.

RevelationTestament · Oct 8, 2014

BelCantoBaptist said:
They were written in response to direct challenges from heretics and unbelievers.

False. I'm not sure you know about James White, but he wrote an entire book about this called the Forgotten Trinity. We have ample evidence in the Greek text itself that that prove the Trinity. Please Rev, show me where in the Bible Heavenly Father came to Earth to make Jesus with Mary Magdalene. Or show me Heavenly Mother.

Click to expand...

No changing the subject - no one ever taught that Mary Magdalene had Jesus. If they did, I'll excommunicate them from myself
So let's talk about the "hidden" trinity in the Greek text. Please show or describe it in the text. I have spent some time trying to make sense of even "God" in the Greek NT, and tbh became utterly frustrated as it doesn't follow the OT, nor does it seem to follow hard and fast rhyme or reason.
So I am all ears. You have my attention. Show me this "secret."

Der Alte · Oct 8, 2014

RevelationTestament said:
like I said:
that evolved over several hundred years through theological writings

funny that you can't point to the Bible for it....
but "one substance" and "eternal begottenness" does seem to wholly appear in later "theological writings" and creeds like I said.

From the time of Jesus until 168 is NOT several hundred years! That is about 135 years. As for the word Trinity not appearing in the Bible if we are going by only what is written in the Bible then there are a lot of things in LDS not written in the Bible and not even written about by the early church. But once again a few Trinitarian texts.

Eleven passages, from the list of 86, below, which reveal the Triunity of God. Each passage shows Father, Son, and Holy Spirit having a different relationship, effect, role, purpose, etc., with respect to believers.

For example, #1, Titus 3:4, believers are SAVED BY Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, all three. We are SAVED BY,

1. the kindness and love of God our Savior,
2., by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost, shed on us abundantly
3. through Jesus Christ our Saviour, all three..

(1.) Tit 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of [1] God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of [2]the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he [3] shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

(2.) 2 Co 13:14 [1] The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and [2]the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, [3]be with you all. Amen.

(3.) Jud 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, [1] praying in the Holy Ghost,
21 Keep yourselves [2]in the love of God, looking for [3] the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

(4.) 1 Pet 1:2 Elect according to [1] the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of [2] the Spirit, [Repeated three times, cf. 2 Th 2.13, Ro 15:16] unto obedience and [3] sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: [Repeated twice, cf. Heb 9.14] Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

(5.) Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, [1] The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and [2] the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing, which shall be born of thee shall be called [3] the Son of God,.

(6.) Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be [1] baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive [2] the gift of the Holy Ghost,.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as [3] the Lord our God shall call,.

(7.) Rom 15:16 That I should be [1] the minister of Jesus Christ, to the Gentiles, ministering [2]the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being [3] sanctified by the Holy Ghost,.

(8.) Rom 15:12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be [1] a root of Jesse,, and he, that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him, shall the Gentiles trust.
13 Now [2] the God of hope, fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through [3] the power of the Holy Ghost,.

(9.) Heb 9.14 How much more, then, will [1] the blood of Christ, who [2] through the eternal Spirit, offered himself unblemished [3] to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!,

(10.) 2 Thess 2.13 But we ought always to [1] thank God, for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God, chose you to be saved through [2] the sanctifying work of the Spirit, and through belief in the truth.
14 He called you to this through our gospel, that you might [3] share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ,.

(11.) I Cor 12.3 Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
4 There are [1] different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit.,
5 There are [2] different kinds of service, but the same Lord.,
6 There are [3] different kinds of working, but the same God, works all of them in all men.

The Gospels and Acts

Mat 1:18-22, Mat 3:9-11, Mat 3:16-17, Mat 4:1-4, Mat 10:19-23, Mat 12:28, Mat 28:19, Mark 12:35-37, Lk 1:15-17, Lk 1:30-35 *, Lk 1:67-69, Lk 2:25-32, Lk 4:12-13, Lk 10:21, Lk 12:8-10, Jn 1:32-34, Jn 3:31-35, Jn 14:15-17, Jn 14:25, Jn 15:26, Jn 16:7-10, Jn 16:13-15, Jn 20:16-22, Acts 1:4-5, Acts 1:7-8, Acts 2:32-33, Acts 2:38-39*, Acts 4:8-10, Acts 4:24-26, Act 4:29-31, Acts 5:30-32, Acts 7:51-56, Acts 8:14-17, Acts 9:15-20 Acts 10:38, Acts 11:15-17, Acts 11:23-24, Acts 15:7-11, Acts 16:6-10, Acts 20:22-24, Acts 28:23-25.

The Pauline writings

Rom 1:1-4, Rom 5:1-5, Rom 8:9-11, Rom 8:13-16, Rom 8:26-29, Rom 15:12-13*, Rom 15:16*, , Rom 14:15-17, Rom 15:16, Rom 15:18-19, Rom 15:30, I Cor 2:8-10, I Cor 2:14-16, I Cor 6:9-11, I Cor 6:14-19, I Cor 12:3-5*, 2 Cor 1:20-22, 2 Cor 3:3-4, 2 Cor 13:14*, Gal 3:1-5, Gal 4:4-6, Gal 5:21-25, Eph 2:17-18, Eph 3:14-17, Eph 4:4-6, Eph 4:30-32, Eph 5:18-20, Phil 3:3, I Thess 1:4-6, 2 Thess 2:13-14*, I Tim 3:15-16, Titus 3:4-6.*

The General Epistles

Heb 2:3-4; Heb 6:3-6; Heb 9:14*; Heb 10:29-31; I Pet 1:2; * I Pet 3:18; I Pet 4:14; I Jn 3:21-24; I Jn 4:13-14; I Jn 5:6-9; Jud 1:20-21*.

Revelation

Rev 14:12-13, Rev 22:17-18,

Der Alte · Oct 8, 2014

1. There is one God! The Father is called/referred to as God, in scripture, but the Father is not the Son or the Spirit. Numerous vss. e.g., John 6:27, Gal 1:1, Gal 1:3, Eph 6:23, Philippians 2:11, 1 Thess 1:1, 2 Tim 1:2, Titus 1:4, 1 Peter 1:2, 2 Peter 1:17 et. al.

2. There is one God! The Son is called/referred to as God, in scripture, but the Son is not the Father or the Spirit. Thirty six (36) scripture which address or refer to Jesus as God, Matt 1:23, Isa 9:6, Luke 7:16, John 1:1, 3, 4, 10, 14, 18, 10:33, 5:18,8: 58, 12;24, 14:9, 17:5, 10, 20:28, Act 20:28, Rom 9:5, 2 Cor 4:4, Col 1:14-16, 2:9, Eph 3:9, Heb 1:1:2-3, 8-12, 3:3, Phi 2:6, 1 Tim 1:1, 3:16, 6:15, Tit 2;13, 2 Pet 1:1, 1 John 5:20, Rev 17:14, 19;16, 22:12-13

[1] Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

[2] Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

[3]Luk 7:16 And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.

[4] Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

[5] Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

[6] Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him[God created the world, Gen 1:1][/color], and the world knew him not.

[7] Joh 1:14 And the Word [acting on Himself] became flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

[8] Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten God, μονογενὴς θεὸς ] which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

[9] John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

[10] Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. [Jewish leaders speaking]

[11] Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.[John speaking]

[12] Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, before Abraham was, I am [ אהיה/ehyeh, I am, Ex 3:14].

[13] John 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his [Jesus] glory, and spake of him[יהוה/YHWH, Isa 6:1ff].

Isa 6:1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple

[14] Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

[15] Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was[Jesus was aware of His existence before the world was created.].

[16] Joh 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine[Everything that belongs to the Father belongs to Jesus]; and I am glorified in them.

[17] Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, [Jesus] My Lord and my God. [Thomas addressed Jesus as God and Jesus praised him.]

[18] Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

[19] Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever[Jesus called God]. Amen.

[20] 2 Cor 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

[21] Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
[22] Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

[23] Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

[24] Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

[25] Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever[God calls the Son, God]: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

[26] Heb 3:3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

[27] Phi 2:6 Who, being [existing] in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

[28] 1 Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh[Jesus called God], is justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

[29] 1 Tim 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ[Jesus called God], which is our hope;

[30] 1 Tim 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;[The lamb is king of kings, Rev 17:14, Jesus is king of kings, Rev 19:16, God is Lord of Lords Deu 10:17]

[31] Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ[Jesus called God];
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

[32] 2 Pet 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ[Jesus called God]:

[33] 1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life[Jesus called God].

[34] Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings[יהוה/YHWH, Deu 10:17]: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

[35] Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS[יהוה/YHWH, Deu 10:17].

[36] Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be[יהוה/YHWH, Isa 40:10].
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.[יהוה/YHWH, Isa 44:6]

3. There is one God! The Holy Spirit is called/referred to as God, in scripture, but the Spirit is not the Father or the Son. Acts 5:3-4, Acts 28:25-27.

Scripture which identify the Holy Spirit as God

Act 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

This passage, Act 5:3-4, above, identifies the Holy Spirit as God by equating lying to the H.S. with lying to God.

Act 28:25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

This passage Act 28:25-27, above, identifies the Holy Spirit as YHWH by saying the H.S. spoke words which were spoken by YHWH, in Isa 6:8-10, below.

Isa 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, [יהוה/YHWH] saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed

Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. [O.T. see יהוה/YHWH, Jer 31:33-34]

This passage, Heb 10:15-17, above, identifies the Holy Spirit as YHWH by saying words spoken by YHWH, in Jer 31:33-34, below, were spoken by the H.S.

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, [יהוה/YHWH] I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more

Heb 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. [O.T. יהוה/YHWH, Ps 95:10]
11[/b] So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) [O.T. יהוה/YHWH, Deu 1:34-35]

This passage, Heb 3:7-11, above, identifies the Holy Spirit as YHWH by saying words spoken by YHWH in Psa 95:10-11, and Deu 1:34-35, below, were spoken by the Holy Spirit.

Psa 95:10 Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways:
11 Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.

Deu 1:34 And the LORD [יהוה/YHWH] heard the voice of your words, and was wroth, and sware, saying,
35 Surely there shall not one of these men of this evil generation see that good land, which I sware to give unto your fathers,

There is one God! The Father, the Son, and the Spirit, all three are called/ referred to as God, in scripture, but each has a distinct mind, will, and self; John 16:13, 1 Cor 12:11, Philippians 2:5, John 5:26, Rom 8:27, Matthew 26:39.

RevelationTestament · Oct 8, 2014

I am not talking about the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit der Alter. I can see from the Book of Mormon they are one God, which is more than the Bible says. I am talking about the DOCTRINE of the trinity. All the stuff in the creeds that get repeated every Sunday in "orthodox" churches - "I believe" this and "I believe" that. That is what evolved. And yep it started over 100 yrs later with the word "trinity," and evolved from there to include "one substance," "eternal begottenness," "co-equal," etc. Did Jesus tell us to worship Him as the "Most High God," El Elyon? Or is He the Son of El Elyon as Luke says?

BelCantoBaptist · Oct 8, 2014

RevelationTestament said:
I am not talking about the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit der Alter. I can see from the Book of Mormon they are one God, which is more than the Bible says. I am talking about the DOCTRINE of the trinity. All the stuff in the creeds that get repeated every Sunday in "orthodox" churches - "I believe" this and "I believe" that. That is what evolved. And yep it started over 100 yrs later with the word "trinity," and evolved from there to include "one substance," "eternal begottenness," "co-equal," etc. Did Jesus tell us to worship Him as the "Most High God," El Elyon? Or is He the Son of El Elyon as Luke says?

Rev, I don't know how many times I've had to say this in this forum. The creeds were not written to supplant or undermine the Bible. Creedal standards are not independent assertions of truth. They are derivative from and subordinate to the only source and standard of Christian truth: the Bible, the God-breathed, infallible, and inerrant Word of the Living God.
No the Biblical concepts of orthodox Christianity did not evolve, they were always there, and they had to be defined and defended from heresy such as Docetism, Marcionism, Arianism, etc. So the fact that the "givens" had to be spelled out does not make them evolutions of doctrine.

Jesus said to honor Him as we honor the Father, and that if we don't we do not Honor the Father. So how do you Honor the Father Rev? There is no "Most High God" vs "Lesser God" distinction. Jesus is not a Demi-God with the Father over Him. The Godhead is not an office shared by three separate Gods.

Der Alte · Oct 8, 2014

RevelationTestament said:
I am not talking about the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit der Alter. I can see from the Book of Mormon they are one God, which is more than the Bible says. I am talking about the DOCTRINE of the trinity. All the stuff in the creeds that get repeated every Sunday in "orthodox" churches - "I believe" this and "I believe" that. That is what evolved. And yep it started over 100 yrs later with the word "trinity," and evolved from there to include "one substance," "eternal begottenness," "co-equal," etc. Did Jesus tell us to worship Him as the "Most High God," El Elyon? Or is He the Son of El Elyon as Luke says?

I pastor in a major denomination and have pastored in two others and preached in yet a third, and I have never recited anything but the Apostles creed. Guess you missed the bulk of my post. There is one God. The Father is God but He is not the Son or the Holy Spirit. The Son is God but He is not the Father or the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God but He is not the Son or the Father. There is one God. That is the long way of saying "Trinity."

RevelationTestament · Oct 8, 2014

BelCantoBaptist said:
Rev, I don't know how many times I've had to say this in this forum. The creeds were not written to supplant or undermine the Bible. Creedal standards are not independent assertions of truth. They are derivative from and subordinate to the only source and standard of Christian truth: the Bible, the God-breathed, infallible, and inerrant Word of the Living God.
No the Biblical concepts of orthodox Christianity did not evolve, they were always there, and they had to be defined and defended from heresy such as Docetism, Marcionism, Arianism, etc. So the fact that the "givens" had to be spelled out does not make them evolutions of doctrine.

The given of "one substance" or homoosious was not always there ha. In fact that term was "anathematized" by a prior council to the Nicene Creed. All the stuff in those creeds is just so much chaff they used to "defend from heresy" as you say. They needed a way to oust Arius so they used homoosious since he would not agree to a non-biblical term.

Jesus said to honor Him as we honor the Father, and that if we don't we do not Honor the Father. So how do you Honor the Father Rev? There is no "Most High God" vs "Lesser God" distinction. Jesus is not a Demi-God with the Father over Him. The Godhead is not an office shared by three separate Gods.

Ouch. Perhaps I should not force you to dig a bigger hole for yourself. Did Jesus come as the eternal Father? Jesus was not the Father, and He was not El Elyon, the Most High El, but His Son. That's scriptural - you are just making scriptureless assertions.
And in the God breathed Bible, Jesus tells us to pray to the Father in His name even as He did. Because it was the Father who did the works.

Imagican · Oct 9, 2014

Der Alter said:
Nonsense! There was no pagan society or culture which could have influenced the early church that had a trinity or even a clearly defined triad of deities. I have been asking for evidence right here for more than a decade and I have not seen the first piece of credible, verifiable, historical evidence yet and by that I don't mean the usual cut/paste from antitrinitarians-я-us.com. And there was no society which had a Sunday sabbath.

Multi part gods were worshiped in ancient Babylon, Egypt, Persia and by the Greeks.

The Romans, being the conquerors they were, adopted bits and pieces of MANY religions previous to the introduction of Christ.

By the time of Christ, Rome, even MOST of the cities of Italy, were as cosmopolitan as cities like New York are today. Many different peoples from ALL over the Empire had come to or been brought to Rome and other cities.

Along with all the different people came all their different religions.

One of the popular religions among the wealthy was Mithraism. The god 'Mithra' was said to be a TRIUNE god. Three parts in ONE god. As a matter of FACT, what little that is known of this religion is very similar to the 'Christianity' introduced by Constantine and those he chose to be the LEADERS of this 'new religion'.

But what we DO KNOW without any doubt, is that the concept of gods made up of numerous parts was NOT what the Jews followed. For no matter how one tries to 'talk around it', one plus one plus one equals THREE. Only in mystical and magical and fantasy worlds can one add one plus one plus one and have it come out equaling ONE.

And it's amazing how simple it is to debunk this 'trinity' concept. Yet those that have bought in to it will inevitably talk around in circles for days rather than accept the reality that it is nothing other than a PIPE DREAM. An utterly false concept that creates a FALSE God and FALSE Son and FALSE Spirit.

The God and Father of Christ is SINGULAR and it is this very singularity that separates HIM from all the other gods that men have created through the influence of Satan.

And the Bible explains that Christ, God's SON, was CREATED by God. The very nature of the words Father and Son SHOW that one exists BEFORE the other. That ONE is ultimately a PART of the other. A Father comes FIRST, and then THROUGH a Father comes a Son. And it's NOT 'rocket science'. It's so simple a child can understand it.

But try and teach that same child that God is both Father AND Son and then watch the confusion cloud up it's face. Try to explain that Jesus was both GOD and MAN and watch the doubt in their eyes.

But teach them the truth. Tell them that God is the Father and He created a Son in Jesus Christ and you will see that this is as easy for them to understand as teaching them that one plus one plus one equals THREE.

Paul was the apostle that preached the Gospel in ROME. And Paul NEVER taught a multi part God. Never WROTE of one. Never MENTIONED a multi part God. And the word 'trinity' was NEVER used by a SINGLE apostle that we have ANY evidence of. NONE. And it certainly does NOT EXIST in the Bible.

And it is IMPOSSIBLE to convince ME that a concept that the 'Church' held SO DEAR and place so much emphasis on, would NOT EVEN BE MENTIONED in the Bible if it were the TRUTH. For it would have been as easy as simply MENTIONING it if it were TRULY inspired by God.

As a matter of FACT, like every other principle God has delivered, He would have LED men to such understanding from the BEGINNING if there were any validity to 'trinity'. God would NOT have 'tricked' his 'chosen' in such a manner for thousands of years. Teaching them that He was the ONLY God. No 'other Gods beside Him'. And then, introduce a completely DIFFERENT understanding contradictory to that which they had been taught from the beginning. For God is NOT the author of confusion, but of PEACE as in all the churches of the saints.

And what we see in 'trinity' is UTTER confusion. The 'Church' MURDERING those that refused to accept it. Teaching it's followers to be followers of THEM and what THEY said rather than God and what He offered. Insisting that they place their faith in a 'man made CHURCH' instead of simply becoming and serving as members of the Body of Christ.

And 'trinity' is PROBABLY one of the MAIN reasons that the Catholic Church REFUSED to allow the Bible to be translated into other languages. They KNEW if the congregation was allowed to read the Bible in their OWN languages, they would clearly SEE that there is NO "TRINITY" in the Bible.

Blessings,

MEC

Der Alte · Oct 9, 2014

Imagican said:
Multi part gods were worshiped in ancient Babylon, Egypt, Persia and by the Greeks.

The Romans, being the conquerors they were, adopted bits and pieces of MANY religions previous to the introduction of Christ.

By the time of Christ, Rome, even MOST of the cities of Italy, were as cosmopolitan as cities like New York are today. Many different peoples from ALL over the Empire had come to or been brought to Rome and other cities.

Along with all the different people came all their different religions.

Nonsense! I guess you missed the part where I asked for credible, verifiable, historical evidence for any society which coiuld have influenced the early church which had a deity which was a trinity or even a triad of deities. All you are doing is repeating the same unsupported claims. There was no culture with a trinity or a triad of deities which could have influenced the early church. No! Zero! None!

One of the popular religions among the wealthy was Mithraism. The god 'Mithra' was said to be a TRIUNE god. Three parts in ONE god. As a matter of FACT, what little that is known of this religion is very similar to the 'Christianity' introduced by Constantine and those he chose to be the LEADERS of this 'new religion'.

Total nonsense! This shows me you don't know what you are talking about. There is virtually nothing known about Mithraism. They left no written accounts of what they believed or practiced. The only thing known about Mithraism was whatever they did they did in caves and in those caves were statues and paintings. One 19th century writer Franz Cumont wrote a made up history of Miitraism based on nothing but his fanciful interpretation of the statues and paintings. Mithra was not a trinity. Constantine did not bring anything! He was an Arian and did not believe in the trinity himself. And he chose no leaders for any religion.

But what we DO KNOW without any doubt, is that the concept of gods made up of numerous parts was NOT what the Jews followed. For no matter how one tries to 'talk around it', one plus one plus one equals THREE. Only in mystical and magical and fantasy worlds can one add one plus one plus one and have it come out equaling ONE.

Mostly uninformed nonsense! There are no numerous parts. There is one God. The Father is God but He is not the Son or the Holy Spirit. The Son is God but He is not the Father or the Holy Spirit.The Holy Spirit is God but He is not the Son or the Father. There is one God.

And it's amazing how simple it is to debunk this 'trinity' concept. Yet those that have bought in to it will inevitably talk around in circles for days rather than accept the reality that it is nothing other than a PIPE DREAM. An utterly false concept that creates a FALSE God and FALSE Son and FALSE Spirit.

You have debunked nothing! No circles nothing but scripture.

There is one God! The Son is called/referred to as God, in scripture, but the Son is not the Father or the Spirit. Thirty six (36) scripture which address or refer to Jesus as God, Matt 1:23, Isa 9:6, Luke 7:16, John 1:1, 3, 4, 10, 14, 18, 10:33, 5:18,8: 58, 12;24, 14:9, 17:5, 10, 20:28, Act 20:28, Rom 9:5, 2 Cor 4:4, Col 1:14-16, 2:9, Eph 3:9, Heb 1:1:2-3, 8-12, 3:3, Phi 2:6, 1 Tim 1:1, 3:16, 6:15, Tit 2;13, 2 Pet 1:1, 1 John 5:20, Rev 17:14, 19;16, 22:12-13

[1] Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

[2] Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

[3]Luk 7:16 And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.

[4] Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

[5] Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

[6] Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him[God created the world, Gen 1:1][/color], and the world knew him not.

[7] Joh 1:14 And the Word [acting on Himself] became flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

[8] Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten God, μονογενὴς θεὸς ] which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

[9] John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

[10] Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. [Jewish leaders speaking]

[11] Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.[John speaking]

[12] Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, before Abraham was, I am [ אהיה/ehyeh, I am, Ex 3:14].

[13] John 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his [Jesus] glory, and spake of him[יהוה/YHWH, Isa 6:1ff].

Isa 6:1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple

[14] Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

[15] Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was[Jesus was aware of His existence before the world was created.].

[16] Joh 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine[Everything that belongs to the Father belongs to Jesus]; and I am glorified in them.

[17] Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, [Jesus] My Lord and my God. [Thomas addressed Jesus as God and Jesus praised him.]

[18] Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

[19] Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever[Jesus called God]. Amen.

[20] 2 Cor 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

[21] Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
[22] Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

[23] Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

[24] Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

[25] Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever[God calls the Son, God]: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

[26] Heb 3:3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

[27] Phi 2:6 Who, being [existing] in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

[28] 1 Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh[Jesus called God], is justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

[29] 1 Tim 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ[Jesus called God], which is our hope;

[30] 1 Tim 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;[The lamb is king of kings, Rev 17:14, Jesus is king of kings, Rev 19:16, God is Lord of Lords Deu 10:17]

[31] Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ[Jesus called God];
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

[32] 2 Pet 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ[Jesus called God]:

[33] 1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life[Jesus called God].

[34] Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings[יהוה/YHWH, Deu 10:17]: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

[35] Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS[יהוה/YHWH, Deu 10:17].

[36] Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be[יהוה/YHWH, Isa 40:10].
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.[יהוה/YHWH, Isa 44:6]

There is one God! The Holy Spirit is called/referred to as God, in scripture, but the Spirit is not the Father or the Son. Acts 5:3-4, Acts 28:25-27.

Der Alte · Oct 9, 2014

Scripture which identify the Holy Spirit as God