OSASers choose to reject Jesus’ warnings about losing salvation!

Bro in Christ said:

Present tense salvation

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AndOne said:

I hope you realize you just contradicted yourself here. And is precisely the point I was trying to make.

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OzSpen said:

But you didn't tell me where I allegedly contradicted myself. That is an unhelpful comment.

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AndOne said:

Sorry to be unhelpful - but the fact remains.....

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Bro in Christ said:

Present tense salvation

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OzSpen said:

This is what happens when you engage in a flaming, provocative statement about me: 'I hope you realize you just contradicted yourself here'.

I'm capable of making contradictory statements as I'm a fallible human being. But when you accuse me that I contradicted myself and give ZERO evidence for your statement, you are engaging in flaming of me.

Oz

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OzSpen said:

So is Heb 11:1-2 not talking about saving faith when it states, 'Hebrews 11:1-2, 'Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2 For by it the people of old received their commendation' (ESV)?

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AndOne said:

Sigh - I'm not flaming you. Please stop with the false accusations. I quoted you in my post. The contradiction is in the quote. If you disagree there is a contradiction I get it - but saying I'm flaming you is pointless unless you do agree there is a contradiction and have no rebuttal to it. Seeing as how I don't have a lot of time on my hands right now I went back and bolded your statements that contradict each other - this is all I can offer - sorry. I suggest you read what you wrote very clearly before you assume the worst about me. Thanks.

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OzSpen said:

So is Heb 11:1-2 not talking about saving faith when it states, 'Hebrews 11:1-2, 'Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2 For by it the people of old received their commendation' (ESV)?

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Bro in Christ said:

Present tense salvation

Believers learning to use what they know ... They fail.. Yet God is always faithful

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Bro in Christ said:

Romans 13:10-14 saved but carnal

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Bro in Christ said:

What about responding to what I posted

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DeaconDean said:

You know, its funny, sozo, from where we get our word for Soteriology, the greek word, is used some 108 times in the New Testament. And in fact, it is used in all three tenses, past, present, and future.

I can take you back to a church, where I was saved in the past. I am currently being saved in the present. And at some point in the future I will be saved.

If a person stops believing, then I believe they never believed in the first place. It was a false belief.

If a persons faith is true and genuine, then after the point of salvation, Jesus tells us He places us in the Father's hand. And no man, not even myself can take me out of His hand.

If I can do that, by simply stopping to believe, I am more powerful than God!

And I am certianly not that.

I am but a worm.

God Bless

Till all are one.

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JLB777 said:

Jesus taught us some will believe for a while.

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

Jesus taught that some would believe for a while.

Verse 12 teaches that believe = saved.

...lest they should believe and be saved.

Verse 13 teaches us there are some who did in fact believe, but only for a while. These turned away in time of persecution.

Believe for a while = saved for a while.

Jesus did not teach us these never believed, but rather believed for a while.

JLB

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If a man may be confident of any one thing in this world, he may be confident of this very thing, that in whomsoever, whether in himself, or in any other, God hath begun a good work, he will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ (Phil. 1:9); and that all the true Israel of God shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation (Isa. 45:17); and that not one of them shall eternally perish.

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Among the doctrines of grace, this one ranks right up there among the top debated ones. To most Baptists, most of the Refromed faith, and all of the Calvinistic faith, believe in the Perseverance of the Saints.

However, in todays society, with liberalism running rampant, and with the ever push of Arminian beliefs, this doctrine is quickly being refuted and denied.

Many today hear this and John Calvin automatically springs to mind. With the T.U.I.L.P. outline. Many however fail to take into account where Calvin got his premise. Just like Predestination, people often link this doctrine to Calvin, yet they fail to realize that these two doctrines were originally formulated by a Bishop of the Roman Catholic church.

Augustine, Bishop of Hippo, first wrote treasties on both these subjects. Augustine wrote: "On the Gift of Perseverance" sometime between AD 428-429.

But in reality, the doctrine goes even further back than this. Isaiah the Prophet is first mentioned in 2 Kings 19:2:

"And he sent Eliakim, which was over the household, and Shebna the scribe, and the elders of the priests, covered with sackcloth, to Isaiah the prophet the son of Amoz." (KJV)

You may ask why I bring this out. It is because that with Isaiah, we see the forumation of the doctrine of preseverance. It is Isaiah that states:

"And even to your old age I am he; and even to hoar hairs will I carry you: I have made, and I will bear; even I will carry, and will deliver you." -Isa. 46:4 (KJV)

And it is Jeremiah, Isaiah's contemporary, who said:

"And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me." -Jer. 32:40 (KJV)

The core of the doctrine of the Perseverance of the saints hinges mainly around several passages in the New Testament.

In the book of John we have two passages:

"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day." -Jn. 6:39 (KJV)

And:

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." -Jn. 10:27-29 (KJV)

Also at the heart of this doctrine is the belief in one of the attributes of God, His omnipotence.

In recent years there has been the Judas controversy where the belief was that Jesus worked with Judas to bring about God's plan. However, this writer see's this as nothing more than another attempt by Satan to spread unbelief among believers. Jesus ws given 12 disciples for his ministry. And according to our Saviors own words, He lost none but the son of perdition. (cf. Jn. 17:12) If Judas was a real disciple to begin with, how is it Jesus associated him with being a son of the devil?

Judas could betry Jesus because even though he was one of the twelve, he was not "saved" to begin with.

Jesus taught that all that the Father gavce Him, He would lose none, and of them, He would raise them in the last day. This certainly applies to the disciples, but more importantly, it applies to the believer today.

In John 10, we outlined:

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."

True sheep of the Lord, know His voice. They know the voice of their shepherd and they will not follow after the voice of another. Jesus stated that He gave to them eternal life. Eternal life is not eternal life if it can be gained in the morning, lost by noon time, and gained in the evening. We shal never perish and no man can take us out of Jesus' hand. Jesus states that since the Father gave them to Him, the Father is greater than Him, and no man is able to pluck them out of the Father's hand.

The reason I taked of God's omnipotence (all-powerful) was to bring out the importance of John 10:26. No man can take us out of the Father's hand, not even ourselves, for if we could, then God would cease to be omnipotent because man would be more powerful than the Lord God.

The Apostle Paul taught us:

"Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: " -Phil. 1:6 (KJV)

God began a work in the believer beginning at the point of salvation, and no matter what, God will see it through to fruition.

Now we know that in this life, just because we are saved, born-again, that sinning will not stop. And we also recognize that certain incidents in our lives may cause us to doubt our faith, and may even cause us to drift back out into an old sinful lifestyle.

However, just becase one can and often does sin, does not mean we (born-again, blood bought, saved, believers) will be left in that condition. As in the parable of the prodigal son, we may drift back out into sin, and we may endure "spiritual" spankings from the Lord, but God in His infinate mercy, will call us back into the fold.

Hebrews 12: 6-8 tells us that God's own sons, whom He loves, if they drift away, they will receive punishement, and if they don't, then they are not sons:

"For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons."

And if we go astray, we can be assured the the Good Shepherd will come and find us:

"How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray." -Mt. 18:12-13 (KJV)

And I can testify personally that the Good Shepherd indeed came and found me when I went astray.

And through it all, it is a testimony to God's Sovereignty that while we have put forth an effort, ultimately, it is not our doings, but God's that we are kept in Him:

"Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." -1 Pet. 1:5 (KJV)

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DeaconDean said:

You know, its funny, sozo, from where we get our word for Soteriology, the greek word, is used some 108 times in the New Testament. And in fact, it is used in all three tenses, past, present, and future.

I can take you back to a church, where I was saved in the past. I am currently being saved in the present. And at some point in the future I will be saved.

If a person stops believing, then I believe they never believed in the first place. It was a false belief.

If a persons faith is true and genuine, then after the point of salvation, Jesus tells us He places us in the Father's hand. And no man, not even myself can take me out of His hand.

If I can do that, by simply stopping to believe, I am more powerful than God!

And I am certianly not that.

I am but a worm.

God Bless

Till all are one.

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